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A SHORT narrative of the circumstances which 
u occasioned and accompanied this conference will 
be desirable for the general reader. 

King James the First exposed himself during the 
whole of his reign to much observation on the part 
of the people in general, and to repeated complaints on 
the part of his parliaments, for the forbearance and 
clemency that he exercised towards his Roman catholic 
subjects. From the commencement of his reign, when 
he signified that he felt himself under personal a obli- 
gation to the pontiff, to the last year of it, when he 
received from the two houses of parliament " a b sting- 
ing petition against the papists," whether he was em- 

a Wilkins, Concilia, vol. iv. p. 377. " We acknowledge our- 
selves personally so much beholding to the now bishop of Rome 
[Clement VIII.] for his kind offices and private temporal carriage 
towards us in many things." Cornp. Rush worth, vol. i. p. 166. 
Hallam, Const. Hist. vol. i. p. 437, note. 

b Rushworth, vol. i. p. 140. 

a 2 


ployed in thwarting the. designs of the puritans, or 
negociating for the marriage of his son with the infanta 
of Spain, he continually kept alive suspicions of his 
Romish tendencies, which neither his frequent pro- 
fessions of neutrality, nor his learned treatises against 
the usurpations and corruptions of popery, were suffi- 
cient to overcome. Whatever might be the specu- 
lative opinions of the king, it is clear that the character 
of his mind, and the principles of his government, civil 
and ecclesiastical, were in accordance with the genuine 
spirit of the Vatican ; and it was natural for his subjects 
to suppose that if he could have obtained full security 
for the acknowledgment of his supremacy as a sove- 
reign, he would willingly have surrendered many of the 
theological points at issue, in order to a readmission 
into the Romish communion. 

Now had circumstances been much less favourable to 
the Romanists, their wily policy would still have found 
materials and opportunities for converting them to their 
own advantage; but at a time when the powerful appeals, 
that they could make to the fears and imaginations of 
their hearers, had the appearance of being more reason- 
able from the utter want of unity among the protestants, 
and were actually more attractive, owing to the alleged 
favour of the court, they disregarded the severe penal- 
ties of the laws, and proclaimed openly the greater 
security of their profession of faith, and the rapid 
increase of their numbers. The king indeed still 
denounced, as crimes against the state, such offences as 
exercising the functions of a Romish priest, seducing 
his subjects from the religion established, and scandal- 
izing his actual government ; but his real intentions 
were interpreted much more from his acts of forbear- 
ance than from his threats of punishment, and in order 


to make his views in this respect clearly understood, 
his protestant subjects were told that they had no right 
" to c argue ' a concrete ad abstractum,' or to infer that 
he countenanced the Romish religion, because he con- 
ferred favours on the papists." 

Among the emissaries whom the Romanists em- 


ployed at this time in England, one of the most active 
and intelligent was a Jesuit of the name of Piersey, 
who has been better known under the assumed appella- 
tion of Fisher d . He had obtained admission to the 
countess, mother of Villiers, who was afterwards duke 
of Buckingham, and had made some progress in con- 
verting her to the Romish faith, in the hope that 
through the influence of her son, she might be able to 
obtain further indulgences from the court in favour of the 
Roman catholics. The duke of Buckingham, anxious 
that justice should be done to the whole of the im- 
portant argument, requested Dr. Francis White 6 , who 
had obtained a reputation, from his sermons preached at 
St. Paul's, for skill in the Romish controversy, to meet 
the Jesuit, and maintain the cause of protestantism, in 
the presence of the countess, the lord keeper Williams, 
and himself. An occurrence of so much interest, con- 

c See a letter of the lord keeper Williams in the Cabala, p. 294. 

d He was a native of Yorkshire, and after having studied at 
Rome and Lou vain, became a Jesuit in the year 1594. He soon 
afterwards employed himself in England in making proselytes, 
and was convicted and banished. He returned, however, as soon 
as he found that it could be done safely, in the reign of James I., 
and is said to have died at the end of the year 1641. Biblioth. 
Script. Societ. Jes. p. 263. Ed. Antv. 1643. 

e Dr. F. White, rector of St. Peter's, Cornhill, and chaplain to 
the king, became dean of Carlisle in 1622 ; bishop of Carlisle in 
1626; bishop of Norwich in 1628; and bishop of Ely in 1631. 
He died in February, 1637. 

a 3 


nected so directly with the person of the favourite, was 
soon communicated to the king ; and a second con- 
ference was accordingly arranged, at which the king 
himself was present, and many particular questions of 
theology were discussed. 

But there Avere two important points in which neither 
the king nor the countess was satisfied with the manage- 
ment of this conference. The king observed, that Fisher 
had been skilful, and not altogether unsuccessful, in 
replying to his opponent ; but had not in the same 
degree established, by positive proof, any propositions of 
his own. The countess complained that nothing had 
been said respecting the claim which the Romanists 
make to a visible and infallible church ; a claim which 
she seemed to consider as necessary for the existence of 
a church, and which, in weak and wavering minds, has 
ever inspired a feeling in favour of the communion of 
Rome. For this latter purpose it was determined that 
a third conference should be held ; and Dr. Laud, then 
bishop of St. David's, who was distinguished for his 
theological learning, and had recently given the king- 
evidence of his great skill in composition, was appointed 
to conduct the argument on the side of protestantism. 
To satisfy also the mind of the king as to the capacity 
of the Romanists for positive proof, he proposed nine 
questions to the Jesuit, on which he required to have 
distinct and categorical answers, prefacing them with 
this strong inducement, that " he desired satisfaction on 
some of the principal points, which withheld him from 
joining unto the church of Rome." 

On the 24th of May, 1622, the third conference took 
place, between bishop Laud on the one part, and Fisher 
on the other, in the presence of the same royal and 
noble personages, and with the addition of others, and 

THE EDITION OF 1839. vii 

more especially of the lord keeper Williams, who occa- 
sionally took part in the discussion. 

The bishop states in his preface that he had " no 
instruction at all what should be the ground of this 
third conference, nor the full time of four and twenty 
hours to bethink himself;" and this is in accordance 
with the entries f which he made at the same time in 
his private diary. But it is also clear from the same 
authority, that he was acquainted with the earlier part 
of the discussion, and in some degree a party concerned 
in it, as it was going on ; and there can be little doubt 
as to his perfect and ready knowledge of the whole 
subject matter of the controversy. 

It appears that no notes were taken at the time by 
Dr. White, of the two first conferences, and that after- 

f The following are the entries made in his diary in connection 
with this conference. 

1622. April 23. Being the Tuesday in Easter week, the king sent 
for me, and set me into a course about the countess of Buck- 
ingham, who about that time was wavering in point of 

April 24. Dr. Francis White and I met about this. 

May 10. I went to the court to Greenwich, and came back in 
coach with the lord marquess Buckingham. My promise then 
to give his lordship the discourse he spake to me for. 

May 19. I delivered my lord marquess Buckingham the paper 
concerning the difference between the church of England and 
Rome, in point of salvation, &c. 

May 23. My first speech with the countess of Buckingham. 

May 24. The conference between Mr. Fisher, a Jesuit, and 
myself, before the lord marquess Buckingham, and the 
countess, his mother. I had much speech with her after. 

June 9. Being Whit-Sunday, my lord marquess Buckingham was 
pleased to enter upon a near respect to me. The particulars 
are not for paper. 

June 15. I became C. to my lord of Buckingham. 
\ a 4 


wards, when he drew up a memorial of them, he acknow- 
ledged that he s" did not exactly remember all the 
passages of the disputation." It appears also that 
bishop Laud drew up a narrative of the third con- 
ference, during the Michaelmas term of 1622, but that 
in his case no doubt was expressed as to its perfect 
accuracy. As these papers were not published till the 
year 1624, it is necessary to explain why so long a 
silence should have been observed, on subjects too of 
so much interest and importance. 

Although a strict injunction had been given that no 
account of these conferences should be published, which 
had not been seen and approved by both the parties 
engaged in them, Fisher did not neglect the oppor- 
tunity they afforded him of circulating a relation of 
what had past, and expressing himself to the great 
disadvantage of his opponents. It is not necessary to 
suppose that he misrepresented them designedly ; as in 
a controversy of that nature it was not possible that a 
person so educated, who had also taken so prominent a 
part in the dispute, should be able to hold the balance 
truly. The fact however was, that the arguments on 
the Protestant side appeared, as he represented them, 
to be extremely " unskilful and childish h ;" and the 
whole discussion was exhibited in a manner disgraceful 
to his opponents and creditable to himself. This was 
in itself a sufficient reason with bishop Laud and Dr. 
White for setting forth, on their side, as faithful narra- 
tives as they could, of the three conferences ; and this 
reason was much strengthened by the results of other 
disputations held about the same time, which the Jesuits, 
both in England and abroad, were describing according 

S See White's preface, p. 3. h White's preface, p. 3. 

THE EDITION OF 1839. ix 

to their views of them, and employing for their own 
benefit. On the 27th of June, 1623, the same Dr. 
White was engaged in another discussion i of the same 
nature with Fisher, assisted by Dr. Featley on the one 
side, and a Jesuit, of the name of Sweet, on the other, 
at the house of Sir Humfrey Lynde, and in the presence 
of many of his friends. This discussion led to the pub- 
lication of many letters and pamphlets, in which the 
Jesuits boasted of their success, and treated their oppo- 
nents in a manner calculated to do much mischief, in 
common minds, to the Protestant cause. But it was 
still thought by bishop Laud and Dr. White to be too 
early to publish their respective narratives. They had 
not yet examined the answers which Fisher had been 
preparing to the king's nine questions, and they natur- 
ally wished the whole transaction to be included in one 
work, embracing the entire controversy, and giving 
them the advantage of appearing in the way of refuta- 
tion, as well as in the more laborious work of positive 

The subjects proposed by king James to Fisher were 
the following. 1. The worship of images. 2. The 
prayers and offering oblations to the blessed Virgin 
Mary. 3. Worshipping and invocation of saints and 
angels. 4. The Liturgy and private prayers for the 
ignorant, in an unknown tongue. 5. Repetitions of 
Pater Nosters, Aves, and Creeds, especially affixing a 
kind of merit to the number of them. 6. The doc- 
trine of transubstantiation. 7. Communion under one 
kind, and the abetting of it by concomitancy. 8. Works 
of supererogation, especially with reference unto the 

i An account of it was published by Dr. Featley, under the 
title, "The Romish Fisher caught and held in his own net." 
London, 1624. 


treasure of the church. 9- The opinion of deposing 
kings, and giving away their kingdoms by papal power, 
whether directly or indirectly. To these questions 
Fisher drew up his answer separately; but he pru- 
dently and dexterously omitted the last, alleging as 
his excuse, that " the constitutions of his order in se- 
verest manner charge him no ways to meddle in state- 
matters or in princes' affairs ; much less under pretence 
of religion, to attempt any thing or to consent to any 
enterprize that may disturb the quiet and tranquillity 
of kings and kingdoms." 

This work of Fisher was not published by him in 
the first instance, but was delivered to king James in 
writing, and was afterwards transferred, according to 
the king's original intention, to Dr. White, to be exa- 
mined and answered. Besides the arguments on the 
eight first questions, the work contained a preliminary 
dissertation on the rule of faith, the sum and substance 
of the two earlier conferences in which the writer had 
been engaged with Dr. White, and nine charges of re- 
markable error brought against the church of England, 
as a counterpoise to the nine questions propounded by 
the king. To this work of Fisher Dr. White sent 
forth his Reply, in April, 1624, reciting the whole of 
Fisher's work in distinct portions, and adding his own 
comments and answers, with copious quotations of the 
authorities on which he relied. At the same time, and 
as an accompaniment to Dr. White's Reply, was pub- 
lished, " An Answer 1 to Mr. Fisher's Relation of the 
Third Conference," drawn up in reality, as he after- 
wards acknowledged, by bishop Laud, but ascribed in 
the title-page to R. B. [Richard Baylie,] the bishop's 

1 It is noticed thus in the Diary, " April 16, Friday. My 
conference with Fisher the Jesuit, printed, came forth." 

THE EDITION OF 1839. xi 

Leaving then Dr. White's Reply, with the many 
publications from Fisher and others to which it gave 
occasion, our attention must now be confined to the 
third conference, and the Narrative of it which had 
been published by bishop Laud. 

This Narrative naturally attracted much notice, and 
was generally assigned to its real author. The most 
important answer to it was a book published in the 
year 1626, and written, as was believed, by Fisher him- 
self, under the assumed initials, A. C. Fisher, though 
he had fearlessly given his own name or initials in 
other instances, felt it necessary to be cautious in at- 
tacking an opponent of so much authority, and the 
more so, as he did not intend to be very scrupulous in 
his own mode of warfare. He used initials therefore, 
which would not lead to a discovery, and which he 
seems to have employed in another case in the year 
1623, when he published 111 his account of the Con- 
ference, held in the house of Sir Humfrey Lynde. But 
for many years Dr. Laud, who in the year 1633 be- 
came archbishop of Canterbury, took no further notice 
of his antagonist. Oppressed by sickness, overwhelmed 
with public business, or mourning over the miseries of 
his country, he could not give either time or attention 
to a subject, in which, however deeply he was inter- 
ested in it, and however earnestly he was solicited by 
others to undertake it, his services were not indispen- 
sably required. But having at length received from 
king Charles an expression of his wish, that the whole 
question, with Fisher's farther observations, should be 
fully and finally discussed by him, he reconstructed his 
work in the enlarged and amended form in which we 

m Under this title, " An Answer to a Pamphlet entituled, 
' The Fisher catched in his owne net/ by A. C., 1623." 


now have it, and published it in February 11 , 1639- It 
was a time at which the archbishop still felt himself 
at liberty to say, " The church of England (God be 
thanked) thrives happily under a gracious prince, and 
well understands that a parliament cannot be called 
at all times ; and that there are visible judges besides 
the law-books, and one supreme (long may he be, and 
be happy) to settle all temporal differences :" and yet 
within a few days afterwards (February 2?th, 1639-) 
the king issued his declaration P of war against his 
northern subjects, which, in the distracted temper of 
those times, led by gradual but certain consequence 
to the overthrow of the church, the murder of the 
sovereign, and the destruction of all rational and 
established freedom. 

The Archbishop's edition of 1639 was reprinted in 
the year 1673, and again in 1686 ; but I have not 
met with a copy of any more recent impression. 
The initials used in the course of this Relation are 

33. Bishop Laud. 

$. Fisher the Jesuit. 

D. W. Dr. Francis White who disputed with 
Fisher in the two first Conferences. 

L. K. Lord Keeper Williams, bishop of Lincoln, 
who took part occasionally in the dispute. 

A. C. The initials under which Fisher replied to 
bishop Laud's first printed account of his Conference. 

There are two points connected with the contents 
of this work, on which it may be right to offer a few 

n It is noticed thus in his Diary. " Feb. 10. My book 
against Fisher the Jesuit was printed, and this day, being Sunday, 
I delivered a copy to his majesty." 

o Seep. 175. 

P Rymer, Foedera, vol. xx. p. 290. 

THE EDITION OF 1839. xiii 

observations. The one bears upon the question of the 
divine authority of the scriptures, the other upon their 
exclusive authority. 

In the Archbishops' Preface we have the following- 
passage. " According to Christ's institution, the scrip- 
ture, where it is plain, should guide the church ; and 
the church, where there is doubt or difficulty, should 
expound the scripture; yet so, as neither the scrip- 
ture should be forced, nor the church so bound up, 
as that upon just and further evidence, she may not 
revise that which in any case hath slipt by her." Now 
this rule, when compared with the 6th Article of 
the Church of England, appears to be expressed with 
too much latitude in favour of the church. If in 
endeavouring to interpret scripture on any point of 
faith, the result is doubt or difficulty, it would seem 
to be evident that, so far forth, the point in question 
was " neither read therein nor could be proved there- 
by," and that the church could not require that point 
as necessary to salvation. It is true, indeed, that 
different minds, according to their mode of training, 
will form different judgments in a given case as to 
the conclusiveness of the proof from scripture; and 
that the one party will appeal, however unprofitably, 
to the authority of the church, in order to supply the 
deficiency of proof which has been alleged by the 
other. But it is also true, that the party which feels 
the doubt will always have recourse to the rule of the 
6th Article in justification of its scruples, and the 
dispute will terminate in the same difference of belief 
in which it was begun. The best, and indeed the 
common, illustration of the case is to be found in the 
practice of infant-baptism ; and it is the more desir- 
able to adduce it, because it can be given in the words 


of the Archbishop himself, and will shew, by a definite 
and appropriate instance, in what manner, when apply- 
ing his own rule, he limited and corrected it. " ^1 
answer to the instance which A. C. makes concerning 
the baptism of infants, that it may be concluded 
directly (and let A. C. judge, whether not demonstra- 
tively) out of scripture, both that infants ought to be 
baptized, and that baptism is necessary to their salva- 
tion." And again : " r l will add this concerning this 
particular, the baptizing of infants, that the church 
received this by tradition from the apostles. By tradi- 
tion. And what then? May it not directly be con- 
cluded out of scripture, because it was delivered to the 
church by way of tradition ? I hope A. C. will never 
say so." So then in his judgment, though the practice 
of infant-baptism was received by tradition, it rests 
for its authority upon scripture. Tradition, therefore, 
cannot give the proof, although it may be employed 
in the way of suggestion before the proof is sought, 
or in the way of confirmation when the proof is already 

The other point to which it may be proper to advert 
is contained in the following statement. " s The way 
lies thus (as far as it appears to me) ; The credit of 
scripture to be divine resolves finally into that faith 
which we have touching God himself, and in the same 
order. For as that, so this hath three main grounds, to 
which all other are reducible. The first is, the tradi- 
tion of the church ; and this leads us to a reverend 
persuasion of it. The second is, the light of nature ; 
and this shews us how necessary such a revealed learn- 
ing is, and that no other way it can be had ; nay more, 
that all proofs brought against any point of faith neither 

q See p. 45. r See p. 48. See p. 94. 

THE EDITION OF 1839. xv 

are nor can be demonstrations, but soluble arguments. 
The third is, the light of the text itself, in conversing 
wherewith we meet with the Spirit of God inwardly 
inclining our hearts, and sealing the full assurance of 
the sufficiency of all three unto us. And then, and not 
before, we are certain that the scripture is the word of 
God, both by divine and by infallible proof: but our 
certainty is by faith, and so voluntary, not by know- 
ledge of such principles as in the light of nature can 
enforce assent whether we will or no." This expla- 
nation will scarcely satisfy a reader of discriminating 
mind. The question here is clearly not respecting the 
time or order in which the minds of persons in a Chris- 
tian country become sensible of the authority of scrip- 
ture, but respecting the method and course of inquiry 
by which such authority is at any time to be ascer- 
tained: it is therefore not a question respecting the 
force of education or the teaching of the Church, but 
respecting the investigation of evidence, and the gradual 
construction of proof. The process then in such a case 
is this. The Christian scriptures are records of past 
events, and must be tested and interpreted by the 
common methods by which the genuineness and mean- 
ing of any documents of like date and language are 
ascertained. These steps fully secured, the contents 
are then to be examined, as to the degree of credit 
that attaches to them. Thus far the inquiry is one in 
which a man's judgment must decide for him ; his own 
judgment altogether and exclusively, if he believe that 
he is competent to the task of examination ; and again 
his own judgment in deference to that of others, if he 
is conscious that he is not competent ; but still in both 
cases, his own judgment, whether he exercise it inde- 
pendently of others, or willingly place it under their 


guidance, after acknowledging his own insufficiency and 
approving of their fitness. It is the same process 
which would be followed with respect to any historical 
records ; but with this difference, that there is no other 
history whatever of remote events, which is attested 
by so many kinds and so high a degree of evidence, 
derived from earlier adaptations, from contemporary 
and unimpeachable witnesses, from corroborative and 
traditionary testimony, from the results that have been 
impressed on all succeeding times, and more especially 
from the clear and pervading tokens of God's provi- 
dential government, all of which converge to the same 
point of moral demonstration. But now another prin- 
ciple interposes. The contents of these scriptures shew 
not only the trust-worthiness of the narrative, but also 
miraculous agency and a divine commission; and the 
question accordingly is so far changed, that though, as 
matter of evidence, it has hitherto been a case for pri- 
vate judgment, as matter of teaching it has now become 
a case for religious faith. On principles strictly ra- 
tional, the mind must now surrender itself to the teach- 
ing of the scriptures as to a supreme and infallible 
authority ; still exercising its judgment as to the mean- 
ing of that teaching, but on its own principles deferring 
to the judgment of those, whether individuals or bodies 
of men, who have had the best means of information, 
and have given distinct and authoritative opinions on 
the subject. 

The Archbishop's deliberate opinion on the part that 
he had taken in this controversy may be given in the 
words delivered by him on his trial, with the addition 
that he made during his imprisonment in the Tower. 
" My s book against Fisher hath been charged against 

8 History of the Troubles and Trial, c. by Wharton, p. 418. 

THE EDITION OF 1839. xvii 

me : where the argument must lie thus ; I have endea- 
voured to advance Popery, because I have written 
against it. And with what strength I have written, 
I leave to posterity to judge, when the envy, which 
now overloads me, shall be buried with me. This I will 
say with St. Gregory Nazianzen, (whose success at Con- 
stantinople was not much unlike mine here, save that 
his life was not sought,) ' *I never laboured for peace to 
the wrong and detriment of Christian verity,' nor I 
hope ever shall. [And let the church of England look 
to it ; for in great humility I crave to write this (though 
then was no time to speak it) that the church of Eng- 
land must leave the way it is now going, and come 
back to that way of defence which I have followed in 
my book, or she shall never be able to justify her sepa- 
ration from the church of Rome]." 


March 16, 1839. 

Ovre elprjvfvoiJifv Kara TOV \6yov TTJS aXrjOfias ixfrtevrfs n 8ia d6av 
. Greg. Naz. Orat. 32. vol. i. p. 518. Ed. Par. 1630. 







THIS tract will need patronage as great as may be had; 
that is yours. Yet, when I first printed part of it, I 
presumed not to ask any, but thrust it out at the end of 
another's labours, that it might seem at least to have the 
same patron, your royal father of blessed memory, as the 
other work on which this attended had. But now I humbly 
beg for it your Majesty's patronage, and leave withal that I 
may declare to your most excellent Majesty the cause why this 
Tract was then written ; why it stayed so long before it looked 
upon the light ; why it was not then thought fit to go alone, 
but rather be led abroad by the former work ; why it comes 
now forth both with alteration and addition ; and why this 
addition made not more haste to the press than it hath done. 
The cause why this discourse was written was this : I was, 
at the time of these conferences with Mr. Fisher, bishop of St. 
David's ; and not only directed, but commanded by my blessed 
master, king James, to this conference with him. He, a when 
we met, began with a great protestation of seeking the truth 
only, and that for itself. And certainly, truth, especially in 
religion, is so to be sought, or not to be found. He that seeks 
it with a Roman b bias or any other, will run counter when 

a May 24, 1622. August, lib. n". cont. Adversarium Legis 

b One of these biases is an aversion et Prophet. And it is an easy transi- 

from all such truth as fits not our tion for a man that is averse from, to 

ends. And aver sits a veritatis luce, ob become adverse to the truth. 
hoc luci veritatis adversus (fit), &c. S. 


he comes near it, and not find it, though he come within 
kenning of it. And therefore I did most heartily wish I could 
have found the Jesuit upon that fair way he protested to go. 
After the conference ended, I went, whither my duty called 
me, to my diocess, not suspecting any thing should be made 
public that was both commanded and acted in private. For 
W. I., the publisher of the Relation of the first Conference 
with Dr. White, (the late reverend and learned bishop of 
Ely,) c confesses plainly, " That Mr. Fisher was straitly 
charged upon his allegiance from his majesty that then was, 
not to set out or publish what passed in some of these con- 
ferences till he gave license, and until Mr. Fisher and they 
might meet, and agree and confirm under their hands what 
was said on both sides. 1 ' He says further, " That d Mr. 
Fisher went to Dr. White's house to know what he would say 
about the Relation which he had set out." So then, belike 
Mr. Fisher had set out the Relation of that conference before 
he went to Dr. White to speak about it. And this, not- 
withstanding the king's restraint upon him upon his alle- 
giance. Yet to Dr. White, it is said, he went, but to what 
other end than to put a scorn upon him, I cannot see. For he 
went to his house to know what he would say about that Rela- 
tion of the conference which he had set out before. In my 
absence from London, Mr. Fisher used me as well. For with 
the same care of his allegiance and no more, e he spread 

c Tn the epistle to the reader. a most plain confession by A. C. of that 
d Ibid. which he struggles to deny. He says, 
e These words were in my former " he did not spread papers." What 
epistle. And A.C. checks at them in then? What? Why, he did but deliver 
defence of the Jesuit, and says, '' That copies. Why, but doth not he that de- 
the Jesuit did not at all so much as in livers copies (for instance, of a libel) 
speech, and much less in papers, pub- spread it ? Yea, but he delivered but a 
lish this or either of the other two con- very few copies. Be it so : I do not 
ferences with Dr. White, till he was say how many he spread. He confesses 
forced unto it by false reports given out the Jesuit delivered some, though very 
to his private disgrace, and the preju- few ; and he that delivers any spreads 
dice of the catholic cause. Nor then it abroad. For what can he tell, when 
did he spread papers abroad, but only the copies are once out of his power, 
delivered a very few copies to special how many may copy them out and 
friends, and this not with an intent to spread them further ? Yea, but he de- 
calumniate the bishop," &c. A. C. in livered them to special friends. Be it 
his Preface before his Relation of this so too : the more special friends they 
Conference. Truly, I knew of no re- were to him, the less indifferent would 
ports then given out to the prejudice of they be to me, perhaps my more special 
the Jesuit's either person or cause. I enemies. Yea, but all this was without 
was in a corner of the kingdom where an intent to calumniate me. Well, be 
I heard little. But howsoever, here is that so too. But if I be calumniated 


abroad papers of this conference, full enough of partiality to 
his cause, and more full of calumny against me. Hereupon I 
was in a manner forced to give Mr. Fisher's Relation of the 
Conference an answer, and to publish it. Though for some 
reasons, and those then approved by authority, it was thought 
fit I should set it out in my chaplain's name, R. B., and not 
in my own. To which I readily submitted. 

There was a cause also, why at the first the discourse upon 
this conference stayed so long before it could endure to be 
pressed. For the conference was in May, 1622. And Mr. 
Fisher's paper was scattered and made common, so common, 
that a copy was brought to me (being none of his special 
friends), before Michaelmas. And yet this discourse was not 
printed till April, 1624. Now that you may know how this 
happened, I shall say for myself, it was not my idleness, nor 
my unwillingness to right both myself and the cause against 
the Jesuit and the paper which he had spread, that occa- 
sioned this delay. For I had then most honourable wit- 
nesses, and have some yet living, that this discourse (such as 
it was when A. C. nibbled at it) was finished long before I 
could persuade myself to let it come into public view. And 
this was caused partly by my own backwardness to deal with 
these men, whom I have ever observed to be great pretenders 
for truth and unity, but yet such as will admit neither, 
unless they and their faction may prevail in all, as if no 
reformation had been necessary ; and partly because there 
were about the same time three conferences held with Fisher. 
Of these, this was the third ; and could not therefore con- 
veniently come abroad into the world, till the two former 
were ready to lead the way ; which till that time they were 

And this is in part the reason also, why this tract crept 
into the end of a larger work. For since that work con- 
tained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the 
two former conferences, and that this third in divers points 
concurred with them and depended on them; I could not 
think it substantive enough to stand alone. But besides this 

thereby, his intention will not help it. me, I leave to the indifferent reader of 
And whether the copies which he deli- this discourse to judge. 
vered have not in them calumny against 


affinity between the conferences, I was willing to have it pass 
as silently as it might, at the end of another work, and so 
perhaps little to be looked after ; because I could not hold it 
worthy, nor can I yet, of that great duty and service which 
I owe to my dear mother the church of England. 

There is a cause also why it looks now abroad again with 
alteration and addition : and it is fit I should give your 
Majesty an account of that too. This tract was first printed 
in the year 1624. And in the year 1626, another Jesuit, or 
the same, under the name of A. C., printed a Relation of this 
conference, and therein took exceptions to some particulars, 
and endeavoured to confute some things delivered therein by 
me. Now being in years, and unwilling to die in the Jesuit's 
debt, I have in this second edition done as much for him, and 
somewhat more. For he did but skip up and down, and 
labour to pick a hole here and there, where he thought he 
might fasten ; and where it was too hard for him, let it alone. 
But I have gone through with him, and I hope given a full 
confutation ; or at least such a bone to gnaw, as may shake 
his teeth, if he look not to it. And of my addition to this 
discourse, this is the cause ; but of my alteration of some 
things in it, this : A. C. his curiosity to winnow me made 
me in a more curious manner fall to sifting of myself, and 
that which had formerly passed my pen. And though (I bless 
God for it) I found no cause to alter any thing that belonged 
either to the substance or course of the conference, yet 
somewhat I did find which needed better and clearer expres- 
sion ; and that I have altered, well knowing I must expect 
curious observers on all hands. 

Now, why this additional answer to the Relation of A. C. 
came no sooner forth, hath a cause too, and I shall truly 
represent it. A. C. his Relation of the Conference was set 
out 1 626. I knew not of it in some years after. For it was 
printed among divers other things of like nature, either by 
Mr. Fisher himself, or his friend A. C. When I saw it, I 
read it over carefully, and found myself not a little wronged 
in it; but the church of England, and indeed the cause of 
religion, much more. I was before this time, by your 
Majesty's great grace and undeserved favour, made dean of 
your Majesty's chapel royal, and a counsellor of state, and 


hereby, as the occasions of those times were, made too much 
a stranger to my books. Yet for all my busy employments, 
it was still in my thoughts to give A. C. an answer. But 
then I fell into a most dangerous fever; and though it 
pleased God, beyond all hope, to restore me to health, yet 
long I was before I recovered such strength as might enable 
me to undertake such a service. And since that time how I 
have been detained, and in a manner forced upon other many, 
various and great occasions, your Majesty knows best. And 
how of late I have been used by the scandalous and scurrilous 
pens of some bitter men, (whom I heartily beseech God to 
forgive,) the world knows : little leisure and less encourage- 
ment given me to answer a Jesuit, or set upon other services, 
while I am under the prophet's affliction, f between the mouth 
that speaks wickedness, and the tongue that sets forth deceit, 
and slander me as thick as if I were not their own mother's 
son. In the midst of these libellous outcries against me, 
some divines of great note and worth in the church came to 
me, one by one, and no one knowing of the other's coming, (as 
to me they protested,) and persuaded with me to reprint this 
Conference in my own name. This they thought would vin- 
dicate my reputation, were it generally known to be mine. I 
confess I looked round about these men and their motion ; 
and at last, my thoughts working much upon themselves, I 
began to persuade myself that I had been too long diverted 
from this necessary work : and that perhaps there might be 
in voce hominum tuba Dei, in the still voice of men the loud 
trumpet of God, which sounds many ways, sometimes to the 
ears and sometimes to the hearts of men, and by means 
which they think not of. And as sSt. Augustine speaks, a 
word of God there is, quod nunquam tacet, sed non semper au~ 
ditur, which though it be never silent, yet is not always 
heard. That it is never silent, is his great mercy ; and that 
it is not always heard, is not the least of our misery. Upon 
this motion I took time to deliberate ; and had scarce time 

f Psalm 1. 19, 20. astonishment, yet believed him not: 

g S. Aug. Serai. 63. de Diversis, c. Luke ii. 47. And the Word then 

10. He speaks of Christ disputing in spake to them by a means they thought 

the temple with the elders of the Jews, not of, namely, per Filium Dei in 

And they heard Christ, the essential puero, by the Son of God himself under 

Word of the Father, with admiration to the vail of our human nature. 


for that, much less for the work. Yet at last to every of 
these men I gave this answer : That Mr. Fisher, or A. C. for 
him, had been busy with my former discourse, and that I 
would never reprint that, unless I might gain time enough to 
answer that which A. C. had charged afresh both upon me 
and the cause. While my thoughts were thus at work, your 
Majesty fell upon the same thing, and was graciously pleased 
not to command, but to wish me to reprint this Conference, 
and in mine own name ; and this openly at the council-table 
in Michaelmas term, 1637. I did not hold it fit to deny, 
having in all the course of my service obeyed your Majesty's 
honourable and just motions as commands; but craved 
leave to shew what little leisure I had to do it, and what 
inconveniences might attend upon it. When this did not 
serve to excuse me, I humbly submitted to that, which I hope 
was God's motion in your Majesty's. And having thus laid 
all that concerns this discourse before your gracious and most 
sacred Majesty, I most humbly present you with the book 
itself, which as I heartily pray you to protect, so do I wholly 
submit it to the church of England, with my prayers for 
her prosperity, and my wishes that I were able to do her 
better service. 

I have thus acquainted your Majesty with all occasions, 
which both formerly and now again have led this tract into 
the light ; in all which I am a faithful relater of all passages, 
but am not very well satisfied who is now my adversary. 
Mr. Fisher was at the conference ; since that, I find A. C. 
at the print. And whether these be two or but one Jesuit 
I know not, since scarce one amongst them goes under one 
name. But for my own part (and the error is not great, if I 
mistake) I think they are one, and that one, Mr. Fisher. 
That which induces me to think so is, first, the great inward- 
ness of A. C. with Mr. Fisher, which is so great, as may well 
be thought to neighbour upon identity. Secondly, the style 
of A. C. is so like Mr. Fisher's, that I doubt it was but one 
A. C. p. 67. and the same hand that moved the pen. Thirdly, A. C. says 
expressly, " That the Jesuit himself made the relation of the 
first conference with Dr. White :" and in the title-page of the 
work, that relation, as well as this, is said to be made by A. C. 
and published by W. I.; therefore A. C. and the Jesuit are 


one and the same person, or else one of these places hath no 
truth in it. 

Now if it be Mr. Fisher himself, under the name of A. C., 
then what needs these h words : " The Jesuit could be content 
to let pass the chaplain's censure, as one of his ordinary per- 
secutions for the catholic faith ; but A. C. thought it necessary 
for the common cause to defend the sincerity and truth of his 
Relation, and the truth of some of the chief heads contained in 
it ?" In which speech give me leave to observe to your sacred 
Majesty, how grievously you suffer him and his fellows to be 
persecuted for the catholic faith, when your poor subject and 
servant cannot set out a true copy of a conference held with 
the Jesuit, jussu superiorum, but by and by the man is per- 
secuted. God forbid I should ever offer to persuade a per- 
secution in any kind, or practise it in the least ; for to my 
remembrance, I have not given him or his so much as coarse 
language. But on the other side, God forbid too, that your 
Majesty should let both laws and discipline sleep for fear of 
the name of persecution, and in the mean time let Mr. Fisher 
and his fellows angle in all parts of your dominions for your 
subjects. If in your grace and goodness you will spare their 
persons, yet I humbly beseech you, see to it that they be not 
suffered to lay either their wheels, or bait their hooks, or cast 
their nets in every stream, lest that tentation grow both too 
general and too strong. I know they have many devices to 
work their ends ; but if they will needs be fishing, let them 
use none but 'lawful nets. Let us have no dissolving of oaths 
of allegiance, no deposing, no killing of kings, no blowing 
up of states, to settle quod volumus, that which fain they 
would have in the church; with many other nets as dan- 
gerous as these : for if their profession of religion were as 
good as they pretend it is, if they cannot compass it by good 
means, I am sure they ought not to attempt it by bad. For 
if they will do evil that good may come thereof, the apostle 
tells me, k -their damnation is just. 

Now as I would humbly beseech your Majesty to keep a 

h Preface to the Relation of this Con- have greatest cause to take heed of 

ference by A. C. them. S. August, lib. de Fide et Oper. 

i And St. Augustine is very full c. 17. 
against the use of mala retia, unlawful k Rom. iii. 8. 
nets, and saith the fishermen themselves 


serious watch upon these Fisher-men, which pretend St. Peter, 
but fish not with his net ; so would I not have you neglect 
another sort of anglers in a shallower water. For they have 
some ill nets too. And if they may spread them when and 
where they will, God knows what may become of it. These 
have not so strong a back abroad as the Romanists have ; 
but that is no argument to suffer them to increase. They 
may grow to equal strength with number. And factious 
people at home, of what sect or fond opinion soever they be, 
are not to be neglected : partly, because they are so near ; 
and it is ever a dangerous fire that begins in the bedstraw : 
and partly, because all those domestic evils, which threaten 
a rent in church or state, are with far more safety prevented 
by wisdom than punished by justice. And would men con- 
sider it right, they are far more beholding to that man that 
keeps them from falling, than to him that takes them up, 
though it be to set the arm or the leg that is broken in the 

In this discourse I have no aim to displease any, nor any 
hope to please all. If I can help on to truth in the church, 
and the peace of the church together, I shall be glad, be it in 
any measure. Nor shall I spare to speak necessary truth, out 
of too much love of peace ; nor thrust on unnecessary truth 
to the breach of that peace, which, once broken, is not so easily 
soldered again. And if for necessary truth's sake only, any 
man will be offended, nay take, nay snatch at that offence 
which is not given, I know no fence for that. It is truth, and 
I must tell it : it is the gospel, and I must preach it 1 . And 
far safer it is in this case to bear anger from men, than a woe 
from God. And where the foundations of faith are shaken, be 
it by superstition or profaneness, he that puts not to his 
hand as firmly as he can to support them, is too wary and 
hath more care of himself than of the cause of Christ. And 
it is a wariness that brings more danger in the end than it 
shuns. For the angel of the Lord issued out a curse against the 
inhabitants of Meroz, because they came not to help the Lord, to 
help the Lord against the mighty. I know it is a great ease 
to let every thing be as it will, and every man believe and do 

1 i Cor. ix. 1 6. m Judges v. 23. 


as he list : but whether governors in state or church do their 
duty therewhile is easily seen, since this is an effect of no king 
in Israel n . 

The church of Christ upon earth may be compared to a 
hive of bees, and that can be nowhere so steadily placed in 
this world, but it will be in some danger. And men that care 
neither for the hive nor the bees, have yet a great mind to 
the honey ; and having once tasted the sweet of the church's 
maintenance, swallow that for honey, which one day will be 
more bitter than gall in their bowels. Now the king and the 
priest, more than any other, are bound to look to the in- 
tegrity of the church in doctrine and manners, and that in 
the first place ; for that is by far the best honey in the hive. 
But in the second place, they must be careful of the church's 
maintenance too, else the bees shall make honey for others, 
and have none left for their own necessary sustenance, and 
then all is lost. For we see it in daily and common use, that 
the honey is not taken from the bees, but they are destroyed 
first. Now in this great and busy work, the king and the 
priest must not fear to put their hands to the hive, though 
they be sure to be stung ; and stung by the bees whose hive 
and house they preserve. It was king David's case, (God 
grant it be never yours:) They came about me, saith the 
Psalmist, like lees. This was hard usage enough, yet some 
profit, some honey might thus be gotten in the end : and 
that is the king's case. But when it comes to the priest, the 
case is altered : they come about him like wasps, or like hor- 
nets rather, all sting and no honey there. And all this many 
times for no offence, nay sometimes for service done them, 
would they see it. But you know who said, Behold, I come 
shortly ; and my reward is with me, to give to every man accord- 
ing as Ms works shall beP. And he himself is so q exceeding great 
a reward, as that the manifold stings which are in the world, 
howsoever they smart here, are nothing when they are pressed 
out with that exceeding weight of glory which shall be re- 
vealed 1 ". 

n Judges xvii. 6. descentia. Calv. in Psal. cxviii. 

o Psal. cxviii. 1 2. Apum similitudine P Revel, xxii. 12. 
ardorem notat vesanum; non est enim n Gen. xv. i. 
in illis multum roboris, sed mira excan- r Rom. viii. 18. 


Now one thing more let me be bold to observe to your 
Majesty in particular, concerning your great charge, the 
church of England. It is in a hard condition. She pro- 
fesses the ancient catholic faith, and yet the Romanist con- 
demns her of novelty in her doctrine. She practises church 
government, as it hath been in use in all ages and all places, 
where the church of Christ hath taken any rooting, both in 
and ever since the apostles' times ; and yet the separatist con- 
demns her for antichristianism in her discipline. The plain 
truth is, she is between these two factions, as between two 
millstones ; and unless your Majesty look to it, to whose trust 
she is committed, she will be ground to powder, to an irre- 
parable both dishonour and loss to this kingdom. And it is 
very remarkable, that while both these press hard upon the 
church of England, both of them cry out upon persecution, 
like froward children, which scratch, and kick, and bite, and 
yet cry out all the while as if themselves were killed. Now to 
the Romanist I shall say this ; The errors of the church of 
Rome are grown now (many of them) very old; and when 
errors are grown by age and continuance to strength, they 
which speak for the truth, though it be far older, are ordi- 
narily challenged for the bringers in of new opinions. And 
there is no greater absurdity stirring this day in Christendom, 
than that the reformation of an old corrupted church, will we, 
nill we, must be taken for the building of a new. And were 
not this so, we should never be troubled with that idle and 
impertinent question of theirs, Where was your church be- 
fore Luther? for it was just there, where theirs is now. S 0ne 
and the same church still, no doubt of that. One in substance, 
but not one in condition of state and purity ; their part of 
the same church remaining in corruption, and our part of the 
same church under reformation. The same Naaman, and he 
a Syrian still, but leprous with them, and cleansed with us ; 
the same man still. And for the separatist, and him that lays 

s " There is no other difference he- field, now of Duresm., in the letters 

tween us and Rome, than betwixt a printed by the bp, of Exeter, in this 

church miserably corrupted, and happily treatise called the Reconciler, p. 68. 

purged," &c. Jos. Hall, bp. of Exon, And Dr. Field, in this Appendix to the 

in his Apologetical Advertisement to third part, cap. 2, where he cites Calvin 

the Reader, p. 192 ; approved by Tho. to the same purpose, lib.iv. Inst. cap. 2. 

Morton, bp. then of Coventry and Lich- . 1 1 . 


his grounds for separation or change of discipline, though all 
he says or can say be in truth of divinity and among learned 
men little better than ridiculous ; yet since these fond opin- 
ions have gained some ground among your people, to such 
among them as are wilfully set to follow their blind guides 
through thick and thin, till Hhey fall into the ditch together, 
I shall say nothing : but for so many of them as mean well, 
and are only misled by artifice and cunning, concerning them 
I shall say thus much only, " They are bells of passing good 
metal, and tuneable enough of themselves, and in their own 
disposition ; and a world of pity it is that they are rung so 
miserably out of tune as they are, by them which have gotten 
power in and over their consciences. And for this there is 
yet remedy enough ; but how long there will be, I know not. 

Much talking there is (bragging, your Majesty may call it) 
on both sides ; and when they are in their ruff, they both 
exceed all moderation and truth too ; so far, till both lips and 
pens open for all the world, like a purse without money; 
nothing comes out of this, and that which is worth nothing out 
of them. And yet this nothing is made so great, as if the 
salvation of souls, that great work of the Redeemer of the 
world the Son of God, could not be effected without it. And 
while the one faction cries up the church above the scripture, 
and the other the scripture to the neglect and contempt of the 
church, which the scripture itself teaches men both to honour 
and obey, they have so far endangered the belief of the one 
and the authority of the other, as that neither hath its due 
from a great part of men; whereas, according to Christ's 
institution, the scripture, where it is plain, should guide the 
church, and the church, where there is doubt or difficulty, 
should expound the scripture ; yet so as neither the scripture 
should be forced, nor the church so bound up, as that upon 
just and further evidence she may not revise that which in 
any case hath slipt by her What success this great dis- 
temper, caused by the collision of two such factions, may 
have, I know not, I cannot prophesy. This I know, that the 
use which wise men should make of other men's falls is not 
to fall with them ; and the use which pious and religious men 

t JMatth. xv. 14. 


should make of these great flaws in Christianity, is not to 
join with them that make them, nor to help to dislocate those 
main bones in the body, which being once put out of joint 
will not easily be set again. And though I cannot prophesy, 
yet I fear that atheism and irreligion gather strength, while 
the truth is thus weakened by an unworthy way of contend- 
ing for it. And while they thus contend, neither part con- 
sider that they are in a way to induce upon themselves and 
others that contrary extreme, which they seem most both to 
fear and oppose. 

Besides, this I have ever observed, that many rigid profes- 
sors have turned Roman catholics, and in that turn have been 
more jesuited than any other ; and such Romanists as have 
changed from them have for the most part quite leaped over 
the mean, and been as rigid the other way as extremity 
itself. And this, if there be not both grace and wisdom to 
govern it, is a very natural motion; for a man is apt to 
think he can never run far enough from that which he once 
begins to hate, and doth not consider therewhile, that where 
religion corrupted is the thing he hates, a fallacy may easily 
be put upon him ; for he ought to hate the corruption which 
depraves religion, and to run from it ; but from no part of 
religion itself, which he ought to love and reverence, ought he 
to depart. And this I have observed further, that no one 
thing hath made conscientious men more wavering in their 
own minds, or more apt and easy to be drawn aside from the 
sincerity of religion professed in the church of England, than 
the want of uniform and decent order in too many churches 
of the kingdom. And the Romanists have been apt to say, 
The houses of God could not be suffered to lie so nastily, 
(as in some places they have done,) were the true worship of 
God observed in them, or did the people think that such it 
were. It is true the inward worship of the heart is the 
great service of God, and no service acceptable without it ; 
but the external worship of God in his church is the great 
witness to the world that our heart stands right in that ser- 
vice of God : take this away, or bring it into contempt, and 
what light is there left to shine before men, that they may see 
our devotion, and glorify our Father which is in heaven ? And 
to deal clearly with your Majesty, these thoughts are they, 


and no other, which have made me labour so much as I have 
done for decency and an orderly settlement of the external 
worship of God in the church ; for of that which is inward 
there can be no witness among men, nor no example for men. 
Now no external action in the world can be uniform without 
some ceremonies ; and these in religion, the ancienter they 
be the better, so they may fit time and place: too many 
over-burden the service of God, and too few leave it naked. 
And scarce any thing hath hurt religion more in these broken 
times than an opinion in too many men, that because Rome had 
thrust some unnecessary and many superstitious ceremonies 
upon the church, therefore the Reformation must have none 
at all; not considering therewhile, that ceremonies are the 
hedge that fence the substance of religion from all the indig- 
nities which profaneness and sacrilege too commonly put upon 
it. And a great weakness it is not to see the strength which 
ceremonies (things weak enough in themselves, God knows) 
add even to religion itself; but a far greater to see it, and 
yet to cry them down, all, and without choice, by which their 
most hated adversaries climbed up, and could not cry up 
themselves and their cause as they do but by them. And 
divines, of all the rest, might learn and teach this wisdom if 
they would, since they see all other professions which help to 
bear down their ceremonies, keep up their own therewhile, 
and that to the highest. 

I have been too bold to detain your Majesty so long ; but 
my grief to see Christendom bleeding in dissension, and, which 
is worse, triumphing in her own blood, and most angry with 
them that would study her peace, hath thus transported me. 
For truly it cannot but grieve any man that hath bowels, to 
see all men seeking, but as St. Paul foretold u , their own 
things, and not the things which are Jesus Christ's; sua, 
their own surely, for the gospel of Christ hath nothing to do 
with them ; and to see religion, so much, so zealously pre- 
tended and called upon, made but the stalking-horse to shoot 
at other fowl, upon which their aim is set : in the mean time, as 
if all were truth and holiness itself, no salvation must be pos- 
sible, did it lie at their mercy, but in the communion of the 

Phil. ii. 21. 


one, and in the conventicles of the other. As if either of these 
now were, as the Donatists of old reputed themselves, the only 
men in whom Christ at his coming to judgment should find 
faith. "No," saith x St. Augustine, and so say I with him, 
"Da veniam, non credimus ; pardon us, I pray, we cannot 
believe it." The catholic church of Christ is neither Rome 
nor a conventicle. Out of that there is no salvation, I easily 
confess it ; but out of Rome there is, and out of a con- 
venticle too : salvation is not shut up into such a narrow con- 
clave. In this ensuing discourse therefore I have endea- 
voured to lay open those wider gates of the catholic church, 
confined to no age, time, or place ; nor knowing any bounds, 
but that faith, which was once (and but once for all) delivered 
to the saints Y. And in my pursuit of this way I have 
searched after, and delivered with a single heart, that truth 
which I profess. In the publishing whereof, I have obeyed 
your Majesty, discharged my duty to my power to the 
church of England, z given account of the hope that is in me, 
and so testified to the world that faith in which I have lived, 
and by God's blessing and favour purpose to die ; but till 
death shall most unfeignedly remain, 

Your Majesty^s most faithful subject, 

And most humble and obliged servant, 


* S.August. Epist. 48. y Jude 3. z i Pet. iii. 15. 








$. The occasion of this conference was 
23. rilHE occasion of this third conference you should know Sect. i. 

A sufficiently. You were an actor in it, as well as in 
two other. Whether you have related the two former truly, 
appears by Dr. White the late reverend lord bishop of Ely 
his relation or exposition of them. I was present at none 
but this third ; of which I here give the church an account. 
But of this third, whether that were the cause which you 
allege, I cannot tell. You say, 

dp. It was observed, that in the second conference all the 
speech was about particular matters, little or none about 
a continual, infallible, visible church ; which was the chief 
and only point in which a certain lady required satis- 
faction ; as having formerly settled in her mind, that it 
was not for her, or any other unlearned persons, to take 
upon them to judge of particulars, without depending 
upon the judgment of the true church. 

33* The opinion of that honourable person in this was never Sect. 2. 
opened to me. And it is very fit the people should look to 
the judgment of the church, before they be too busy with 

2 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 2,3. particulars. But yet neither scripture 3 , nor any good author- 
ity, denies them some moderate use of their own under- 
standing and judgment, especially in things familiar and 
evident ; which even ordinary capacities may as easily under- 
stand as read b . And therefore some particulars a Christian 
may judge without depending. 

Jp, This lady therefore having heard it granted in the first 
conference, that there must be a continual visible com- 
pany ever since Christ, teaching unchanged doctrine in all 
fundamental points, that is, points necessary to salvation, 
desired to hear this confirmed, and proof brought which 
was that continual, infallible, visible church, in which one 
may, and out of which one cannot, attain salvation. And 
therefore, having appointed a time of meeting between a 
23. and me, and thereupon having sent for the 2$. and me, 
before the 33. came, the lady, and a friend of hers, came 
first to the room where I was, and debated before me the 
aforesaid question ; and not doubting of the first part, 
to wit, that there must be a continual visible church, as 
they had heard granted by D. White and L. K., &c. 
Sect. 3. I. 23* What D. White and L. K. granted, I heard not : 

but I think both granted a continual and a visible church ; 
neither of them an infallible, at least in your sense. And 
yourself, in this relation, speak distractedly : for in these few 
lines from the beginning hither, twice you add infallible 
between continual and visible, and twice you leave it out. 
But this concerns D. W., and he hath answered it. 
A. C. p. 42. II. Here A. C. steps in, and says, "The Jesuit did not 
speak distractedly, but most advisedly : for (saith he) where 
he relates what D. White or L. K. granted, he leaves out the 
word infallible, because they granted it not; but where he 
speaks of the lady, there he adds it, because the Jesuit knew 

a I Cor. x. 15. Et Sidvoia aTrb rov fiiavosiv, i. e. ab eo 

b Quis non sine ullo magistro, aut quod considerat, et discernit : quia de- 

interprete ex se facile cognoscat, &c. cernit inter verum et falsum. Damasc. 

Novat. de Trin. c. 23. Et loquitur de lib. ii. Fid. Orth. c. 22. 

mysterio passionis Christi : Dijudicare And A. C. himself, p. 41, denies not 

est mensurare, &c.; unde et mens dici- all judgment to private men ; but says, 

tur a metiendo. Thorn, p. i. q. 79. a 9 " They are not so to rely absolutely 

ad 4. To what end then is a mind and upon their private judgment, as to ad- 

aii understanding given a man, if he venture salvation upon it alone, or 

n ay not apply it to measure truth ? chiefly ;" which no man will deny. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 3 

it was an infallible church which she sought to rely upon." Sect. 3. 
How far the catholic militant church of Christ is infallible, is 
no dispute for this place, though you shall find it after. But 
sure the Jesuit did not speak most advisedly, nor A. C. 
neither, nor the lady herself, if she said she desired to rely 
upon an infallible church. For an infallible church denotes 
a particular church, in that it is set in opposition to some 
other particular church that is not infallible. Now I for ray 
part do not know what that lady desired to rely upon. This 
I know : if she desired such a particular church, neither this 
Jesuit, nor any other, is able to shew it her ; no, not Bellar- 
mine himself, though of very great ability to make good any 
truth which he undertakes for the church of Rome. c But 
no strength can uphold an error against truth, where truth 
hath an able defendant. Now where Bellarmine sets himself 
purposely to make this good, " d That the particular church of 
Rome cannot err in matter of faith ;" out of which it follows, 
that there may be found a particular infallible church ; you 
shall see what he is able to perform. 

III. i. First then, after he hath distinguished, to express 
his meaning, in what sense the particular church of Rome 
cannot err in things which are de fide, of the faith, he tells 
us, this firmitude is, because the see apostolic is fixed there. 
And this, he saith, is most true : e and for proof of it, he 
brings three Fathers to justify it. 

(r.) The first, St. Cyprian, f whose words are, that the 
Romans are such as to whom perfidia cannot have access. 
Now perfidia can hardly stand for error in faith, or for mis- 
belief; but it properly signifies malicious falsehood in matter 
of trust and action ; not error in faith, but in fact, against 
the discipline and government of the church. And why may 
it not here have this meaning in St. Cyprian. 

IV. For the story there, it is this, sin the year 255 there 
was a council in Carthage in the cause of two schismatics, 

c Veritas vincat necesse est, sive ne- c Ibid. . 2. 

gantem, sive confitentem, &c. S. Aug. f Navigare audent ad Petri cathe- 

Epist. 174. Occultari potest ad tern- dram, et ecclesiam principalem, &c. nee 

pus veritas, vinci non potest. S. Aug. cogitare eos esse Romanos, ad quos per- 

in Psal. 61. fidia hahere 11011 potest accessum. Cy- 

d L. iv. de Rom. Pont. cap. 4. . r. prian. lib. i. epist. 3. 

Roniana particular^ ecclesia non potest S Binnii Concil. torn. i. p. 152. edit, 

errare in fide. Paris. 1636. Baron. Annal. 253255. 

B 2 

4 ArcJibisJiap Laud against 

Sect. 3. Felicissimus and Novatian, about restoring of them to the 
communion of the church, which had lapsed, in time of danger, 
from Christianity to idolatry. Felicissimus would admit all, 
even without penance ; and Novatian would admit none, no 
not after penance. The Fathers, forty-two in number, went, as 
the truth led them, between both extremes. To this council 
came Privatus, a known heretic, but was not admitted, be- 
cause he was formerly excommunicated, and often condemned. 
Hereupon he gathers his complices together, and chooses one 
Fortunatus (who was formerly condemned as well as himself) 
bishop of Carthage, and set him up against St. Cyprian. This 
done, Felicissimus and his fellows haste to Rome, with letters 
testimonial from their own party, and pretend that twenty- 
five bishops concurred with them ; and their desire was, to 
be received into the communion of the Roman church, and 
to have their new bishop acknowledged. Cornelius, then 
pope, though their haste had now prevented St. Cyprian^s 
letters, having formerly heard from him both of them and 
their schism in Afric, would neither hear them, nor receive 
their letters. They grew insolent and furious, (the ordinary 
way that schismatics take.) Upon this Cornelius writes to 
St. Cyprian ; and St. Cyprian, in this epistle, gives Cornelius 
thanks for refusing these African fugitives, declares their 
schism and wickedness at large, and encourages him, and all 
bishops, to maintain the ecclesiastical discipline and censures 
against any the boldest threatenings of wicked schismatics. 
This is the story ; and in this is the passage here urged by 
Bellarmine. Now I would fain know why perfidia (all circum- 
stances considered) may not stand here in its proper sense, 
for cunning and perfidious dealing ; which these men, having 
practised at Carthage, thought now to obtrude upon the 
bishop of Rome also, but that he was wary enough not to be 
overreached by busy schismatics. 

V. (2.) Secondly, let it be granted, that perfidia doth 
signify here error in faith and doctrine. For I will not deny 
but that among the African writers (and especially St. 
Cyprian) it is sometimes so used; and therefore here perhaps. 
But then this privilege, of not erring dangerously in the faith, 
was not made over absolutely to the Romans, that are such 
by birth and dwelling only ; but to the Romans, qua tales, as 

Fisher the Jesuit. 5 

they were such as those first were, whose faith was famous Sect. 
through the world, and as long as they continued such ; which 
at that time it seems they did. And so St. Cyprian's words 
seem to import, " eos esse Romanos," that the Romans then, 
under pope Cornelius, were such as the h apostle spake of; 
and therefore to whom, at that time, (or any time, they still 
remaining such,) perfidious misbelief could not be welcome ; 
or rather, indeed, perfidious misbelievers or schismatics could 
not be welcome. For this very phrase, perfidia non potest 
habere accessum, directs us to understand the word in a con- 
crete sense : " Perfidiousness could not get access ;" that is, 
such perfidious persons, excommunicated out of other churches, 
were not likely to get access at Rome, or to find admittance 
into their communion. It is but a metonymy of speech, the 
adjunct for the subject; a thing very usual even in 'elegant 
authors, and much more in later times, as in St. Cyprian's, 
when the Latin language was grown rougher. Now, if it be 
thus understood (I say, in the concrete), then it is plain that 
St. Cyprian did not intend by these words to exempt the 
Romans from possibility of error, but to brand his adversaries 
with a title due to their merit, calling them perfidious, that 
is, such as had betrayed or perverted the faith. Neither can 
we lose by this construction, as will appear at after. 

VI. (3.) But thirdly; when all is done, what if it be no more 
than a rhetorical excess of speech ; perfidia non potest, for non 
facile potest ; it cannot, that is, it cannot easily ? Or what if 
St. Cyprian do but laudando prcecipere, k by commending them 
to be such, instruct them that such indeed they ought to be, 
to whom perfidiousness should not get access ? Men are very 
bountiful of their compliments sometimes, ^ynesius writing 
to Theophilus of Alexandria begins thus : 'Eyo> KOL ^o^Aojucu, 
KCU avdyK-q juot 0eta, &c. I both will, and a divine necessity lies 
upon me, to esteem it a law, whatsoever that throne (meaning 
his of Alexandria) shall determine. Nay, the word is 0e<nn- 
e4z>, and that signifies to determine like an oracle, or as in 
God's stead. Now I hope you will say, this is not to be 

h Rom. i. 8. tus amictn omuls Honos. Nullos comi- 

1 Ego tibi istam scelestam, scelus, tata est purpura/asces. Lucan. lib. ii. 
linguam abscindam. Plaut. Amphit. k Nee eogitare eos esse Romanes, 

Ex hac enim parte pudor pugnat, illinc quorum fides apostolo praedicarite, &c. 
petulanlia,&.c. Cic. Latuit plebeio tec- 1 Epist. 67. 

B 3 

6 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3. taken dogmatically, it is but the epistler's courtesy only. 
And why not the like here? For the haste which these 
schismatics made to Rome prevented St. Cyprian^s letters : 
yet Cornelius, very careful of both the truth and peace of the 
church, would neither hear them, nor receive their letters, 
m till he had written to St. Cyprian. Now this epistle is St. 
Cyprian's answer to Cornelius, in which he informs him of the 
whole truth ; and withal gives him thanks for refusing to 
hear these African fugitives. In which fair way of returning 
his thanks, if he make an honourable mention of the Romans 
and their faith, with a little dash of rhetoric, even to a non 
potest, for a non facile potest, it is no great wonder. 

VII. But take which answer you will of the three, this is 
plain, that St. Cyprian had no meaning to assert the unerring 
infallibility of either pope or church of Rome. For this is 
more than manifest, by the contestation which after happened 
between St. Cyprian and pope Stephen, about the rebap- 
tization of those that were baptized by heretics; for n he 
saith expressly, that " pope Stephen did then not only 
maintain an error, but the very cause of heretics ; and that 
against Christians and the very church of God." And after 
this he chargeth him with obstinacy and presumption. I 
hope this is plain enough to shew, that St. Cyprian had no 
great opinion of the Roman infallibility : or if he had it when 
he writ to Cornelius, certainly he had changed it when he 
wrote against Stephen. But I think it was no change ; and 
that when he wrote to Cornelius, it was rhetoric, and no 

VIII. Now if any man shall say that, in this point of 
rebaptization, St. Cyprian himself was in the wrong opinion, 
and pope Stephen in the right, I easily grant that ; but yet 
that error of his takes not off his judgment, what he thought 
of the papal or Roman infallibility in those times. For though 

m For so St. Cyprian begins his epi- ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephani 

stle to Cornelius; Legi literas tuas, fra- edit, per Erasmum, Basil, p. 327. 

ter, &c. And after: Sed enim lecta o Stephani fratris nostri obstinatio 

alia epistola tua, frater, &c. S.Cyprian, dura. Ibid. p. 329. And it would be 

lib. i. epist. 3. marked by the Jesuit and 1m A. C. 

n Stephanus frater noster haeretico- that still it is Stephani fratris nostri, 

rum causain contra Christianos, et con- and not capitis, or summi pastoris 

tra ecclesiam Dei asserere conatur. Cypr. nostri. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 7 

afterwards P St. Cyprian's opinion was condemned in a council Sect. 3. 
at Rome under Cornelius, and after that by pope Stephen, 
and after both, in the first q council of Carthage ; yet no one 
word is there in that council which mentions this as an error, 
that he thought pope Stephen might err in the faith, while 
he proclaimed he did so. In which, though the particular 
censure which he passed on pope Stephen was erroneous, (for 
Stephen erred not in that,) yet the general which results from 
it (namely, that for all his being in the popedom, he might 
err) is most true. 

IX. 2. The second Father which Bellarmine cites is 
St. Jerome: his words are, " r The Roman faith, commended 
by the apostle, admits not such prcestigias, deceits, and delu- 
sions into it, though an angel should preach it otherwise than 
it was preached at first, (and) being armed and fenced by 
St. Paul's authority, cannot be changed." Where, first, I will 
not doubt but that St. Jerome speaks here of the faith ; for 
the prcestigice here mentioned are afterwards more plainly 
expressed; for he tells us after, " s That the bishop of Rome 
had sent letters into the East, and charged heresy upon 
Rufinus :" and further, " that Origen's books Trepi apx&v were 
translated by him, and delivered to the simple people of the 
church of Rome, that by his means they might lose the verity 
of the faith which they had learned from the apostle." There- 
fore the prcestigice before-mentioned were the cunning illusions 
of Rufinus, putting Origen's book under the martyr Pam- 
philus his name, that so he might bring in heresy the more 
cunningly under a name of credit, and the more easily pervert 
the people's faith. So, of the faith he speaks. And secondly, 
I shall as easily confess, that St. Jerome's speech is most true, 
but I cannot admit the cardinal's sense of it ; for he imposes 
upon the word fides : for by Romana fides, " the Roman faith," 

P Caranza in Concil. Carthag. sub be read et jam si, for so the place is 

Cornel, fine. more plain, and more strong ; but the 

q Can. i answer is the same. 

r Attamen scito Romanam fidem apo- s Deinde ut epistolas contra te ad 

stolica voce laudatam ejusmodi prjesti- Orientem mitteret, et cauterium tibi 

gias non recipere, etiamsi angelus aliter haereseos inureret. Diceretque libros 

annunciet, quam semel pnedicatum est, Origenis trepl dp^cSi/, a te translates, et 

Pauli authoritate munitam non posse simplici ecclesise Romanae plebi tradi- 

mutari. S. Hieron. lib. iii. Apol. con- tos, ut fidei veritatem quam ab apostolo 

tra Ruffinum, torn. ii. edit. Paris. 1534. didicerant, per te perderent. S. Hieron. 

I'ol. 84. K. Peradventure it is here to ibid. fol. 85. K. 

B 4 

8 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3. he will understand the particular church of Rome ; which is 
as much as to say, Romanos fideles, the faithful of that 
church ; and that no wily delusions, or cozenage in matter 
of faith, can be imposed upon them. Now hereupon I return 
to that of St. Cyprian : if fides Romana must signify Jideles 
Romanos, why may not perfidia before signify perfidos ? espe- 
cially since these two words are commonly used by these 
writers, as terms l opposite ; and therefore, by the law of 
opposition, may interpret each other proportionably. So with 
these great masters, with whom it is almost grown to be, 
quod wlumus, rectum est, what we please shall be the author's 
meaning, perfidia must signify absolutely error in faith, or 
misbelief; but jides must relate to the persons, and signify 
the faithful of the Roman church. And now I conceive my 
answer will proceed with a great deal of reason. For Romana 
Jides, " the Roman faith," as it was commended by the apostle, 
(of which St. Jerome speaks,) is one thing, and the particular 
Roman church, of which the cardinal speaks, is another. The 
faith, indeed, admits not prcestigias, wily delusions, into it ; 
if it did, it could not be the whole and undefiled faith of 
Christ, which they learned from the apostle, and which is so 
fenced by apostolical authority, as that it cannot be changed, 
though an angel should preach the contrary. But the parti- 
cular church of Rome hath admitted prcestigias, divers crafty 
conveyances, into the faith, and is not fenced, as the faith 
itself is: and therefore, though an angel cannot contrary 
that, yet the bad angel hath sowed tares in this. By which 
means Romana Jides, though it be now the same it was for 
the words of the Creed, yet it is not the same for the sense of 
it ; nor for the super and prseter-structures built upon it, or 
joined unto it. So the Roman faith, that is, the faith which 
St. Paul taught the Romans, and after commended in them, 
was all one with the catholic faith of Christ. For St. Paul 
taught no other than that one ; and this one can never be 
changed in or from itself by angel or devil. But in men's 
hearts it may receive a change ; and in particular churches 

t Qui cum fidei dux esse non potuit, rum iis non potest obesse perfidia ? S. 

perfidiae existat. S.Cyprian, lib. i. epist. Aug. epist. 23. Quanto potius fides 

7. Fidem perfidi, &c. Ibid Facti sunt aliena potest consulere parvul.), cui sua 

ex ovibus vulpes, ex fidelibus perfidi. perfidia, &c. S. Aug. lib. iii. de Lib. 

Optatus, lib. vii. Quomodo iis prosit Arbit. c. 23. 
quum baptizantur parentum fides, quo- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 9 

it may receive a change; and in the particular church oi'bcct. .,. 
Rome it hath received a change. And ye see St. Jerome 
himself confesses that the pope himself was afraid u ne perde- 
rent, lest by this art of Ruffinus the people might lose the 
verity of the faith. Now that which can be lost can be 
changed: for usually habits begin to alter before they be 
quite lost. And that which may be lost among the people 
may be lost among the bishops, and the rest of the clergy too, 
if they look not to it; as it seems they after did not at 
Borne, though then they did. Nay, at this time the whole 
Eoman church was in danger enough to swallow Origen's book, 
and all the errors in it, coming under the name of Pamphi- 
lus : and so St. Jerome himself expressly, and close upon the 
place cited by Bellarmine. For he desires x Ruffinus to change 
the title of the book, (that error may not be spread under the 
specious name of Pamphilus,) and so to free from danger the 
Roman simplicity : where, by the way, Roman unerring power 
now challenged, and Roman simplicity then feared, agree not 
very well together. 

X. 3. The third Father alleged by Bellarmine is y St. Gre- 
gory Nazianzen. And his words are : " That ancient Rome 
from of old hath the right faith, and always holds it, as 
becomes the city which is governess over the whole world, to 
have an entire faith in and concerning God." Now certainly 
it became that city very well to keep the faith sound and 
entire. And having the government of great part of the 
world then in her power, it became her so much the more, as 
her example thereby was the greater. And in St. Gregory 
Nazianzen's time Rome did certainly hold both rectam et inte- 
gram fidem, the right and the whole entire faith of Christ. 
But there is nor promise nor prophecy in St. Gregory that 
Rome shall ever so do. For his words are plain; deceit 
semper, it becomes that great city always to have, and to 
hold too, integrant fidem, the entire faith. But at the other 

u Ne fidei veritatem, quam ah apo- bus habet rectam fidem, et semper earn 

stolo didicerant, per te perderent; ut retinet, sicut decet urbem, qua; toti 

supra. orbi pnvsidet, semper de Deo integram 

x Muta titulum, et Romanam sim- fidem habere. Greg. Naz. in Carmine 

plicitatem tanto. periculo libera. Ibid, de vita sua ; ante medium, p. 9. edit, 

fol. 84. K. Paris. 1609. 

y Vetus Roma ab antiquis tempori- 

10 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3. semper, it is z retinet; that city from of old holds the right 
faith yet : but he saith not, retinebit semper, that the city of 
Rome shall retain it ever, no more than it shall ever retain 
the empire of the world. Now it must be assured, that it 
shall ever hold the entire faith of Christ, before we can be 
assured that that particular church can never err, or be 

XL Besides these, the cardinal names Cyrillus and Rufi- 
nus ; but he neither tells us where, nor cites their words. 
Yet I think I have found the most pregnant place in a St. 
Cyril, and that makes clearly against him. For I find ex- 
pressly these three things. First, that the church is inex- 
pugnable, and that the gates of hell shall never prevail against 
it , but that it shall in perpetuum manere, remain for ever. 
And this all protestants grant. But this, that it shall not 
fall away, doth not secure it from all kinds of error. Second- 
ly, Bellarmine quotes St. Cyril for the particular Roman 
church ; and St. Cyril speaks not of the Roman at all, but 
of the church of Christ, that is, the catholic church. Thirdly, 
that the foundation and firmness which the church of Christ 
hath, is placed not in or upon the b person, much less the 
successor of St. Peter ; but upon the c faith which, by God's 
Spirit in him, he so firmly professed : which is the common 
received opinion both of the ancient Fathers and the protest- 
ants. Upon this rock, that is, upon this faith, will I build my 
church d . So here is all the good he hath gotten by St. Cyril, 
unless he can cite some other place of St. Cyril, which I believe 
he cannot. 

XII. And for Rufinus, the place which Bellarmine aims 
at is in his Exposition upon the Creed, and is quoted in part 

z The words in the Greek are, TJ tuum manens. S. Cyril. Alexarid. Dial. 

i\v e/c TrAeioyos, Kal vvv er' effTiv evSpo- de Trin. lib. iv. p. 278. Parisiis, an. 

pos. Haec quidem fuit diu, et mine 1604. 

adhuc est rectigrada. "Effriv^ est ; so b Et ego dico tibi] i. e. tuae confes- 

St. Gregory says ; but of an etrrat, or a sioni, qua mini dixisti, Tu es Christies, 

retinebil, he says nothing : nor is sem- &c. Dion. Carthus. in S. Matt. xvi. 18. 

per in the text of Nazianzen. c Et super hanc Petram] i. e. fidei 

a Petram opinor per agnominationem hujus firmitatem et fundamentum. Vel 

nihil aliud, quam inconcussam et firmis- super hanc Petram quam corifessus es, 

simam discipuli fidem vocavit. In qua, i e. super Meipsmn lapidem angularem, 

ecclesia Christi ita fundata et firmata &c. Ibid, 

esset, ut non laberetur, et esset iiiex- d Matt. xvi. 18. 
pugnabilis inferorurn portis, in perpe- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 11 

the e chapter before. But when all his words shall be laid Sect. 3. 
together, they will make no more for Bellarmine and his 
cause than the former places have done. f Rufinus his words 
then run thus : " Before I come to the words of the Creed? 
this I think fit to warn you of, that in divers churches some 
things are found added to the words (of the Creed). But in 
the church of the city of Rome this is not found done : and, 
as I think, it is, for that no heresy did take its rise or begin- 
ning there ; and for that the old custom is there observed, 
namely, that they which are to receive the grace of baptism 
do publicly repeat the Creed in the hearing of the people, 
who would not admit such additions. But in other places, 
(as far as I can understand,) by reason of some heretics, some 
things were added, but such as were to exclude the sense 
of their novel doctrine." Now these words make little for 
Bellarmine, who cites them, and much against Rufinus that 
uttered them. They make little for Bellarmine. First, be- 
cause suppose Rufinus his speech to be true, yet this will 
never follow. In Rufinus his time no heresy had taken its 
beginning at Rome : therefore no heresy hath had rooting 
there so many hundred years since. Secondly, Bellarmine 
takes upon him there to prove that the particular church of 
Rome cannot err. Now neither can this be concluded out of 
Rufinus his words. First, because (as I said before) to argue 
from non sumpsit to ergo sumere non potest, no heresy hath yet 
begun there, therefore none can begin there, or spring thence, 
is an argument drawn ab actu ad potentiam negative, from the 
act to the power of being ; which every novice in learning can 
tell proceeds not negatively. And common reason tells every 
man it is no consequence to say, Such a thing is not, or hath 
not been, therefore it cannot be. Secondly, because though 
it were true that no heresy at all did ever take its beginning 

e Bellar. lib. iv. de Rom. Pont. cap. audiente, symbolum reddere : et utique 

3. . penult. adjectionem unius saltern sermonis, eo- 

f Illud non importune commonen- rum qui prsecesserunt in tide, non ad- 
dum puto, quod in diversis ecclesiis ali- mittit auditus. In caeteris autem locis, 
qua in his verbis inveniuntur adjecta. quantum inteliigi datur, propter non- 
In ecclesia tamen urbis Romee hoc non nullos haereticos addita quaedam viden- 
deprehenditur factum. Pro eo arbitror, tur, per quae novelise doctrinae sensus 
quod neque haeresis ulla illic sumpsit crederetur excludi, &c. Ruffiu. in Ex- 
exordium, et mos ibi servatur antiquus, posit. Symbol, (ut habetur inter Opera 
eos qui gratiam baptism! suscepturi S. Cypriani) Praefat. Expos, 
sunt, publico, id est, fidelium populo 

12 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3. at Rome, yet that can never prove that the particular church 
of Rome can never err, (which is the thing in question.) For 
suppose that no heresy did ever begin there, yet if any that 
began elsewhere were admitted into that church, it is as full 
a proof that that church can err, as if the heresy had been 
hatched into that nest. For that church errs which admits an 
heresy in it, as well as that which broaches it. Now Rufinus 
says no more of the Roman church than non sumpsit exordium, 
no heresy took its beginning there ; but that denies not but 
that some heretical taint might get in there : and it is more 
than manifest that the most famous heresies, in their several 
times, made their abode even at Rome. And it is observable 
too that Bellarmine cites no more of Rufinus his words than 
these, " In ecclesia urbis Romse neque hseresis ulla sumpsit 
exordium, et mos ibi servatur antiquus," as if this were an 
entire speech, whereas it comes in but as a reason given of the 
speech precedent ; and as if Rufinus made the church of 
Rome the great observer of the customs of the church, whereas 
he speaks but of one particular custom of reciting the Creed 
before baptism. But after all this, I pray, did no heresy ever 
begin at Rome? Where did Novatianism begin? At Rome 
sure. For f Baronius. s Pamelius, and h Petavius, do all dispute 
the point, whether that sect was denominated from Nova- 
tianus, the Roman priest, or Novatus, the African bishop ; 
and they conclude for Novatian. He then that gave that 
name is in all right the founder, and Rome the nest of that 
heresy ; and there it continued with a succession of ' bishops 
from Cornelius to Coelestine, which is near upon two hundred 
years. Nay, could Rufinus himself be ignorant that some 
heresy began at Rome ? No sure. For in this I must chal- 
lenge him either for his weak memory or his wilful error. 
For Ruffinus had not only read Eusebius his history, but had 
been at the pains to translate him. Now k Eusebius says 
plainly, that some heretics spread their venom in Asia, some 

f Baron, torn. ii. an. 254. num. 62. quorum dux Florimis. Euseb. lib. v. 

g Pamel. in Cyprian. Epist. 41. et 73. cap. 14. And in Rufinus his translation, 

h Petavius in Epiphan Hares. 59. c. 15. And then afterwards, c. 19 and 

i Onuph. in Notis ad Plat, in Vita 20 : QevavTias 5e TCOV eVi 'Pu/m.r)s r*bv 

Cornelii. vyt^] T?JS e/CKATjo'/as Oeor/jLov Trapa^ctpoT- 

k Haeretici alii in morem venenato- TOVTWV, &c. Now these taught that God 

rum serpenturn in Asiam et Phrygiam was the author of sin. 

irrepserunt, ol 5' CTT! 'Pup-ris tfK/j.aov, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 13 

in Phrygia, and others grew at Borne ; and Florinus was the Sect. 3. 
ringleader of them. And more clearly after. " Irenseus," 
saith he, " directed divers epistles against this Florinus, and 
his fellow Blastus, and condemns them of such heresies as 
threw them and their followers into great impiety, &c. ; those 
at Borne corrupting the sound doctrine of the church." There- 
fore most manifest it is that some heresy had its rise and 
beginning at Borne. But to leave this slip of Bufinus : most 
evident it is that Bufinus neither did nor could account the 
particular church of Borne infallible ; for if he had esteemed 
so of it, he would not have dissented from it in so main a 
point, as is the canon of the scripture, as he plainly doth. 
1 For reckoning up the canonical books, he most manifestly 
dissents from the Boman church. Therefore either Bufinus 
did not think the church of Borne was infallible, or else the 
church of Borne at this day reckons up more books within 
the canon than heretofore she did. If she do, then she is 
changed in a main point of faith, the canon of scripture, and 
is absolutely convinced not to be infallible : for if she were 
right in her reckoning then, she is wrong now ; and if she be 
right now, she was wrong then : and if she do not reckon 
more now than she did when Bufinus lived, then he reckons 
fewer than she, and so dissents from her ; which doubtless he 
durst not have done, had he thought her judgment infallible. 
Yea, and he sets this mark upon his dissent besides, " m that 
he reckons up the books of the canon just so, and no other- 
wise, than as he received them out of the monuments of the 
forefathers ; and out of which the assertions of our faith are 
to be taken." Last of all : had this place of Bufinus any 
strength for the infallibility of the church of Borne, yet there 
is very little reason that the pope and his clergy should take 
any benefit by it. For n St. Jerome tells us, " that when 

I Ruf. in Exposit. Symb. p. 188. In ab eo exemplar epistolae petere, cui 
which reckoning he plainly agrees with missa non est, &c. Vade potius Ro- 
the church of England, Art. VI. mam, et praesens apud eum expostula, 

m Novi et Veteris Testament! volu- cur tibi et absenti et innocenti fecerit 
mina, &c. sicut ex Patrum monumentis *njuriam. Primum, ut non reciperet 

aecepimus. Ruf. in Symb. p. 188. Et expositionem fidei tuae, quam omnis (ut 

haec sunt quae Patres intra canonem scribis) Italia comprobavit, c. Deinde, 

conclusernnt. Et ex quibus fidei iinstra ut cauterium tibi haereseos, dum nescis, 

assertiones constare voluenmt. Ibid, inureret. S. Hieron. Apol. 3. advers. 

p- 189- Ruffin. fol. 85. K. 

II Si episcopi Romani est, stulte facis 

14 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3. Rufinus was angry with him for an epistle which he writ not, 
he plainly sent him to the bishop of Rome, and bid him 
expostulate with him for the contumely put upon him, in that 
he received not his exposition of the faith, which (said he) all 
Italy approved : and in that he branded him also, dum nesci- 
ret, (behind his back,) with heresy." Now if the pope which 
then was rejected this exposition of the Creed made by Rufi- 
nus, and branded him besides with heresy, his sentence against 
Rufinus was just or unjust : if unjust, then the pope erred 
about a matter of faith ; and so neither he, nor the church of 
Rome, infallible: if just, then the church of Rome labours to 
defend herself by his pen, which is judged heretical by herself. 
So, whether it were just or unjust, the church of Rome is 
driven to a hard strait, when she must beg help of him whom 
she branded with heresy, and out of that tract which she 
herself rejected ; and so uphold her infallibility by the judg- 
ment of a man, who, in her judgment, had erred so foully : 
nor may she by any n law take benefit of a testimony which 
herself hath defamed and protested against. 

XIII. With these Bellarmine is pleased to name six or 
seven popes, which, he saith, are all of this opinion. But of 
popes 1 opinions he saith, that P " these testimonies will be con- 
temned by the heretics." Good words, I pray. I know whom 
the cardinal means by heretics very well ; but the best is, his 
call cannot make them so. Nor shall I easily contemn seven 
ancient bishops of Rome concurring in opinion, if apparent 
verity in the thing itself do not force me to dissent ; and in 
that case I shall do it without contempt too. This only I 
will say, q that seven popes concurring in opinion shall have 
less weight with me in their own cause than any other seven 
of the more ancient Fathers. Indeed, could I swallow r Bellar- 
mine's opinion, that the pope's judgment is infallible, I would 
then submit without any more ado. But that will never 

n Quum qnis se velle personas tes- nisi conformiter ad legem divinam, na- 

tium post publicationem repellere fuerit turalem et canonicam loquatur. So Jo. 

protestatus ; si quid pro ipso dixerint, Gerson, and the doctors of Paris, cited 

iis non creditur. Extra. Tex. et ibi in Lib. Anon, de Ecclesiastica et Poli- 

Gloss. c. Praesentium 31. de Testibus. tica Potestate, c. 16. ed. Paris. 1612. 

o Lib. iv. c. 3. . I)e altero ergo. Now these popes do not speak here con- 

P Quae etsi ab haereticis contemneri- formably to these laws. 
tur. Lib. iv. c. 4 . Addo etiam. r Lib. iv. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. in 

'l Nemini in sua causa credendum, initio. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 15 

down with me, unless I live till I dote, which I hope in God Sect. 3. 
I shall not. 

XIV. Other proofs than these Bellarmine brings not, to 
prove that the particular church of Rome cannot err in or 
from the faith. And of what force these are to sway any 
judgment, I submit to all indifferent readers. And having 
thus examined Bellarmine's proofs, that the particular church 
of Rome cannot err in faith, I now return to A. C. and the A. C. p. 42. 
Jesuit ; and tell them, that no Jesuit, or any other, is ever 
able to prove any particular church infallible. 

XV. But for the particular church of Rome, and the pope 
with it, erred it hath, and therefore may err : erred, I say, it 
hath, in the worship of images, and in altering Chrisfs insti- 
tution in the blessed sacrament, by taking away the cup from 
the people ; and divers other particulars, as shall appear at 
s after. And as for the ground which is presumed to secure 
this church from error, it is very remarkable how the t learned 
cardinal speaks in this case ; for he tells us, that this propo- 
sition, " So long as St. Peters chair is at Rome, that particu- 
lar church cannot err in the faith," is verissima, most true ; 
and yet in the very next words it is fortasse tarn vera, perad- 
venture as true as the former, that is, " That the pope, when 
he teaches the whole church in those things which belong to 
the faith, cannot err in any case." What ! Is that proposition 
most true ! and yet is it but at a peradventure it is as true 
as this ? Is it possible any thing should be absolutely most 
true, and yet under a peradventure that it is but as true as 
another truth? But here, without all peradventure, neither 
proposition is true. And then indeed Bellarmine may say, 
without a, fortasse, that this proposition, "The particular church 
of Rome cannot err, so long as the see apostolic is there," is 
as true as this ; " The pope cannot err while he teaches the 
whole church in those things which belong to the faith :" for 
neither of them is true. But he cannot say that either of 
them is verissima, most true, when neither of them hath 

s . 33. Consid. 7. Num. 5. et 12. c. 4. . 2. edit. Lugdun. 1596. And 

t Romana ecclesia particularis non that first proposition is this : Snmmus 

potest errare, persistente Romae aposto- pontifex, cum totam ecclesiam docet, in 

lica sede. Propositio haec est verissima, his quae ad fidem pertinent nullo casu 

et fortasse tarn vera quam ilia prima errare potest. Ibid. c. 3. . I. 
de pontifice. Lib. iv. de Rom. Pont. 

16 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3. XVI. 2. Secondly, if the particular church of Borne be 
infallible, and can neither err in the faith, nor fall from it, 
then it is because the see apostolic cannot be transferred from 
Rome, but must ever, to the consummation of the world, 
remain there, and keep that particular church from erring. 
Now to this what says Bellarmine \ What ! why he tells us, 
u that it is a pious and most probable opinion to think so. 
And he reckons four probabilities that it shall never be 
removed from Rome. And I will not deny but some of them 
are fair probabilities ; but yet they are but probabilities, and 
so unable to convince any man. Why but then, what if a 
man cannot think as Bellarmine doth, but that, enforced by 
the light of his understanding, he must think the quite con- 
trary to this which Bellarmine thinks pious, and so probable 2 
What then 2 Why then x Bellarmine himself tells you, that 
the quite contrary proposition to this, namely, that " St. 
Peter's chair may be severed from Rome, and that then that 
particular church may err, is neither heretical nor manifestly 
erroneous." So then, by Bellarmine's own confession, I am 
no heretic, nor in any manifest error, if I say (as indeed I do, 
and think it too) that it is possible for St. Peter's chair to be 
carried from Rome, and that then at least, by his own argu- 
ment, that church may err. 

XVII. Now then, upon the whole matter, and to return 
A. C. p. 42. to A. C. If that lady desired to rely upon a particular infal- 
lible church, it is not to be found on earth. Rome hath not 
that gift, nor her bishop neither. And Bellarmine (who I 
think was as able as any champion that church hath) dares 
not say it is either heresy or a manifest error to say, that the 
apostolic see may be removed thence, and that church not 
only err in faith, but also fall quite away from it. Now I, 
for my part, have not ignorance enough in me to believe that 
that church, which may apostatize at some one time, may not 
err at another ; especially since both her erring and failing 
may arise from other causes besides that which is mentioned 
by the cardinal. And if it may err, it is not infallible. 

u Pia et probabilissima sententia est, nihilominus. 

t-athedram Petri non posse separari a x Contraria sententia nee est haere- 

Roma, et proinde Romanam ecclesiatn tica, nee manifeste erronea. Lib. iv. de 

absolute non posse errare, vel deficere. Rom. Pont. c. 4. . At secundum. 
Lib. iv. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. . Quod 

Fisher the Jesuit, 17 

$. The question was, Which was that church? A friend of Sect. 3-5. 
the lady's would needs defend, that not only the Roman, 
but also the Greek church was right. 

13, When that honourable personage answered, I was not Sect. 4. 
by to hear. But I presume he was so far from granting that 
only the Roman church was right, as that he did not grant it 
right ; and that he took on him no other defence of the poor 
Greek church than was according to truth. 

jp. I told him that the Greek church had plainly changed, 
and taught false in a point of doctrine concerning the 
Holy Ghost ; and that I had heard say, that even his 
majesty should say that the Greek church having erred 
against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost. 
33. You are very bold with his majesty, to relate him upon Sect. 5. 
hearsay. My intelligence serves me not to tell you what his 
majesty said : but if he said it not, you have been too credu- 
lous to believe and too sudden to report it. Princes deserve, 
and were wont to have, more respect than so. If his majesty 
did say it, there is truth in the speech ; the error is yours 
only, by mistaking what is meant by losing the Holy Ghost. 
For a particular church may be said to lose the Holy Ghost 
two ways, or in two degrees. J . The one, when it loses such 
special assistance of that blessed Spirit, as preserves it from 
all dangerous errors and sins, and the temporal punishment 
which is due unto them : and in this sense the Greek church 
did perhaps lose the Holy Ghost ; for they erred against him, 
they sinned against God. And for this, or other sins, they 
were delivered into another Babylonish captivity under the 
Turk ; in which they yet are, and from which God in his 
mercy deliver them. But this is rather to be called an error 
circa Spiritum Sanctum, about the doctrine concerning the 
Holy Ghost, than an error against the Holy Ghost. 2. The 
other is, when it loses not only this assistance, but all assist- 
ance ad hoc, to this, that they may remain any longer a 
true church ; and so Corinth and Ephesus, and divers other 
churches, have lost the Holy Ghost : but in this sense the 
whole Greek church lost not the Holy Ghost ; for they con- 
tinue a true church, in the main substance, to and at this day, 


18 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 5-7. though erroneous in this point which you mention, and per- 
haps in some other too. 

$. The lady's friend, not knowing what to answer, called 
in the bishop, who sitting down first excused himself as 
one unprovided, and not much studied in controversies ; 
and desiring that in case he should fail, yet the pro- 
testant cause might not be thought ill of 

Sect. 6. 23. This is most true : for I did indeed excuse myself, and 
I had great reason so to do. And my reason being grounded 
upon modesty, for the most part, there I leave it. Yet this 
it may be fit others should know, that I had no information 
where the other conferences brake off; no instruction at all 
what should be the ground of this third conference, nor the 
full time of four and twenty hours to bethink myself. And 
this I take upon my credit is most true : whereas you make 
the sifting of these and the like questions to the very bran, 
your daily work, and came throughly furnished to the busi- 
ness, and might so lead on the controversy to what yourself 
pleased, and I was to follow as I could, y St. Augustine said 
once, Scio me invalidum esse, I know I am weak ; and yet he 
made good his cause: and so perhaps may I against you. 
And in that I preferred the cause before my particular credit, 
that which I did was with modesty, and according to reason. 
For there is no reason the weight of this whole cause should 
rest upon any one particular man ; and great reason that the 
personal defects of any man should press himself, but not 
the cause. Neither did I enter upon this service out of any 
forwardness of my own, but commanded to it by supreme 

;JF. It having an hundred better scholars to maintain it 
than he. To which I said, there were a thousand better 
scholars than I to maintain the catholic cause. 

23. In this I had never so poor a conceit of the protestants 1 
cause, as to think that they had but an hundred better than 
myself to maintain it. That which hath an hundred may 
have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than 

y De Util. Credendi, c. 2. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 19 

you. And I shall ever be glad that the church of England Sect. 7-9. 
(which, at this time, if my memory reflect not amiss, I named) 
may have far more able defendants than myself. I shall 
never envy them, but rejoice for her. And I make no ques- 
tion, but that if I had named a thousand, you would have 
multiplied yours into ten thousand for the catholic cause (as 
you call it). And this confidence of yours hath ever been 
fuller of noise than proof. But you proceed. 

jp. Then the question about the Greek church being pro- 
posed, I said as before, that it had erred. 

33. Then I think the question about the Greek church was Sect. 8. 
proposed. But after you had with confidence enough not 
spared to say, that what I would not acknowledge in this 
cause, you would wring and extort from me ; then indeed you 
said as before, that it had erred : and this no man denied. 
But every error denies not Christ, the foundation ; or makes 
Christ deny it, or thrust it from the foundation. 

j. The bishop said, that the error was not in points 

9tf. I. I was not so peremptory. My speech was, that divers Sect. 9. 
learned men, and some of your own, were of opinion, that (as 
the Greeks expressed themselves) it was a question not 
simply fundamental. I know and acknowledge that error, 
of denying the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, 
to be a grievous error in divinity. And sure it would have 
grated the foundation, if they had so denied the procession 
of the Holy Ghost from the Son, as that they had made an 
inequality between the persons. But since their form of 
speech is, " z that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father 
by the Son, and is the Spirit of the Son,"" without making 
any difference in the consubstantiality of the persons, I dare 
not deny them to be a true church for this ; though I confess 
them an erroneous church in this particular. 

II. Now that divers learned men were of opinion, that a 
Filio and per Filium in the sense of the Greek church 
was but a question in modo loquendi, in manner of speech, 

z Non ex Filio, sed Spiritum Filii esse dicimus. Damascen. lib. i. Fid. 
Orth. c. 1 1 . Et Patris per Filium. ibid. 

C 2 


20 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 9. a an( i therefore not fundamental, is evident. b The master and 
his scholars agree upon it. " The Greeks," saith he, " confess 
the Holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Son, with the apostle, 
Galat. iv., and the Spirit of truth, St. John xvi. And since non 
est aliud, it is not another thing to say, the Holy Ghost is the 
Spirit of the Father and the Son, than that he is or pro- 
ceeds from the Father and the Son; in this they seem to 
agree with us in eandem fidei sententiam, upon the same 
sentence of faith, though they differ in words." Now in this 
cause, where the words differ but the sentence of faith is 
the same, c penitus eadem, even altogether the same, can the 
point be fundamental ? You may make them no church (as 
d Bellarmine doth) and so deny them salvation, which cannot 
be had out of the true church ; but I for my part dare not 
so do. And Rome in this particular should be more moderate, 
if it be but because this article (Filioque) was added to the 
Creed by herself. And it is hard to add and anathematize too. 
III. It ought to be no easy thing to condemn a man of 
heresy in foundation of faith ; much less a church ; least of 
all so ample and large a church as the Greek, especially so 
as to make them no church. Heaven gates were not so easily 
shut against multitudes when St. Peter wore the keys at his 

a Pluralitas in voce, salvata unitate q. i . Antiquorum Graecorum a Latinis 

in re, non repugnat unitati fidei. Du- discrepantia in voce potius est, et modo 

rand. lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. explicandi emanationem Spiritus Sancti 

b Magist. i. Sent. d. 1 1. D. Sane sci- quam in ipsa re, &c. Jodocus Clictoveus 

endum est, quod licet in praesenti arti- in Damasc. lib. i. Fid. Orth. c. n. Et 

culo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent, quidam ex Graecis concedunt, quod sit 

tamen sensu non differunt, &c. Ban- a Filio, vel ab eo profluat. Thorn, p. i. 

dinus, lib. i. de Trin. d. n. et Bona- q. 36. A. 2. C. Et Thomas ipse dicit, 

vent, in i Sent. d. n. A. i. q. i. . 12. Spiritum Sanctum procedere mediate a 

Licet Graecis infensissimus, quum dixit Filio. Ib. A. 3. ad i. saltern ratione per- 

Graecos objicere curiositatem Romanis, sonarum spirantium. 

addendo Filioque ; quia sine hujus ar- Respondeo cum Bessarione et Gen- 

ticuli professione salus erat; non re- nadio, Damascenum non negasse Spi- 

spondet negando salutem esse, sed dicit ritum Sanctum procedere ex Filio, quod 

tantum opportunam fuisse determina- ad rem attinet, quum dixerit Spiritum 

tionem propter periculum. Et postea esse imaginem Filii, et per Filium, sed 

.15: Sunt qui volunt sustinere opin- existimasse tutius did per Filium, quam 

ionem Graecorum, et Latinorum, distin- ex Filio, quantum ad modum loquendi, 

guendo duplicem modum procedendi. &c. Bellarm. lib. 2. de Christo, c. 27. . 

Sed forte si duo sapientes, unus Grae- Respondeo igitur. Et Toilet, in S. Joh. 

cus, alter Latinus, uterque verus ama- 15. Ar. 25. et Lutheran. Resp. ad 

tor veritatis, et non propriae dictionis, Resp. 2. Jeremiae Patriarchae. 

&c. de hac visa contrarietate disquire- c Eadem penitus sententia, ubi supra, 

rent, pateret utique tandem ipsam con - Clictov. 

trarietatem non esse veraciter realem, d Bellarm. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. 

sicut est vocalis. Scotus in i. Sent. d. 1 1. . Quod autem apud Graecos. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 21 

own girdle. And it is good counsel which e Alphonsus a Sect. 9,10. 
Castro, one of your own, gives : " Let them consider that 
pronounce easily of heresy, how easy it is for themselves to 
err." Or if you will pronounce, consider what it is that 
separates from the church simply, and not in part only. I 
must needs profess, that I wish heartily (as well as Bothers) 
that those distressed men, whose cross is heavy already, had 
been more plainly and moderately dealt withal, though they 
think a diverse thing from us, than they have been by the 
church of Rome. But hereupon you say you were forced 

$. Whereupon I was forced to repeat what I had formerly 
brought against Dr. White, concerning points funda- 

3$. I. Hereupon it is true, that you read a large discourse Sect. 10. 
out of a book printed, which, you said, was yours ; the par- 
ticulars (all of them at the least) I do not now remember, nor 
did I then approve. But if they be such as were formerly 
brought against Dr. White, they are by him formerly answered. 
The first thing you did was the s righting of St. Augustine ; 
which sentence I do not at all remember was so much as named 
in the conference, much less was it stood upon, and then righted 
by you. Another place of St. Augustine indeed was (which 
you omit, but it comes after) about tradition, to which I 
remit it. But now you tell us of a great proof made out of 
this h place: for these words of yours contain two propositions: 
one, " That all points defined by the church are fundamental ;" 
the other, " That this is proved out of this place of St. 

II. i. For the first, That all points defined by the church 
are fundamental. It was not the least means by which Rome 
grew to her greatness, to blast every opposer she had with 

e Lib. 3. cont. Haeres. fol. 93. A. Ut very learnedly, that my corrupt copy 

videant hi, qui facile de haeresi pro- hath righting instead of reading the 

nuntiant, quara facile etiam ipsi errent : sentence of St. Austin. Whereas I here 

et intelligant, non esse tarn leviter de use the word righting, not as it is op. 

haeresi censendum, &c. In verbo Beati- posed to reading, (as any man may dis- 

tudo. cern A. C. palpably mistakes,) but for 

f Junius, Animad. inBellarm. cont. 2. doing right to St. Austin. And if 1 had 

1. 3. c. 23. meant it for writing, I should not have 

F. First righting the sentence of spelled it so. 

St. Austin : Ferendus est disputator er- h By which is proved, That all points 

rans, &c. Here A. C. p. 44. tells us defined by the church are fundamental. 

22 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10. the name of heretic or schismatic ; for this served to shrivel 
the credit of the persons. And the persons once brought 
into contempt and ignominy, all the good they desired in the 
church fell to dust for want of creditable persons to back and 
support it. To make this proceeding good in these later 
years, this course (it seems) was taken. The school that 
must maintain (and so they do) " that all points defined by 
the church are thereby 'fundamental, k necessary to be be- 
lieved, ] of the substance of the faith;" and that, though it 
be determined quite m extra scripturam. And then n leave 
the wise and active heads to take order, that there be strength 
enough ready to determine what is fittest for them. 

III. But since these men distinguish not, nor you, between 
the church in general, and a general council, which is but her 
representation for determinations of the faith ; though I be 
very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by lawful, 
general, and consenting authority ; though I give as much as 
can justly be given to the definitions of councils truly general ; 
nay, suppose I should grant (which I do not) that general 
councils cannot err ; yet this cannot down with me, that all 
points even so defined are fundamental. For deductions are 
not prime and native principles, nor are superstructures 
foundations. That which is a foundation for all cannot be 
one and another to different Christians in regard of itself; 
for then it could be no common rule for any, nor could the 
souls of men rest upon a shaking foundation. No : if it be a 
true foundation, it must be common to all, and firm under 
all ; in which sense the articles of Christian faith are funda- 
mental. And Irenseus lays this for a ground, that the whole 
church (howsoever dispersed in place) speaks this with one 
mouth : " He which among the guides of the church is best 
able to speak utters no more than this ; and less than this 
the most simple doth not utter." Therefore the Creed (of 

i Your own word. Greg. Naz. de differen. vitae. Cercopes 

k Inconcussa fide ab omnibus Thorn, vocat astutos, et veteratoriae cujusdam 

2. 2ae. q. I. Art. 10. C. improbitatis episcopos, qui artibus suis 

1 Scotus i. Sent. d. ii. q. i. ac dolis omnia concilia perturbabant. 

m Ecclesiae voces etiam extra scriptu- Schol. ib. 

ram. Stap. Relect. con. 4. q. i. Ar. 3. o Quum enim una et eadem fides sit, 

Quae mature judicio definivit, &c. Soli- neque is qui multum de ipsa dicere 

dum est, et etiamsi nullo scripturarum potest, plusquam oportet, dicit ; neque 

aut evidenti, aut probabili testimonio qui parum, ipsam imminuit. Iren.lib. i. 

confirmaretur. ib. advers. Haeres. c. 3. 

n Et penes Cercopes victoria sit ; 

Fisher the Jesuit. 23 

which he speaks) is a common, is a constant foundation. Sect. 10. 
And an explicit faith must be of this in them which have the 
use of reason; for both guides and simple people, all the 
church, utter this. 

IV. Now many things are defined by the church which 
are but deductions out of this, which (suppose them deduced 
right) move far from the foundation ; without which deduc- 
tions explicitly believed, many millions of Christians go to 
heaven; and cannot therefore be fundamental in the faith. 
True deductions from the article may require necessary belief 
in them which are able, and do go along with them from the 
principle to the conclusion. But I do not see, either that the 
learned do make them necessary to all, or any reason why 
they should. Therefore they cannot be fundamental ; and yet 
to some men's salvation they are necessary. 

V. Besides, that which is fundamental in the faith of 
Christ is a rock immovable, and can never be varied. 
Never P. Therefore, if it be fundamental after the church 
hath defined it, it was fundamental before the definition, else 
it is movable; and then no Christian hath where to rest. 
And if it be immovable, as q indeed it is, no decree of a 
council, be it never so general, can alter immovable verities, 
no more than it can change immovable natures. Therefore 
if the church in a council define any thing, the thing defined 
is not fundamental because the church hath defined it, nor 
can be made so by the definition of the church, if it be not so 
in itself. For if the church had this power, she might make 
a new article of the faith, r which the learned amongst your- 
selves deny : for the articles of the faith cannot increase in 
substance, but only in explication 8 . And for this I will be 
judged by Bellarmine, 'who, disputing against Amb. Catharinus 

P Resolutio Occhami est, quod nee Nihil transmutare, &c. Athan. Epist. 

tota ecclesia, nee concilium generate, ad Jovin. de Fide. 

nee summus pontifex potest facere arti- r Occham. Almain. in 3. Sent. d. 25. 

culum, quod non fuit articulus. Sed in q. i. 

dubiis propositionibus potest ecclesia s Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. i. Ar. 7. C. 
determinare, an sint catholicae, &c. t Fides divina non ideo habet certitu- 

Tameii sit determinando non facit quod dinem, quia toti ecclesiae communis est : 

sint catholicaj, quum prius essent ante sed quia nititur authoritate Dei, qui nee 

ecclesiae determinationem, &c. Almain. falli nee fallere potest, quum sit ipsa 

in 3. d. 25. q. r. veritas. lib. 3. de Justif. c. 3. . Quod 

q Regula fidei una omnino est, sola vero concilium. 

ilia immobilis, et irreformabilis. Tertul. Probatio ecclesiae facit ut omnibus 

de Virg. vel. cap. i. In hac fide, &c. innotescat objectum (fidei divinae) esse 


24 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10. about the certainty of faith, tells us, "that divine faith hath 
not its certainty because it is catholic, i. e. common to the 
whole church, but because it builds on the authority of God, 
who is truth itself, and can neither deceive nor be deceived." 
And he adds, " that the probation of the church can make it 
known to all, that the object of divine faith is revealed from 
God, and therefore certain, and not to be doubted ; but the 
church can add no certainty, no firmness to the word of God, 
revealing it. 

VI. Nor is this hard to be further proved out of your own 
school; for u Scotus professeth it in this very particular of 
the Greek church : "If there be," saith he, "a true real dif- 
ference between the Greeks and the Latins about the point 
of the procession of the Holy Ghost, then either they or we 
be vere hceretici, truly and indeed heretics." And he speaks 
this of the old Greeks long before any decision of the church 
in this controversy : for his instance is in St. Basil and Greg. 
Nazianz. on the one side, and St. Hierome, Augustine, and 
Ambrose on the other. " And who dares call any of these 
heretics f is his challenge. I deny not but that Scotus adds 
there, that howsoever this was before, yet ex quo, from the 
time that the catholic church declared it, it is to be held as 
of the substance of faith. But this cannot stand with his 
former principle, if he intend by it, that whatsoever the 
church defines shall be ipso facto, and for that determination's 
sake, fundamental. For if before the determination (sup- 
posing the difference real) some of those worthies were truly 
heretics, (as he confesses,) then somewhat made them so. 
And that could not be the decree of the church, which then 
was not: therefore it must be somewhat really false that 
made them so ; and fundamentally false, if it made them 
heretics against the foundation. But Scotus was wiser than 
to intend this. It may be he saw the stream too strong for 
him to swim against, therefore he went on with the doctrine 
of the time, " that the churches sentence is of the substance 
of faith ;" but meant not to betray the truth : for he goes no 
further than eccle&ia declaramt, since the church hath declared 
it, which is the word that is used by divers x . 

revelatum a Deo, et propter hoc certum ibid. . At inquit. 

et indubitatum ; non autem tribuit fir- u Scotus in i Sent. d. n. q. I. 

mitatem verbo Dei aliquid revelantis. x Bellarm. lib. i. de Cone. Auth. c. 

Fisher ike Jesuit. 25 

VII. Now the 7 master teaches, and the z scholars too, Sect. 10. 
that every thing which belongs to the exposition or declara- 
tion of another intus est, is not another contrary thing, but is 
contained within the bowels and nature of that which is in- 
terpreted, from which, if the declaration depart, it is faulty 
and erroneous ; because, instead of declaring, it gives another 
and contrary a sense. Therefore, when the church declares 
any thing in a council, either that which she declares was 
intus or extra, in the nature and verity of the thing, or out 
of it. If it were extra, without the nature of the thing 
declared, then the declaration of the thing is false, and so, 
far from being fundamental in the faith b . If it were intus, 
within the compass and nature of the thing, though not open 
and apparent to every eye, then the declaration is true, but 
not otherwise fundamental than the thing is which is de- 
clared : for that which is intus cannot be larger or deeper 
than that in which it is; if it were, it could not be intus. 
Therefore nothing is simply fundamental because the church 
declares it, but because it is so in the nature of the thing 
which the church declares. 

VIII. And it is a slight and poor evasion that is com- 
monly used, that the declaration of the church makes it fun- 
damental quoad nos, in respect of us; for it doth not that 
neither : for no respect to us can vary the foundation. The 
church's declaration can bind us to peace and external obe- 
dience, where there is not express letter of scripture and 
sense agreed on ; but it cannot make any thing fundamental 
to us that is not so in it sown nature. For if the church 
can so add that it can by a declaration make a thing to be ^ 

12. Concilia cum definiunt, non faciunt de fide, etsi non ita declarata. Scotus 

aliquid esse infallibilis veritatis, sed in I. d. 1 1. q. I. in fine. Haeretici multa 

declarant. Explicare, Bonavent. in I. d. quae erant implicita fidei nostrae com- 

n. A. i. q. i. ad finem. Explanare, de- pulerunt explicare. Bonavent. in i. d. 

clarare. Thorn, i. q. 36. A. 2. ad. 2. et 2. n. A. i. Q. i. ad finem. Tho. i. q. 36. 

2. q. r. A. 10. ad. i. A. 2. ad. 2. Quamvis apostolica sedes, 

Quid unquam aliud (ecclesia) con- ant generale concilium de haeresi cen- 

ciliorum decretis enisa est, nisi ut quod sere possit, non tamen ideo assertio ali- 

antea simpliciter credebatur, hoc idem qua erit haeresis, quia ecclesia definivit, 

postea diligentius crederetur. Vin. Linn, sed quia fidei catholicae repugnat. Ec- 

cont. haer. c. 32. clesia siquidem sua definitione non facit 

y Sent. i. D. ii. talem assertionem esse haeresin, quum 

z Alb. Mag. in i. Sent. D. n. Art. 7. etiamsi ipsa non definivisset, esset hse- 

a Hoc semper, nee quicquam prae- resis ; sed id efficit ut pateat, &c. Al- 

terea. Vin. Lirin. 0.32. phon. a Castro, lib. i. advers. hares. 

b In nova haeresi veritas prius erat c. 8. fol. 2 1 . D. 

26 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10. fundamental in the faith that was not, then it can take a 
thing away from the foundation, and make it, by declaring, 
not to be fundamental ; which all men grant no power of the 
church can do. " d For the power of adding any thing con- 
trary, and of detracting any thing necessary, are alike for- 
bidden V and alike denied. Now nothing is more apparent 
than this to the eye of all men, that the church of Rome 
hath determined, or declared, or defined (call it what you 
will) very many things that are not in their own nature 
fundamental, and therefore neither are nor can be made so 
by her adjudging them. Now to all this discourse, that the 
church hath not power to make any thing fundamental in the 
faith that intrinsically and in its own nature is not such, 
A. C. is content to say nothing. 

IX. 2. For the second, " That it is proved by this place 
of St. Augustine, That all points defined by the church are 
fundamental. 1 " You might have given me that place cited in 
the margin, and eased my pains to seek it; but it may be 
there was somewhat in concealing it ; for you do so extraor- 
dinarily right this place, that you were loath (I think) any 
body should see how you wrong it. The place of St. Augustine 
is this, against the Pelagians, about remission of original sin 
in infants : " f This is a thing founded : an erring disputer is 
to be borne with in other questions not diligently digested, 
not yet made firm by full authority of the church ; their error 
is to be borne with, but it ought not to go so far that it 
should labour to shake the foundation itself of the church." 
This is the place : but it can never follow out of this place 
(I think) that every thing defined by the church is funda- 

X. For, first, he speaks of a foundation of doctrine in 
scripture, not a church-definition. This appears : for, few 
lines before, he tells us, "s There was a question moved to 
St. Cyprian, whether baptism was concluded to the eighth 
day, as well as circumcision ? And no doubt was made then 

d Ecclesia non amputat necessaria, dus est disputator errans : ibi ferendus 

non apponit snperflua. Vin. Lirin. c. 32. est error, non tantum progredi debet, 

e Deut. iv. 2. ut etiam fundamentum ipsum ecclesiae 

f Fundata res est. In aliis qusestio- quatere moliatur. August. Serm. 14. de 

nibus non diligenter digestis, nondum verb, apost. c. 12. 

plena ecclesiae authoritate firmatis feren- s Ibid. c. 20. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 27 

of the h beginning of sin; and that, 'out of this thing, about Sect. 10. 
which no question was moved, that question that was made 
was answered. 11 And again; " k That St. Cyprian took that, 
which he gave in answer from the foundation of the church, 
to confirm a stone that was shaking." Now St. Cyprian, in 
all the answer that he gives, hath not one word of any defini- 
tion of the church : therefore ea res, that thing by which he 
answered, was a foundation of prime and settled scripture- 
doctrine, not any definition of the church : therefore, that 
which he took out of the foundation of the church, to fasten 
the stone that shook, was not a definition of the church, but 
the foundation of the church itself, the scripture, upon which 
it is builded ; as appeareth in the l Milevitan council, where 
the rule by which Pelagius was condemned is the rule of 
m scripture. Therefore St. Augustine goes on in the same 
sense, that the disputer is not to be borne any longer, that 
" "shall endeavour to shake the foundation itself upon which 
the whole church is grounded." 

XL Secondly, if St. Augustine did mean \>y fawndtd, and 
foundation, the definition of the church, because of these words, 
" This thing is founded, this is made firm by full authority of 
the church ;" and the words following these, " to shake the 
foundation of the church ;" yet it can never follow, out of any 
or all these circumstances, (and these are all,) that all points 
defined by the church are fundamental in the faith. For, 
first, no man denies but the church is a foundation, that 
things defined by it are founded upon it; and yet hence it 
cannot follow that the thing that is so founded is fundamental 
in the faith : for things may be " P founded upon human 
authority," and be very certain, yet not fundamental in the 
faith. Nor yet can it follow, " This thing is founded, there- 
fore every thing determined by the church is founded." Again, 
that which follows, that those things are not to be opposed 
which are made firm by full authority of the church, cannot 
conclude they are therefore fundamental in the faith : for full 

h Origine peccati. m Rom. v. 15. 

i Ex ea re, unde nulla erat quaestio, n Ut fundamentura ipsura ecclesiae 

soluta est exorta quaestio. quatere moliatur. 

k Hoc de fundamento ecclesiae sump- o i Tim. iii. 15. 

sit ad confirmandum lapidem nutantem. P Mos fundatissimus. S. August, ep. 

1 Concil. Milevit. c. 2. 28. 

28 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10. church-authority (always the time that included the holy 
apostles being passed by, and not comprehended in it) is but 
church-authority ; and church-authority, when it is at full 
sea, is not q simply divine, therefore the sentence of it not 
fundamental in the faith. And yet no erring disputer may 
be endured to " shake the foundation' 1 which the church in 
council lays. But plain scripture, with evident sense, or a full 
demonstrative argument, must have room, where a wrangling 
and erring disputer may not be allowed it. And there is 
r neither of these but may convince the definition of the 
council, if it be ill founded. And the articles of the faith 
may easily prove it is not fundamental, if indeed and verily it 
be not so. 

XII. And I have read somebody that says, (is it not 
you ?) that things are fundamental in the faith two ways : 
one, in their matter, such as are all things which be so in 
themselves ; the other, in the manner, such as are all things 
that the church hath defined and determined to be of faith : 
and that so some things that are de modo, of the manner of 
being, are of faith. But, in plain truth, this is no more than 
if you should say, some things are fundamental in the faith, 
and some are not. For, wrangle while you will, you shall 
never be able to prove that any thing which is but de modo, 
a consideration of the manner of being only, can possibly be 
fundamental in the faith. 

XIII. And since you make such a foundation of this place, 
I will a little view the mortar with which it is laid by you. 
It is a venture but I shall find it s untempered. Your assertion 
is, " All points defined by the church are fundamental. " Your 
proof, this place ; " Because that is not to be shaken which 
is settled by tfull authority of the church." Then (it seems) 
your meaning is, that this point there spoken of, u the remis- 
sion of original sin in baptism of infants," was defined, when 
St. Augustine wrote this, by a full sentence of a general 
council. First, if you say it was, u Bellarmine will tell you it 

q Stapleton. Relect. cont. 4. q. 3. apertissimum in evangelic. S. August. 

Art. I. cont. Fund. c. 4. 

r Quae quidem, si tarn manifesta mon- s Ezek. xiii. 1 1. 
stratur, ut in dubium venire noil possit, t Plena ecclesiae authoritate. 
praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus, qui- u De Author. Concil. lib. ii. c. 5. . A 

bus in catholica teneor. Ita si aliquid solis particularibus. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 29 

is false ; and that the Pelagian heresy was never condemned Sect. 10. 
in an oecumenical council, but only in nationals. But Bellar- 
mine is deceived: for while the Pelagians stood out impu- 
dently against national councils, some of them defended Nes- 
torius ; which gave occasion to the first x Ephesine council to 
excommunicate and depose them. And yet this will not serve 
your turn for this place ; for St. Augustine was then dead, 
and therefore could not mean the sentence of that council in 
this place. Secondly, if you say it was not then defined in 
an oecumenical synod, plena authoritas ecclesice, " the full 
authority of the church" there mentioned, doth not stand 
properly for the decree of an oacumenical council, but for 
some national ; as this was condemned in a y national council : 
and then, the full authority of the church here is no more 
than the full authority of the church of z Afric. And I hope 
that authority doth not make all points defined by it to be 
fundamental. You will say, Yes, if that council be confirmed 
by the pope. And then I must ever wonder why St. Augus- 
tine should say " the full authority of the church," and not 
bestow one word upon the pope, by whose authority only that 
council, as all other, have their fulness of authority in your 
judgment : an inexpiable omission, if this doctrine concerning 
the pope were true. 

XIV. But here A. 0. steps in again to help the Jesuit ; A. C. p. 45. 
and he tells us, over and over again, " That all points made 
firm by full authority of the church are fundamental :" so, firm 
he will have them, and therefore fundamental. But I must 
tell him, that, first, it is one thing in nature, and religion too, 
to be firm, and another thing to be fundamental : these two 
are not convertible. It is true that every thing that is funda- 
mental is firm ; but it doth not follow that every thing that %/" 
is firm is fundamental. For many a superstructure is exceed- 
ing firm, being fast and close joined to a sure foundation; 
which yet no man will grant is fundamental. Besides, what- 
soever is fundamental in the faith is fundamental to the 
church, which is one by the a unity of faith. Therefore, if 
every thing defined by the church be fundamental in the 

x Can - i. et 4. was but a provincial of Numidia, not a 

y Concil. Milevit. can. 2. plenary of Afric. 

z Nay, if your own Capellus be true, a A fide enim una ecclesia dicitur 

(De Appel. Eccl. Afric. c. 2. n. 5.) it una. Almain. in 3. Sent. Dist. 25. q. i. 

30 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10. faith , then the church's definition is the church's foundation. 
And so upon the matter the church can lay her own founda- 
tion ; and then the church must be in absolute and perfect 
being before so much as her foundation is laid. Now this is 
so absurd for any man of learning to say, that by and by 
after A. C. is content to affirm, not only that the prima credi- 
bilia, the articles of faith, " but all which so pertains to super- 
natural, divine, and infallible Christian faith, as that thereby 
Christ doth dwell in our hearts, &c. is the foundation of the 
church under Christ, the prime foundation." And here he is 
out again : for, first, all which pertains to supernatural, divine, 
and infallible Christian faith, is not by and by b fundamental 
in the faith to all men. And, secondly, the whole discourse 
here is concerning faith, as it is taken objective, for the object 
of faith and thing to be believed: but that faith by which 
Christ is said to dwell in our hearts is taken subjective, for 
the habit and act of faith. Now, to confound both these in 
one period of speech can have no other aim than to confound 
the reader. But to come closer both to the Jesuit and his 
defender, A. C. If all points made firm by full authority of 
the church be fundamental, then they must grant that every 
thing determined by the council of Trent is fundamental in 
the faith : for with them, it is firm and catholic which that 
council decrees. Now that council decrees, " c That orders 
collated by the bishop are not void, though they be given 
without the consent or calling of the people, or of any secular 
power :" and yet they can produce no author that ever 
acknowledged this definition of the council fundamental in the 
faith. It is true, I do not grant that the decrees of this 
council are made by full authority of the church ; but they 
do both grant and maintain it : and therefore it is argumen- 
tum ad hominem, a good argument against them, that a thing 

b Aliquid pertinet ad fidem duplici- Thorn, p. i. q. 32. A. 4. C. " There are 

ter. Uno raodo directe, sicut ea quse things necessary to the faith, and things 

nobis sunt principaliter divinitus tra- which are but accessory," &c. Hooker, 

dita, ut Deum esse trinum, &c. Et Eccl. Pol. b. iii. . 3. 
circa haec opinari falsum hoc ipso indu- c Si quis dixerit ordines ab episcopis 

cit haeresin, &c. Alio modo indirecte. collates sine populi vel potestatis ssecu- 

Ex quibus consequitur aliquid contra- laris consensu ant vocatione irritos esse ; 

rium fidei, &c. Et in his aliquis potest anathema sit. Cone. Trid. Sess. 23. 

falsum opinari absque periculo haeresis, can. 7. 
donee sequela ilia ei innotescat, &c. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 31 

so defined may be firm, for so this is, and yet not funda- Sect. 10. 
mental, for so this is not. 

XV. But A. C. tells us further, "That if one may deny A. C. P . 45- 
or doubtfully dispute against any one determination of the 
church, then he may against another, and another, and so 
against all; since all are made firm to us by one and the 
same divine revelation, sufficiently applied by one and the 
same full authority of the church ; which being weakened in 
any one cannot be firm in any other. 1 ' First, A. C. might 
have acknowledged that he borrowed the former part of this 
out of d Vincentius Lirinensis. And as that learned Father 
uses it I subscribe to it, but not as A. C. applies it : for Vin- 
centius speaks there de catholico dogmate, of catholic maxims ; 
and A. C. will force it to every determination of the church. 
Now catholic maxims, which are properly fundamental, are .38. n. 21. 
certain prime truths deposited with the church, and not so 
much determined by the church as published and manifested, 
and so made firm by her to us. For so e Vincentius ex- 
pressly. Where all that the church doth is but ut hoc idem 
quod antea, that the same thing may be believed which was 
before believed, but with more light and clearness, and (in 
that sense) with more firmness than before. Now in this 
sense give way to a disputator errans, every cavilling disputer, 
to deny or quarrel at the maxims of Christian religion, any 
one, or any part of any one of them ; and why may he not 
then take liberty to do the like of any other, till he have 
shaken all ? But this hinders not the church herself, nor any 
appointed by the church, to examine her own decrees, and to 
see that she keep dogmata deposita, the principles of faith 
unblemished and uncorrupted. For if she do not so, but that 
f novitia veteribus, new doctrines be added to the old, the 
church, which is sacmrium veritatis, the repository of verity, 
may be changed in lupanar errorurn, (I am loath to English 
it.) By the church then this may, nay, it ought to be done ; 

d Abdicata enim qualibet parte catho- ut quod antea simpliciter credebatur, 

lici dogmatis, alia quoque atque item hoc idem postea diligentius crederetur, 

alia, &c. Quid aliud ad extremum se- &c. Vin. Lirin. cont. Haeres. c. 32. 
quetur, nisi ut totum pariter repudie- f Impiorum et turpium errorum lu- 

tur? Vin. Lirin. cont. Haeres. c. 31. panar; ubi erat ante castae et incor- 

e Ecclesia depositorum apud se dog- ruptae sacrarium veritatis. Vin. Lirin. 

matum custos, &c. Denique quid un- cont. Haeres. 0.31. 
quam conciliorum decretis enisa est, nisi, 

32 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10. however, every wrangling disputer may neither deny, nor 
doubtfully dispute, much less obstinately oppose the deter- 
minations of the church, no not where they are not dogmata 
deposita, these deposited principles. But if he will be so bold 
to deny or dispute the determinations of the church, yet 
that may be done without shaking the foundation, where the 
determinations themselves belong but to the fabric, and not 
to the foundation. For a whole frame of building may be 
shaken, and yet the foundation where it is well laid remain 
A. C. p. 46. firm. And therefore after all, A. C. dares not say the foun- 
dation is shaken, but only in a sort. And then it is as true, 
that in a sort it is not shaken. 

XVI. 2. For the second part of his argument, A. C. must 
pardon me if I dissent from him. For first, " All deter- 
minations of the church are not made firm to us by one and 
the same divine revelation." For some determinations of the 
church are made firm to us per chirographum Sscripturce, 
by the handwriting of the scripture ; and that is authentical 
indeed. Some other decisions, yea and of the church too, 
are made, or may be (if h Stapleton inform us right), without 
an evident, nay without so much as a probable testimony 
of holy writ. But iBellarmine falls quite off in this, and 
confesses in express terms, " That nothing can be certain 
by certainty of faith, unless it be contained immediately in 
the word of God, or be deduced out of the word of God by 
evident consequence." And if nothing can be certain but so, 
then certainly no determination of the church itself, if that 
determination be not grounded upon one of these, either 
express word of God, or evident consequence out of it. So 
here is little agreement in this great point between Stapleton 
and Bellarmine. Nor can this be shifted off, as if Stapleton 
spake of the word of God written, and Bellarmine of the 
word of God unwritten, (as he calls tradition.) For Bellar- 
mine treats there of the knowledge which a man hath of the 
certainty of his own salvation. And I hope A. C. will not 
tell us, there is any tradition extant unwritten by which par- 

& Vin. Lirin. cont. Haeres. c. 32. titudine fidei, nisi aut immediate con- 

h Etiamsi ntillo scripturarum aut tineatur in verbo Dei, aut ex verbo 

evidenti aut probabili testimonio, &c. Dei per evidentem consequentiam dedu- 

Stapleton, Relect. cont. 4. q. i. Art. 3. catur. Bellarm. lib. iii. de Justificat. 

Non potest aliquid certum esse cer- c. 8. . Prima ratio. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 33 

ticular men may have assurance of their several salvations. Sect. 10. 

Therefore Bellarmine's whole disputation there is quite beside 

the matter : or else he must speak of the written word, and 

so lie cross to Stapleton, as is mentioned. But to return. 

If A. C. will, he may, but I cannot believe, that a definition 

of the church which is made by the express word of God, 

and another which is made without so much as a probable 

testimony of it, or a clear deduction from it, are made firm 

to us by one and the same divine revelation. Nay, I must 

say in this case, that the one determination is firm by divine 

revelation, but the other hath no divine revelation at all, but 

the churches authority only. 

2. Secondly, I cannot believe neither, " that all deter- 
minations of the church are sufficiently applied by one and 
the same full authority of the church." For the authority of 
the church, though it be of the same fulness in regard of 
itself, and of the power which it commits to general councils 
lawfully called, yet it is not always of the same fulness of 
knowledge and sufficiency, nor of the same fulness of con- 
science and integrity, to apply dogmata fidei, that which is 
dogmatical in the faith. For instance, I think you dare not 
deny but the council of Trent was lawfully called ; and yet 
I am of opinion, that few, even of yourselves, believe that the 
council of Trent hath the same fulness with the council of 
Nice, in all the forenamed kinds or degrees of fulness. 
Thirdly ; suppose " that all determinations of the church are 
made firm to us by one and the same divine revelation, and 
sufficiently applied by one and the same full authority ;*" yet 
it will not follow that they are all alike fundamental in the 
faith. For I hope A. C. himself will not say, that the de- 
finitions of the church are in better condition than the pro- 
positions of canonical scripture. Now all propositions of 
canonical scripture are alike firm, because they all alike pro- 
ceed from divine revelation ; but they are not all alike fun- 
damental in the faith. For this proposition of Christ to St. 
Peter and St. Andrew, Follow me, and I will make you fishers 
ofmen k , is as firm a truth as that which he delivered to his 
disciples, That he must die, and rise again the third day 1 ; for 

k Matt. iv. 19. i Matt. xvi. 21. 

34 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 10, n. both proceed from the same divine revelation, out of the 
mouth of our Saviour ; and both are sufficiently applied by 
one and the same full authority of the church, which receives 
the whole Gospel of St. Matthew to be canonical and infallible 
scripture. And yet both these propositions of Christ are not 
alike fundamental in the faith. For I dare say no man shall 
be saved (in the ordinary way of salvation) that believes not 
the death and the resurrection of Christ. And I believe 
A. C. dares not say that no man shall be saved into whose 
capacity it never came that Christ made St. Peter and 
Andrew fishers of men. And yet should he say it, nay, 
should he shew it sub annulo piscatoris, no man will believe 
it that hath not made shipwreck of his common notions. 
Now if it be thus between proposition and proposition is- 
suing out of Christ's own mouth, I hope it may well be so 
also between even just and true determinations of the church ; 
that supposing them alike true and firm, yet they shall not 
be alike fundamental to all men's belief. 

$. Secondly, I required to know what points the bishop 
would account fundamental. He said, all the points of 
the Creed were such. 

Sec. n. 33. I. Against this I hope you except not. For since 
the m Fathers make the Creed the rule of faith ; n since the 
agreeing sense of scripture with those articles are the two 
regular precepts by which a divine is governed about the 
faith ; since your own council of Trent decrees, That it is 
that principle of faith in which all that profess Christ do 
necessarily agree, et fundamentum firmum et unicum, not the 
firm alone, but the only foundation ; since it is excommunica- 
tion Vipso jure for any man to contradict the articles con- 
tained in that Creed ; since the whole body of the faith is so 
contained in the Creed, as that the q substance of it was be- 
lieved even before the coming of Christ, though not so ex- 
pressly as since in the number of the articles ; since r Bet- 
in Tertull. Apol. contra Gentes, c. 47. P Bonavent. ibid. Dub. 2. et 3. in 
de veland. Virg. c. i. S. Aiigust. Serm. literam. 

15. de Temp. cap. 2. Rufin. in Symb. <1 Thom. 2. sae. q. i. Art. 7. c. 
apud Cyprian, p. 357. r Bellarm. lib. iv. de Verb. Dei non 

' Alb. Mag. in i. Sent. D. 1 1. A. 7. script, c. 1 1. . Primum est. 
Concil. Trident. Sess. 3. 

fisher the Jesuit. 35 

larmine confesses, that all things simply necessary for all Sect. n. 
men's salvation are in the Creed and the Decalogue; what 
reason can you have to except ? And yet, for all this, every- 
thing fundamental is not of a like nearness to the foundation, 
nor of equal primeness in the faith. And my granting the 
Creed to be fundamental doth not deny, but that there are 
squcedam prima credibilia, certain prime principles of faith, 
in the bosom whereof all other articles lay wrapped and folded 
up. One of which, since Christ, is that of 4 St. John ; Every 
spirit that confesseth Jesus Christ come in the flesh is of God. 
And one, both before the coming of Christ and since, is that 
of St. Paul ; u He that comes to God must believe that God is, 
and that he is a rewarder of them that seek him. 

II. Here A. C. tells you, " That either I must mean, that A. C. p. 46. 
those points are only fundamental which are expressed in 
the Creed, or those also which are infolded. If I say those 
only which are expressed, then," saith he, " to believe the scrip- 
tures is not fundamental, because it is not expressed. If I 
say those which are infolded in the articles, then some un- 
written church traditions may be accounted fundamental." 
The truth is, I said, and say still, that all the points of the 
Apostles 1 Creed, as they are there expressed, are fundamental. 
And therein I say no more than some of your best learned 
have said before me. But I never either said, or meant, that 
they only are fundamental : that they are x fundamentum 
unicum, the only foundation, is the council of Trent's ; it is 
not mine. Mine is, " That the belief of scripture to be the 
word of God and infallible," is an equal, or rather a pre- 
ceding prime principle of faith, with or to the whole body 
of the Creed. And this agrees (as before I told the Jesuit) 
with one of your own great masters, Albertus Magnus y ; who 
is not far from that proposition in terminis. So here the 
very foundation of A. C.'s dilemma falls off. For I say not, 
that only the points of the Creed are fundamental, whether 
expressed or not expressed : that all of them are, that I say. 
And yet, though the foundation of his dilemma be fallen 

s Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. i. A. 7. C. fidei est concors scripturarum sensus 

c i John iv. 2. u Heb. xi. 6. cum articulis fidei : quia illis duobus 

* Cone. Trident. Sess. 3. regiilaribus praeceptis regitur theo- 

y In i Sent. D. u. A. 7. Regula logus. 

36 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 1, 1 2. away, I will take the boldness to tell A. C., that if I had said 
that those articles only which are expressed in the Creed are 
fundamental, it would have been hard to have excluded the 
scripture, upon which the Creed itself in every point is 
grounded ; for nothing is supposed to shut out its own foun- 
dation. And if I should now say that some articles are 
fundamental which are infolded in the Creed, it would not 
follow that therefore some unwritten traditions were funda- 
mental. Some traditions I deny not true and firm, and of 
great both authority and use in the church, as being aposto- 
lical, but yet not fundamental in the faith : and it would be 
a mighty large fold which should lap up traditions within the 
Creed. As for that tradition, that the books of holy scrip- 
tures are divine, and infallible in every part, I will handle that 
when I come to the z proper place for it. 

$. I asked, how then it happened (as Mr. Rogers saith) 
that the English church is not yet resolved what is the 
right sense of the article of Christ's descending into 

Sect. i?. 9$, I. The English church never made doubt (that I know) 
what was the sense of that article. The words are so plain, 
they bear their meaning before them. She was content to 
put that a article among those to which she requires subscrip- 
tion ; not as doubting of the sense, but to prevent the cavils 
of some who had been too busy in crucifying that article, and 
in making it all one with the article of the cross, or but an 
exposition of it. 

II. And surely, for my part, I think the church of Eng- 
land is better resolved of the right sense of this article than 
the church of Home ; especially if she must be tried by her 
writers, as you try the church of England by Mr. Rogers : 
for you cannot agree whether this article be a mere tradition, 
or whether it hath any place of scripture to warrant it. 
b Scotus and c Stapleton allow it no footing in scripture; but 
d Bellarmine is resolute that this article is everywhere in 
scripture ; and e Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed. 

z Sect. 1 6. num. i. d Scripturae passim hoc docent. Bel- 

a Art. III. ]arm. de Christ, lib. iv. c. 6 et 12. 

b Scotus in i. D. ii. q. i. e Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. i. A. 9. ad i. 
c Stapleton, Relect. Con. 5. q. 5. Art. I. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 37 

The church of England never doubted it ; and f St. Augustine Sect. 12, 13. 
proves it. 

III. And yet again you are different for the sense : for you 
agree not whether the soul of Christ, in triduo mortis, in the 
time of his death, did go down into hell really, and was 
present there, or virtually, and by effects only: for s Thomas 
holds the first, and h Durand the latter. Then you agree not 
whether the soul of Christ did descend really and in essence 
into the lowest pit of hell and place of the damned, as 'Bellar- 
mine once held probable, and proved it ; or really only into 
that place or region of hell which you call limbum patrum, 
and then, but virtually, from thence into the lower hell ; to 
which k Bellarmine reduces himself, and gives his reason, 
because it is the Common opinion of the school. Now the 
church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed, 
and believes them without further dispute, and in that sense 
which the ancient primitive Fathers of the church agreed in. 
And yet, if any in the church of England should not be 
throughly resolved in the sense of this article, is it not as 
lawful for them to say, " I conceive thus or thus of it, yet if 
any other way of his descent be found truer than this, I deny 
it not, but as yet I know no other,' 1 as it was for m Durand 
to say it, and yet not impeach the foundation of the faith \ 

$. The bishop said that Mr. Rogers was but a private man. 
But (said I) if Mr. Rogers (writing as he did by public 
authority) be accounted only a private man, 

i$ I. I said truth when I said Mr. Rogers was a private Sect. 13. 
man. And I take it, you will not allow every speech of every 
man, though allowed by authority to have his books printed, 
to be the doctrine of the church of Rome. n This hath been 

f S. August, ep. 99. Sent. Dist. 22. q. 3. num. 9. 
e Per suam esseutiam. Thorn, p. 3. n And this was an ancient fault too, 
q. 52. A. 2. C. for St. Augustine checks at it in his 
li Durand. in 3. D. 11. q. 3. time. Noli colligere calumnias ex epi- 
i Bellarm. <le Christ, lib. iv. c. 16. scoporum scriptis, sive Hilarii, sive Gy- 
le Bellarm. Recog. p. n. priani et Agrippini. Primo, quia hoc 
1 Sequuntur enim. Thorn, p. 3. q. 52. genus literarum ab authoritate canonis 
A. 2. distinguendum est. Non enim sic le- 
nv Non est pertinaciter asserendum, guntur tanquam ita ex iis testimonium 
quin anima Christi per alium modum proferatur, ut contra sentire non liceat, 
nobis ignotum potuerit descendere ad sicubi forte aliter sentirent, quam veri- 
infernum : nee nos negamus alium mo- tas postulat. S. August, ep. 48, &c. 
dum esse forsitaii veriorem ; sed fate- And yet these were far greater men in 
mur nos ilium ignorare. Durand. in 3. their generations than Mr. Rogers was. 

D 3 

38 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 13. oft complained of on both sides the imposing particular 
men's assertions upon the church yet I see you mean not to 
leave it. And surely, as controversies are now handled (by 
some of your party) at this day, I may not say it is the sense 
of the article in hand, but I have long thought it a kind of 
descent into hell to be conversant in them. I would the 
authors would take heed in time, and not seek to blind the 
people, or cast a mist before evident truth, lest it cause a 
final descent to that place of torment. But since you will 
hold this course, Stapleton was of greater note with you than 
Mr. Rogers his Exposition, or Notes upon the Articles of the 
Church of England, is with us : and as he, so his Rejection. 
And is it the doctrine of the church of Rome which Stapleton 
affirms, " The scripture is silent that Christ descended into 
hell, and that there is a catholic and an apostolic church ?" 
If it be, then what will become of the pope's supremacy over 
the whole church ? Shall he have his power over the catholic 
church given him expressly in the scripture, in the vkeys, to 
enter, and in ^pasce, to feed when he is in, and when he had 
fed, to r confirm; and in all these, not to err and fail in his 
ministration ? and is the catholic church, in and over which 
he is to do all these great things, quite left out of the scrip- 
ture? Belike the Holy Ghost was careful to give him his 
power, yes, in any case, but left the assigning of his great 
cure, the catholic church, to tradition. And it were well for 
him if he could so prescribe for what he now claims. 

II. But what if after all this Mr. Rogers there says no 
such thing? as in truth he doth not. His words are, " S A11 
Christians acknowledge he descended ; but in the interpreta- 
tion of the article there is not that consent that were to be 
wished." What is this to the church of England more than 
others ? And again, " Hill we know the native and undoubted 
sense of this article." Is Mr. Rogers' " we" the church of 
England, or rather his and some others' judgment in the 
church of England ? 

A. C. p. 47. III. Now here A. C. will have somewhat again to say, 
though, God knows, it is to little purpose. It is, " That the 

o Stapl. Cont. 5. q. 5. A. i. s Rogers in Articulis Eccles. Augl. 

P Matt. xvL 19. Art. III. 
q John xxL 15. 1 6. t Ibid, 

r Luke xxii. 32. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 39 

Jesuit urged Mr. Rogers 1 book because it was set out by Sect. 13. 
public authority, and because the book bears the title of the 
Catholic Doctrine of the Church of England." A. C. may un- 
doubtedly urge Mr. Rogers, if he please ; but he ought not to 
say that his opinion is the doctrine of the church of England, 
for neither of the reasons by him expressed. First, not 
because his book was publicly allowed : for many books 
among them, as well as among us, have been printed by 
public authority, as containing nothing in them contrary to 
faith and good manners, and yet containing many things in 
them of opinion only or private judgment, which yet is far 
from the avowed positive doctrine of the church, the church 
having as yet determined neither way by open declaration 
upon the words or things controverted. And this is more 
frequent among their schoolmen than among any of our con- 
troversers, as is well known. Nor, secondly, because his book 
bears the title of the Catholic Doctrine of the Church of Eng- 
land : for suppose the worst, and say Mr. Rogers thought a 
little too well of his own pains, and gave his book too high a 
title ; is his private judgment therefore to be accounted the 
catholic doctrine of the church of England ? Surely no ; no 
more than I should say, every thing said by u Thomas or 
x Bonaventure is angelical or seraphical doctrine, because one 
of these is styled in the church of Rome seraphical, and the 
other angelical doctor. And yet their works are printed by 
public authority, and that title given them. 

IV. " Yea, but our private authors," saith A. C., " are not A. C. p. 47. 
allowed (for aught I know) in such a like sort to express our 
catholic doctrine in any matter subject to question." Here 
are two limitations which will go far to bring A. C. off, 
whatsoever I shall say against him : for, first, let me instance 
in any private man that takes as much upon him as Mr. Rogers 
doth, he will say he knew it not, his assertion here being no 
other than " for aught he knows." Secondly, if he be unwilling 
to acknowledge so much, yet he will answer, It is not just in 
such a like sort as Mr. Rogers doth it, that is, perhaps, it is 
not the very title of his book. But well then ; is there never 
a private man allowed in the church of Rome to express your 

u Angelici D. S. Thorn, summa. vent. Doctoris Seraphici in lib. iii. Sent. 

x Celebratissimi Patris Dom. Bona- Disputat. ' 

40 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 13, 14. catholic doctrine in any matter subject to question ? What ! 
not in any matter? Were not Vega and Soto two private 
men ? Is it not a matter subject to question, to great question 
in these days, whether a man may be certain of his being in 
the state of salvation, certitudine Jidei, by the certainty of 
faith? Doth not yBellarmine make it a controversy? and is 
it not a part of your catholic faith, if it be determined in the 
z council of Trent? And yet these two great friars of their 
time, Dominions Soto and Andreas Vega a , were of contrary 
opinions, and both of them challenged the decree of the 
council; and so, consequently, your catholic faith to be as 
each of them concluded : and both of them wrote books to 
maintain their opinions, and both of their books were pub- 
lished by authority. And therefore I think it is allowed in 
the church of Rome to private men to express your catholic 
doctrine, and in a matter subject to question. And therefore 
also, if another man in the church of England should be of 
a contrary opinion to Mr. Eogers, and declare it under the 
title of the catholic doctrine of the church of England, this 
were no more than Soto and Vega did in the church of Rome. 

A. c. p. 47. And I, for my part, cannot but wonder A. C. should not know 
it ; for he says that, for aught he knows, private men are not 
allowed so to express their catholic doctrine. And in the 
same question both Catharinus and b Bellarmine take on them 
to express your catholic faith, the one differing from the other 
almost as much as Soto and Vega, and perhaps in some 
respect more. 

$, But if Mr. Rogers be only a private man, in what book 
may we find the protestamV public doctrine ? The bishop 
answered that to the Book of Articles they were all 

Sect. 14. 23. I. What ! was I so ignorant to say the articles of the 
church of England were the public doctrine of all the pro- 
testants ? or that all the protestants were sworn to the arti- 
cles of the church of England, as this speech seems to imply ? 
Sure I was not. Was not the immediate speech before of 

y Bellarm. de Justific. lib. iii. c, I et 1 4. concilii Tridentini. 

z Huic concilio catholic! omnes inge- a Hist. Concil. Trident, lib. ii. p. 245. 

ilia sua et judicia spoil te subjiciunt. edit. Lat. Leidae, 1622. 
Bellarm. de Justific. lib. iii. c. 3. . Sed b Bellarm. de Justific. lib. iii. c. 3. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 41 

the church of England 2 and how comes the subject of the Sect. 14. 
speech to be varied in the next lines ? Nor yet speak I this 
as if other protestants did not agree with the church of 
England in the chiefest doctrines, and in the main exceptions 
which they jointly take against the Roman church ; as ap- 
pears by their several confessions. But if A. C. will say A. C. p. 47. 
(as he doth), " That because there was speech before of the 
church of England, the Jesuit understood me in a limited 
sense, and meant only the protestants of the English church ;" 
be it so ; there is no great harm done c but this, that the 
Jesuit offers to inclose me too much. For I did not say that 
the book of articles only was the continent of the church of 
England's public doctrine : she is not so narrow, nor hath 
she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges 
hers ; nor doth she wittingly permit any crossing of her 
public declarations; yet she is not such a shrew to her 
children as to deny her blessing, or denounce an anathema 
against them, if some peaceably dissent in some particulars 
remoter from the foundation, as your own schoolmen differ. 
And if the church of Rome, since she grew to her greatness, 
had not been so fierce in this course, and too particular 
in determining too many things, and making them matters 
of necessary belief, which had gone for many hundreds of 
years before only for things of pious opinion, Christendom 
(I persuade myself) had been in happier peace at this day 
than (I doubt) we shall ever live to see it. 

II. Well ; but A. C. will prove the church of England a A. C. p. 48. 
shrew, and such a shrew ; for, in her Book d of Canons, she 
excommunicates every man who shall hold any thing con- 
trary to any part of the said articles. So A. C. But surely, 
these are not the very words of the canon ; nor, perhaps, the 
sense. Not the words ; for they are, " Whosoever shall affirm 
that the articles are in any part superstitious or erroneous, 1 ' 
&c. And perhaps not the sense; for it is one thing for a 
man to hold an opinion privately within himself, and another 
thing boldly and publicly to affirm it. And again, it is one 
thing to hold contrary to some part of an article, which, per- 
haps, may be but in the manner of expression ; and another 

c And therefore A. C. needs not make such a noise about it as he doth, 
p. 48. d Can. 5. 

42 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 14, 1 5. thing positively to affirm, that the articles, in any part of 
them, are superstitious and erroneous. But this is not the 
main of the business : for though the church of England de- 
nounce excommunication, as is before expressed, yet she comes 
far short of the church of Rome's severity ; whose anathe- 
mas are not only for thirty-nine articles, but for very many 
more, f above one hundred in matters of doctrine ; and that, 
in many points, as far remote from the foundation, though 
to the far greater rack of men's consciences, they must be all 

A. C. p. 45. made fundamental, if that church have once determined 
them : whereas the church of England never declared that 
every one of her articles are fundamental in the faith. For 
it is one thing to say no one of them is superstitious or erro- 
neous, and quite another to say every one of them is funda- 
mental, and that in every part of it, to all men's belief. 
Besides, the church of England prescribes only to her own 
children, and, by those articles, provides but for her own 
peaceable consent in those doctrines of truth ; but the church 
of Rome severely imposes her doctrine upon the whole world 
under pain of damnation. 

,$. And that the scriptures only, not any unwritten tradi- 
tion, was the foundation of their faith. 

Sect. 15. 3$. I. The church of England grounded her positive arti- 
cles upon scripture ; and her negative do refute there, where 
the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed by scripture, nor 
directly to be concluded out of it. And here, not the church 
of England only, but all protestants agree most truly and 
most strongly in this, That the scripture is sufficient to 
salvation, and contains in it all things necessary to it. The 
Fathers s are plain ; the h schoolmen not strangers in it : and 

e Can. 5. f Concil. Trident. Verbo Dei non scripto, cap. n, saith, 

g S. Basil, de vera et pia Fide, that St. Augustine speaks de illis dog- 

Manifesta defectio fidei est importare matibus quae necessaria sunt omnibus 

quicquam eorum quae scripta non sunt. simpliciter, of those points of faith 

S. Hilar. lib. ii. ad Const. Aug. Fidem which are necessary simply for all men. 

tantum secundum ea quae scripta sunt So far then he grants the question, 

desiderantem, et hoc qui repudiat, An- And that you may know it fell not 

tichristus est, et qui simulat, anathema from him on the sudden, he had said 

est. S. Aug. lib. ii. de Doctr. Chris- as much before in the beginning of the 

tian. c. 9. In iis quae aperte in scrip- same chapter ; and here he confirms 

tura posita sunt, inveniuntur ilia omnia it again. 

quae continent fidem, moresque vivendi. h Scotus, Proleg. in Sent. q. 2. Scrip- 

And to this place Bellarm. lib. iv. de tura sufficienter continet doctrinam ne- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 43 

have not we reason then to account it, as it is, the foundation Sect. 15. 
of our faith ? And Stapleton himself, though an angry 
opposite, confesses, " That the scripture is, in some sort, the 
foundation of faith ; that is, in the nature of testimony, and 
in the matter or thing to be believed." And if the scripture 
be the foundation to which we are to go for witness, if there 
be doubt about the faith, and in which we are to find the 
thing that is to be believed as necessary in the faith ; we 
never did nor never will refuse any tradition that is universal 
and apostolic, for the better exposition of the scripture ; nor 
any definition of the church, in which she goes to the scrip- 
ture for what she teaches ; and thrusts nothing, as funda- 
mental in the faith, upon the world, but what the scripture 
fundamentally makes materiam credendorum, the substance 
of that which is so to be believed ; whether immediately and 
expressly in words, or more remotely, where a clear and full 
deduction draws it out. 

II. Against the beginning of this paragraph A. C. ex- A. C. p. 48. 
cepts. And first, he says, " It is true that the church of 
England grounded her positive articles upon scripture : that 
is, it is true, if themselves may be competent judges in their 
own cause. 11 But this, by the leave of A. C., is true, without 
making ourselves judges in our own cause. For " that all 
the positive articles of the present church of England are 
grounded upon scripture, 11 we are content to be judged by 
the joint and constant belief of the Fathers, which lived within 
the first four or five hundred years after Christ, when the 
church was at the best ; and by the councils held within 
those times ; and to submit to them in all those points of 
doctrine. Therefore we desire not to be judges in our own 
cause. And if any whom A. C. calls a novelist can truly 
say and maintain this, he will quickly prove himself no 
novelist. And for the negative articles ; they refute, where 
the thing affirmed by you is either not affirmed in scripture, 
or not directly to be concluded out of it. Upon this negative 

cessariam viatori. Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. i. * Scripturam fundamentum esse et 

A. 10. ad i. In doctrina Christ! et columnam fidei fatemur in suo genere, 

apostolorum, veritas fidei est suffi- i. e. in genere testimoniorum, et in 

cienter explicata. And he speaks there materia eredeiidarum. Relect. Cont. 4. 

of the written word. q. i. Ar. 3. in fine. 

44 ArclMshop Laud against 

Sect. 15. ground A. C. infers again, " That the baptism of infants is 
' ' p * 4 ' not expressly (at least, not evidently) affirmed in scripture, 
nor directly (at least, not demonstratively) concluded out of 
it." In which case, he professes, " he would gladly know 
what can be answered, to defend this doctrine to be a point 
of faith necessary for the salvation of infants. 11 And in con- 
clusion professes, " he cannot easily guess what answer can 
be made, unless we will acknowledge authority of church 
tradition necessary in this case." 

III. And truly, since A. C. is so desirous of an answer, I 
will give it freely. And first, in the general. I am no way 
satisfied with A. C. his addition, " not expressly ; at least, not 
evidently." What means he ? If he speak of the letter of 
the scripture, then, whatsoever is expressly is evidently in 
the scripture ; and so his addition is vain. If he speak of 
the meaning of the scripture, then his addition is cunning ; 
for many things are expressly in scripture, which yet, in their 
meaning, are not evidently there. And, whatever he mean, 
my words are, " That our negative articles refute that which 
is not affirmed in scripture," without any addition of expressly, 
or evidently. And he should have taken my words as I used 
them. I like nor change nor addition ; nor am I bound to 
either of A. C.'s making. And I am as little satisfied with 
his next addition " nor directly, at least, not demonstratively, 
concluded out of it." For are there not many things in 
good logic concluded directly, which yet are not concluded 
demonstratively? Surely there are. For to be directly or 
indirectly concluded, flows from the mood or form of the 
syllogism; to be demonstratively concluded, flows from the 
matter or nature of the propositions. If the propositions 
be prime and necessary truths, the syllogism is demonstrative 
and scientifical, because the propositions are such. If the 
propositions be probable only, though the syllogism be made 
in the clearest mood, yet is the conclusion no more. The 
inference or consequence, indeed, is clear and necessary ; but 
the consequent is but probable or topical, as the propositions 
were. Now my words were only for a direct conclusion, and 
no more : though, in this case, I might give A. C. his caution : 
for scripture here is the thing spoken of. And scripture 
being a principle, and every text of scripture confessedly a 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


principle among all Christians, whereof no man k desires any Sect. 15. 
further proof; I would fain know why that which is plainly 
and apparently, that is, by direct consequence, proved out of 
scripture, is not demonstratively or scientifically proved ? If, 
at least, he think there can be any demonstration in divinity : 
and if there can be none, why did he add " demonstratively T 
IV. Next, in particular ; I answer to the instance which 
A. C. makes concerning the baptism of infants, That it mayA.C. p. 49. 
be concluded directly (and let A. C. judge, whether not de- 
monstratively) out of scripture, both that infants ought to 
be baptized, and that baptism is necessary to their salvation. 
And first, that baptism is necessary to the salvation of in- 
fants (in the ordinary way of the church, without binding 
God to the use and means of that sacrament to which he 
hath bound us) l is express in St. John iii. 5 : Except a man 
be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the 
kingdom of God. So, no baptism, no entrance. Nor can 
infants creep in any other ordinary way. And this is the 
received opinion of all the ancient church of m Christ. And 

k Habitus enim fidei ita se habet in 
ordine ad theologiam, sicut se habet 
habitus intellectus ad scientias huma- 
nas. M. Canus., lib. ii. de Loc. c. 8. 

1 St. August, expressly of the baptism 
of infants. Lib. i. de Peceato, Mer. et 
Remiss, c. 30. et lib. ii. c. 27: et lib. 
iii. de Anima et ejus Or.'gine, c. 13. 
Nay, they of the Roman party which 
urge the baptism of infants as a matter 
of faith, and yet not to be concluded 
out of scripture, when they are not in 
eager pursuit of this controversy, but 
look upon truth with a more indifferent 
eye, confess as much (even the learnedest 
of them) as we ask. Advertendum 
autem Salvatorem dum dicit, Nisi quis 
renatus, &c. necessitatem imponere om- 
nibus, ac proinde parvulos debere re- 
nasci ex aqua et Spiritu. Jansen. Harm, 
in Evang. c. 20. So here is baptism 
necessary for infants, and that necessity 
imposed by our Saviour, and not by the 
church only. Haeretici nullo alio quam 
hoc scriptures testimonio probare pos- 
sunt, infantes esse baptizandos. Maid, 
in S. Job. iii. 5. So Maldonat con- 
fesses, that the heretics (we know whom 
he means) can prove the baptism of 
infants by no testimony of scripture 
but this: which speech implies, that 
by this testimony of scripture it is and 

can be proved ; and therefore not by 
church tradition only. And I would 
fain know why Bellarmine, lib. i. de 
Baptism, cap. 8. . 5, should bring 
three arguments out of scripture to 
prove the baptism of infants, " Habemus 
in scripturis tria argumenta, &c.," if 
baptism cannot be proved at all out of 
scripture, but only by the tradition of 
the church. And yet this is not Bel- 
larmine's way alone, but Suarez's, in 
Thorn, p. 3. q. 68. Disput. 25. sect, 
i. . 2. Ex scriptura possunt varia 
argumenta sumi ad confirmandum p- 
dobaptismum. Et similiter, &c. And 
Greg, de Valentia, L. de Baptism. Par- 
vulorum, c. 2. . i. And the pope 
himself, Innocent. III. lib. 3. Decretal. 
Tit. 42. cap. Majores. And they all 
jump with St. Ambr. lib. x. Epist. 84. 
ad Demetriadem Virginem, who ex- 
pressly affirms it, Paedobaptismum esse 
constitutionem Salvatoris; and proves 
it out of John iii. 5. 

m Infantes reos esse originalis pec- 
cati, et ideo baptizandos esse, antiquam 
fidei regulam vocat. S. Aug. Serm. 8. 
de Verb. Apost. c. 8. Et nemo vobis 
susurret doctrinas alienas, hoc ecclesia 
semper habuit, semper tenuit, hoc a 
majorum fide recepit, &c. S. Aug. 
Serm. 10. de Verb. Apost. c. 2. et 

46 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 15. secondly, That infants ought to be baptized, is, first, plain 
by evident and direct consequence out of scripture. For if 
there be no salvation for infants in the ordinary way of the 
church but by baptism, and this appear in scripture, as it 
doth, then, out of all doubt, the consequence is most evident 
out of that scripture, that infants are to be baptized, that 
their salvation may be certain. For they which cannot 
n help themselves must not be left only to extraordinary 
helps, of which we have no assurance, and for which we have 
no warrant at all in scripture, while we, in the mean time, 
neglect the ordinary way and means commanded by Christ. 
Secondly, it is very near an expression in scripture itself. 
For when St. Peter had ended that great sermon of his, 
Acts ii., he applies two comforts unto them, verse 38 : Amend 
your lives, and be baptized, and you shall receive the gift of the 
Holy Ghost. And then, verse 39, he infers, For the promise is 
made to you and to your children. The promise ; what pro- 
mise ? What ! Why the promise of sanctification by the 
Holy Ghost. By what means ? Why, by baptism. For it is 
expressly, Be baptized, and ye shall receive. And as expressly, 
This promise is made to you and to your children. And there- 
fore A. C. may find it, if he will, " That the baptism of infants 
may be directly concluded out of scripture." For some of 
his own party, P Ferus and <i Salmeron, could both find it 
there. And so (if it will do him any pleasure) he hath my 
answer, which, he saith, he would be glad to know. 

V. It is true, r Bellarmine presses a main place out of St. 
Augustine, and he urges it hard. St. Augustine^s s words 
are, " The custom of our mother the church in baptizing 
infants is by no means to be contemned or thought super- 
fluous, nor yet at all to be believed, unless it were an apo- 
stolical tradition." The place is truly cited, but seems a great 

S. Ambros. lib. x. Ep. 84. circa me- consentire, quum ad usum rationis per- 

dium. Et S. Chrysost. Horn, de Adam veniunt, ad implenda promissa in bap- 

et Eva. Hoc px-aedicat ecclesia catholica tismo, &c. Salm. Tract. 14, upon the 

ubique diffusa. place. 

n Egi causam eorum qui pro se loqui r Bellarm. de verbo Dei, lib. iv. c. 9. 

non possunt, &c. S. Aug. Serm. 8. .5. 

de Verb. Apost. c. 8. s Consuetudo matris ecclesiae in bap- 

o Acts ii. 38, 39. tizandis parvulis nequaquam spernenda 

P Nullum excipit, non Judamm, non est, nee omnino credenda, nisi apo- 

Gentilem, non adultum, non puerum, stolica esset traditio. S. August. Gen. 

&c. Ferus in Act. ii. 39. ad Lit. c. 23. 

q Et ad filios vestros : quare debent 

Fisher the Jesuit. 47 

deal stronger than indeed it is. For first, it is not denied Sect. 15. 
that this is an apostolical tradition, and therefore to be 
believed. But, secondly, not therefore only. Nor doth St. 
Augustine say so, nor doth Bellarmine press it that way. 
The truth is, it would have been somewhat difficult to find 
the collection out of scripture only for the baptism of infants, 
since they do not actually believe. And therefore St. Augus- 
tine is at nee credenda nisi, that this custom of the church 
had not been to be believed, had it not been an apostolical 
tradition. But the tradition being apostolical led on the 
church easily to see the necessary deduction out of scripture. 
And this is not the least use of tradition, to lead the church 
into the true meaning of those things which are found in 
scripture, though not obvious to every eye there. And that 
this is St. Augustine^s meaning is manifest by himself, who 
best knew it. For when he had said, l as he doth, that to 
baptize children is antiqua fidei regula, the ancient rule of 
faith, and the constant tenet of the church, yet he doubts not 
to collect and deduce it out of scripture also. For when 
Pelagius urged that infants needed not to be baptized 
because they had no original sin, St. Augustine relies not 
upon the tenet of the church only, but argues from the text 
thus : u " What need have infants of Christ, if they be not sick?" 
for the sound need not the physician, St. Matth. ix. And 
again, is not this said by Pelagius, ut non accedant ad Jesum, 
that infants may not come to their Saviour? Bed clamat 
Jesus, but Jesus cries out, Suffer little ones to come unto me*, 
St. Mark x. And all this is fully acknowledged by y Calvin* 
namely, " That all men acknowledge the baptism of infants 
to descend from apostolical tradition :" z and yet that " it 
doth not depend upon the bare and naked authority of the 
church." Which he speaks not in regard of tradition, but 

* Cur antiquam fidei regulam fran- x Mark x. 14. 

gere conaris? S. August. Senn. 8. de y Nullus est scriptor tarn vetustus. 

Verb. Apost. c. 8. Hoc ecclesia semper qui non ejus originem ad apostoloruin 

tenuit. Ibid. Serm. 10. c. 2. seculum pro certo referat. Calv. 4. Inst. 

u Quid necessarium habuit infans c. 16. . 8. 

Christum, si non aegrotat ? S. Matt. z Miserrimum asylum foret, si pro 

ix. 12. Quid est quod dicis, nisi ut defensione paedobaptismi ad nudam 

non accedant ad Jesum ? Sed tibi ecclesiae authoritatem fugere cogere- 

clamat Jesus, Sine parvulos venire ad mur. Calv. 4. Inst. c. 8. . 16. 
me. S. August, in the forecited places. 

48 ArMishop Laud against 

Sect. 15, 1 6. in relation to such proof as is to be made by necessary con- 
sequence out of scripture over and above tradition. 

VI. As for tradition, a I have said enough for that, and 
as much as A. C. where it is truly apostolical. And yet if 
any thing will please him, I will add this concerning this 
particular, the baptizing of infants ; that the church received 
this by b tradition from the apostles. By tradition. And 
what then ? May it not directly be concluded out of scrip- 
ture, because it was delivered to the church by way of tradi- 
tion ? I hope A. C. will never say so. For certainly in 
doctrinal things, nothing so likely to be a tradition apo- 
stolical as that which hath a c root and a foundation in scrip- 
ture. For apostles cannot write or deliver contrary, but 
subordinate and subservient things. 

Jp I asked how he knew scripture to be scripture, and 
in particular, Genesis, Exodus, &c. These are believed 
to be scripture, yet not proved out of any place of scrip- 
ture. The bishop said, That the books of scripture 
are principles to be supposed, and needed not to be 

Sect. 1 6. ^' I- I did never love too curious a search into that 
which might put a man into a wheel, and circle him so long 
between proving scripture by tradition and tradition by 
scripture, till the devil find a means to dispute him into 
infidelity, and make him believe neither. I hope this is no 
part of your meaning. Yet I doubt this d question, " How 
do you know scripture to be scripture T hath done more 
harm than you will be ever able to help by tradition. But 
I must follow that way which you draw me. And because 

a . 15. Num. i. A. C. p. 49, c Yea, and Bellarmine himself avers, 

b Orig. in Rom. vi. 6. torn. ii. p. 543. Omnes traditiones, &c. contineri in 

Pro hoc ecclesia ab apostolis tradi- scripturis in universali.. De Verb. Dei 

tionem suscepit, etiam parvulis baptis- non scripto, lib. iv. c. to. . Sic 

mum dare. Et S. August. Serm. 10. etiam. And St. Basil, Serm. de Fide 

de Verb. Apost. c. 2. Hoc ecclesia a approves only those agrapha, quae non 

majorum fide percepit. And it is to sunt alieria a pia secundum scripturam 

be observed, that neither of these Fa- sententia. 

thers (nor I believe any other) say that d Qui conantur fidem destruere sub 

the church received it a traditione sola, specie quaestionis difficilis, aut forte in- 

or a majorum fide sola ; as if tradition dissolubilis, &c. Orig. Quest. 35. in S. 

did exclude collection of it out of scrip- Matth. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 49 

it is so much insisted upon by you, and is in itself a e matter Sect. 16. 
of such consequence, I will sift it a little further. 

II. Many men labouring to settle this great principle in 
divinity, have used divers means to prove it. All have not 
gone the same way, nor all the right way. You cannot be 
right, that resolve faith of the scriptures, being the word of 
God, into only tradition. For only, and no other proof, are 
equal. To prove the scripture therefore (so called by way 
of excellence) to be the word of God, there are several offers 
at divers proofs. For first, some fly to the testimony and 
witness of the church and her tradition, which constantly 
believes and unanimously delivers it. Secondly, some to the 
light and the testimony which the scripture gives to itself ; 
with other internal proofs which are observed in it, and to 
be found in no other writing whatsoever. Thirdly, some to 
the testimony of the Holy Ghost, which clears up the light 
that is in scripture, and seals this faith to the souls of men, 
that it is God's word. Fourthly, all that have not im- 
brutished themselves, and sunk below their species and order 
of nature, give even natural reason leave to come in and 
make some proof, and give some approbation upon the weigh- 
ing and the consideration of other arguments. And this 
must be admitted, if it be but for pagans and infidels, who 
either consider not or value not any one of the other three : 
yet must some way or other be converted, or left without 
excuse*, Rom. i. 20, and that is done by this very evidence. 

III. For the first, the tradition of the church, which 
is your way : that taken and considered alone is so far from 
being the only, that it cannot be a sufficient proof to believe 
by divine faith that scripture is the word of God. For that 
which is a full and sufficient proof is able of itself to settle 
the soul of man concerning it. Now the tradition of the 
church is not able to do this. For it may be further asked, 
why we should believe the church's tradition ? And if it 
be answered, We may believe, because the church is in- 

e To know that scriptures are divine vere divinos. Bellarm. lib. iv. de Verb, 

and infallible in every part, is a foun- Dei non scripto, c. 4. . Quarto necesse. 

dation so necessary, as if it be doubt- Et etiam libros qui sunt in manibus 

fully questioned, all the faith built upon esse illos. Ibid. . Sexto oportet. 
scripture falls to the ground. A. C. p. 47. { Rom. i. 20. 
Necesse est nosse extare libros aliquos 

50 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. fallibly governed by the Holy Ghost ; it may yet be de- 
manded of you, how that may appear? And if this be 
demanded, either you must say you have it by special reve- 
lation, which is the private spirit you object to other men ; 
or else you must attempt to prove it by scriptures, as all of 
you do. And that very offer, to prove it out of scripture, 
is a sufficient acknowledgment that the scripture is a higher 
proof than the church's tradition, which (in your grounds) 
is, or may be, questionable till you come thither. Besides, 
this is an inviolable ground of reason, " h That the principles 
of any conclusion must be of more credit than the conclusion 
itself." Therefore, if the articles of faith, the Trinity, the 
resurrection, and the rest, be the conclusions, and the prin- 
ciples by which they are proved be only ecclesiastical tradi- 
tion, it must needs follow, that the tradition of the church 
is more infallible than the articles of the faith ; if the faith 
which we have of the articles should be finally resolved into 
the veracity of the church's testimony. But this 'your 
learned and wary men deny; and therefore I hope yourself 
dare not affirm. 

IV. Again ; if the voice of the church (saying " the books 
of scripture commonly received are the word of God"") be 
the formal object of faith, upon which alone absolutely I may 
resolve myself ; then every man not only may, but ought 
to resolve his faith into the voice or tradition of the church : 
for every man is bound to rest upon the proper and formal 
object of the faith. But nothing can be more evident than 
this, " That a man ought not to resolve his faith of this 
principle into the sole testimony of the church." Therefore 
neither is that testimony, or tradition alone, the formal 
object of faith. k The learned of your own part grant this: 

Esse aliquas veras traditiones de- possum, qui asserunt fidem nostram 

monstratur ex scripturis. Bellarm. lib. eo tanquam in ultimam credendi causam 

iv. de Verbo Dei non seripto, c. 5. and reducendam esse. Ut credamus eccle- 

A. C. p. 50. proves tradition out of siam esse veracein, &c. M. Canus, lib. 

2 Thes. ii. 15. ii. de Locis, c. 8. . Cui, et tertium. 

h Arist. I. Post. c. 2. T. xvi. per k Vox ecclesiae non est forraale ob- 

Pacium. Quocirca si Sia ra -rrpcara, jectum fidei. Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. 

propter prima scimus et credimus, ilia q. 3. A. 2 Licet in articulo fidei 

quoque scimus et credimus /j.a\\ov, Credo ecclesiam forte continuatur hoc 

magis, quia per ilia scimus et credimus totum, Credo ea qtise docet ecclesia : 

etiam posteriora. tamen non intelligitur riecessario, quod 

i Eorum errorem dissimulare non Credo docenti ecclesiaj tanquam testi 

Fisher the Jesuit. 51 

" Although in that article of the Creed, ' I believe the catholic Sect. 16. 
church,' peradventure all this be contained, I believe those 
things which the church teacheth ; yet this is not necessarily 
understood, that I believe the church teaching as an infallible 
witness." And if they did not confess this, it were no hard 
thing to prove. 

V. But here is the cunning of this device. All the 
authorities of Fathers, councils, nay, of scripture too, ] (though 
this be contrary to their own doctrine,) must be finally 
resolved into the authority of the present Roman church. 
And though they would seem to have us believe the Fathers 
and the church of old, yet they will not have us take their 
doctrine from their own writings, or the decrees of councils ; 
because (as they say) we cannot know by reading them 
what their meaning was, but from the infallible testimony 
of the present Roman church teaching by tradition. Now 
by this two things are evident. First, that they ascribe 
as great authority (if not greater) to a part of the catholic 
church as they do to the whole, which we believe in our 
Creed, and which is the society of all Christians. And 
this is full of absurdity in nature, in reason, in all things, 
that any m part should be of equal worth, power, credit, or 
authority with the whole. Secondly, that in their doctrine 
concerning the infallibility of their church, their proceeding 
is most unreasonable. For if you ask them why they 
believe their whole doctrine to be the sole true catholic 
faith 2 their answer is, " Because it is agreeable to the 
word of God, and the doctrine and tradition of the ancient 
church." If you ask them how they know that to be so 2 

infallibili. Ibid. Ubi etiam rejicit opi- et legibus ejus, vilior est Christi legi- 
nionem Durandi et Gabr. et Waldens. bus et scripturis sanctis necessario post- 
lib, ii. Doctr. Fidei Art. 2. c. 21. num. ponenda. Wald. lib. ii. Doct. Fidei Art. 
4. Testimonium ecclesiae catholicae 2. cap. 21. num. i. 
est objectum fidei Christians, et le- m Totum est majus sua parte. Etiamsi 
gislatio scripturae canonicae, subjicitur axioma sit apud Euclydem, non tamen 
tamen ipsi, sicut testis judici, et tes- ideo geometricum putandum est, quia 
timonium veritati. &c. Canus, Loc. geometres eo utitur. Utitur enim et 
lib. ii. cap. 8. Nee si ecclesia aditum tota logica. Ram. in Schol. Matth. And 
nobis praebet ad hujusmodi libros sa- Aristotle vindicates such propositions 
cros cognoscendos, protinus ibi acquies- rb Iv rois /xafl^yucwn KaXov^va. aua- 
cendum est, sed ultra oportet progredi, p.ara from being usurped by particular 
et solida Dei veritate niti, &c. sciences : airaai yap vir<ipx el > & c -> fl u ' a 
1 Omnis ergo ecclesiastica author!- conveniunt omni enti, et non alicui 
tas, cum sit ad testificandum de Christo generi separatim. Metaph. lib. iv. c. 3. 

torn. vii. 

E 2 

52 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. they will then produce testimonies of scripture, councils, 
and Fathers. But if you ask a third time, by what means 
they are assured that these testimonies do indeed make for 
them and their cause ? they will not then have recourse 
to text of scripture, or exposition of Fathers, or phrase and 
propriety of language, in which either of them were first 
written, or to the scope of the author, or the n causes of the 
thing uttered, or the conference with like places, or the 
antecedents Pand consequents of the same places, qor the 
exposition of the dark and doubtful places of scripture by 
the undoubted and manifest ; with divers other rules given 
for the true knowledge and understanding of scripture, which 
do frequently occur in r St. Augustine. No, none of these 
or the like helps : that, with them, were to admit a private 
spirit, ,or to make way for it. But their final answer is, 
" They know it to be so, because the present Roman church 
witnesseth it according to tradition." So arguing a primo 
ad ultimum, from first to last ; the present church of Rome 
and her followers believe her own doctrine and tradition to 
*. be true and catholic because she professes it to be such. 
And if this be not to prove idem per idem, the same by the 
same, I know not what is : which, though it be most absurd 
in all kind of learning, yet out of this I see not how it is 
possible to wind themselves, so long as the last resolution 
of their faith must rest (as they teach) upon the tradition 
of the present church only. 

VI. It seems therefore to me very necessary, s that we be 

n Intelligent^ dictorum ex causis est festiora quaeque praevaleant, et cle incer- 

assumenda dicendi, quia non sermoni tis certiora prascribant. Tert. L. de 

res, sed rei sermo est subjectus. S. Resur. c. 1 9. et 1 1 . S. August, lib. iii. 

Hilar. lib. iv. de Trin. Ex materia de Doct. Christ, c. 26. Moris est 

dicti dirigendus est sensus. Tert. 1. de scripturarum obscuris manifesta sub- 

Resur. Carnis, c. 37. nectere, et quod prius sub aenigmatibus 

o Videndo differentias similium ad dixerint, apertavoce proferre. S. Hieron. 

similia. Orig. Tract. 19. in S. Matt. in Esa. 19. princ. vid. . 26. num. 4. 

P Recolendum est unde venerit ista r S. August, lib. iii. de Doctr. Chris- 

sententia, et quse illam superiora pe- tiana. 

pererint, quibusque connexa dependeat. s And this is so necessary, that Bel- 
is. August. Ep. 29. Solet circumstantia larmine confesses, that if tradition (which 
scripturae illuminare sententiam. S.Aug. he relies upon) be not divine, he and 
lib. Ixxxiii. Qusest. q. 69. his can have no faith. Non habemus 

q Quae ambigue et obscure in non- fidem. Fides enim verbo Dei nititur. 

nullis scripturae sacra locis dicta viden- lib. iv. de Verbo Dei, c. 4. . At si 

tur, per ea quae alibi certa et indu- ita est. 

bitata habentur declarantur. S. Basil. And A. C. tells us, p. 47; To know 

in Regulis contractis, Reg. 267 Mani- that scripture is divine and infallible 

Fisher the Jesuit. 53 

able to prove the books of scripture to be the word of God by Sect. 1 6. 
some authority that is absolutely divine. For if they be 
warranted unto us by any authority less than divine, then 
all things contained in them (which have no greater assur- 
ance than the scripture in which they are read) are not 
objects of divine belief. And that once granted will enforce 
us to yield, that all the articles of Christian belief have no 
greater assurance than human or moral faith or credulity 
can afford. An authority then simply divine must make good 
the scripture's infallibility, at least in the last resolution of 
our faith in that point. This authority cannot be any 
testimony or voice of the * church alone. For the church 
consists of men subject to error ; and no one of them, 4- 
since the apostles' times, hath been assisted with so plen- 
tiful a measure of the blessed Spirit as to secure him 
from being deceived ; and all the parts being all liable to 
mistaking, and fallible, the whole cannot possibly be infal- 
lible in and of itself, and privileged from being deceived 
in some things or other. And even in those fundamental 
things in which the whole universal church neither doth 
nor can err, yet even there her authority is not divine, 
because she delivers those supernatural truths by promise 
of assistance, yet tied to means; and not by any special 
immediate revelation, which is necessarily required to the 
very least degree of divine authority. And therefore our 
"worthies do not only say, but prove, " That all the church's 
constitutions are of the nature of human law." x And some 
among you, not unworthy for their learning, prove it at large, 
That all the church's testimony, or voice, or sentence (call 
it what you will) is but suo modo, or aliquo modo, not simply, 
but in a manner divine. Yea, and A. C. himself after all A. C. p. 51. 

in every part, is a foundation so neces- tinus ibi acquiescendum est, sed ultra 
sary, as, if it be doubtfully questioned, oportet progredi, et solida Dei veritate 
all the faith built upon scripture falls niti. Qua ex re intelligitnr quid sibi 
to the ground. And he gives the same voluerit Augustinus, quum ait, Evan- 
reason for it p. 50. which Bellarmine gelio non crederem, nisi, &c. M. Canus, 
doth. lib. ii. de Locis, c. 8. fol. 34. b Non 
t Ecclesiam Spiritu afflatam esse, certe docet fundatam esse evangelii fidem in 
credo. Non ut veritatem authorita- ecclesiae authoritate, sed, &c. Ibid, 
temve libris canonicis tribuat, sed ut u Hooker, Eccles. Pol. lib. iii. . 9. 
doceat illos non alios esse canonicos. x Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. A. I 
Nee si aditum nobis praebet ad hujus- et 2. 
modi sacros libros cognoscendos, pro- 

54 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. his debate comes to that, and no further, " That the tradi- 
tion of the church is, at least in some sort, divine and 
infallible." Now that which is divine but in a sort or man- 
ner, be it the church's manner, is aliquo modo non divina, in 
a sort not divine. But this great principle of faith (the 
ground and proof of whatsoever else is of faith) cannot stand 
firm upon a proof that is and is not, in a manner and not 
in a manner, divine ; as it must, if we have no other anchor 
than the external tradition of the church to lodge it upon, 
and hold it steady in the midst of those waves which daily 
beat upon it. 

A. c. p. 49. VII. Now here A. C. confesses expressly, that to prove the 
books of scripture to be divine, we must be warranted by 

A. C. p. 50. that which is infallible. He confesses further, " that there 
can be no sufficient infallible proof of this but God's word, 
written or unwritten." And he gives his reason for it : 

A. c. p. 51." Because, if the proof be merely human and fallible, the 
science or faith which is built upon it can be no better." 
So then this is agreed on by me, (yet leaving other men to 
travel by their own way, so be they can come to make 
scripture thereby infallible,) that scripture must be known 
to be scripture by a sufficient, infallible, divine proof. And 
that such proof can be nothing but the word of God, is agreed 
on also by me. Yea, and agreed on, for me, it shall be like- 
wise, that God's word may be written and unwritten. For 
cardinal yBellarmine tells us truly, that it is not the writing 
or printing that makes scripture the word of God ; but it is 
the prime, unerring, essential truth, God himself, uttering 
and revealing it to his church, that makes it verlmi Dei, the 
word of God. And this word of God is uttered to men, 
either immediately by God himself, Father, Son, and Holy 
Ghost ; and so it was to the prophets and apostles ; or 
mediately, either by angels, to whom God had spoken first ; 
and so the law was given, z Gal. iii., and so also the message 
was delivered to the blessed Virgin, a Luke i. ; or by the pro- 

y Verbum Dei non est tale, nee liabet Dei, c. 2. . Ecclesiasticae traditiones. 
nllam authoritatem, quia scriptum est z Lex ordinata per angelos in maim 

in membranis, sed quia a Deo pro- mediatoris, Gal. iii. 19. 
fectnm est. Bellarm. lib. iv. de Verb. a Luke i. 30. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 55 

phets b and apostles ; and so the scriptures were delivered Sect. 16. 
to the church. But their being written gave them no 
authority at all in regard of themselves. Written or un- 
written, the word was the same. But it was written that 
it might be the better c preserved, and continued with the 
more integrity to the use of the church, and the more faith- 
fully in our d memories. And you have been often enough told, 
(were truth, and not the maintaining of a party, the thing 
you seek for,) that if you will shew us any such unwritten 
word of God delivered by his prophets and apostles, we will 
acknowledge it to be divine and infallible. So, written or un- 
written, that shall not stumble us. But then A. C. must 
not tell us, at least not think we shall swallow it into our 
belief, that every thing which he says is the unwritten word 
of God is so indeed. 

VIII. I know Bellarmine hath written a whole book 
?De verbo Dei non scripto, of the word of God not written, 
in which he handles the controversy concerning traditions. 
And the cunning is, to make his weaker readers believe, that 
all that which he and his are pleased to call traditions, are 
by and by no less to be received and honoured than the 
unwritten word of God ought to be. Whereas it is a thing 
of easy knowledge, that the unwritten word of God and 
tradition are not convertible terms, that is, are not all one. 
For there are many unwritten words of God which were 
never delivered over to the church, for aught appears ; and 
there are many traditions (affirmed, at least, to be such by 
the church of Rome) which were never warranted by any 
unwritten word of God. 

b The Holy Ghost, &c. which spake scriptis, quam non credere verbis. 
by the prophets, in Symb. Nicen. d Labilis est memoria, et ideo in- 

c Nam pseudoprophetae, etiam viven- digemus scriptura : dicendum quod 

tibns adhuc apostolis, multas fingebant verum est, sed hoc non habet, nisi ex 

corruptelas sub hoc praetextu et titulo, inundantia peccatorum. Henr. aGand. 

quasi ab apostolis viva voce essent Sum. p. J. Art. 8. q. 4. fine. Christus 

tradita? : et propter hanc ipsam can- ipse de pectore morituro testamentum 

sam apostoli doctriuam suam crepe- transfert in tabulas diu duraturas. 

runt literis comprehendere, et ecclesiis Optatus, lib. v. Christus ipse non trans- 

commeudare. Chem. Exam. Concil. tulit, sed ex Optati sententia, ejus in- 

Trid. de Traditionibus sub octavo ge- spiratione, si non jussu, apostoli trans- 

nere traditis. And so also Jans. Com- tulerunt. 

ment. in Joh. v. 47. Sicut enim e Bellarm. lib. iv. de Verbo Dei nou 

firmius est quod mandatur literis, ita scripto. 
est culpabilius et majus non credere 


56 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. IX. First, That there are many unwritten words of God 
which were never delivered over to the church, is manifest. 
For when or where were the words which Christ spake to 
his apostles during the f forty days of his conversing with 
them after his resurrection first delivered over to the church ? 
Or what were the unwritten words he then spake ? If 
neither he nor his apostles or evangelists have delivered 
them to the church, the church ought not to deliver them 
to her children. Or if she do s trader 'e non traditum, make a 
tradition of that which was not delivered to her, and by 
some of them, then she is unfaithful to God, and doth not 
servare depositum, faithfully keep that which is committed 
to her trust; h l Tim. vi. And her sons which come to 
know it are not bound to obey her tradition against the 
j word of their Father. For wheresoever Christ holds his 
peace, or that his words are not registered, I am of k St. 
^ Augustine's opinion, no man may dare, without rashness, say 
they were these or these. So there were many unwritten 
words of God which were never delivered over to the church, 
and therefore never made tradition. And there are many 
traditions which cannot be said to be the unwritten word 
of God. For I believe a learned Romanist that will weigh 
before he speaks will not easily say, that to anoint, or use 
spittle in baptism, or to use three dippings in the use of that 
sacrament, or divers other like traditions, had their rise from 
any word of God unwritten. Or if he be so hardy as to 
say so, it is gratis dictum, and he will have enough to do 
to prove it. So there may be an unwritten word of God 
which is no tradition. And there are many traditions which 
are no unwritten word of God. Therefore tradition must be 
taken two ways : either as it is the church's act deliver- 
ing, or the thing thereby delivered; and then it is human 

f Act. i. 3. Henr. a Gand. Sum. p. i. A. 10. q. i. 

g Annunciare aliquid Christianis ca- And Bellarmine himself, that he might 

tholicis, praeter id quod acceperunt, the more safely defend himself in the 

nunquam licuit, nusquam licet, nun- cause of traditions, says, (but how 

quam licebit. Vincent. Lirin. c. 14. Et truly, let other men judge,) Nullam 

praecipit nihil aliud innovari, nisi quod traditionem admittimus contra scrip- 

traditum est. S. Cyprian, ad Pompeium turam, lib. iv. de Verbo Dei, cap. 3. . 

cont. epist. Stephan., princ. Deinde commune. 

h i Tim. vi. 20. and 2 Tim. i. 14. k S. August, torn. xvi. in S. Joh. 

i Si ipsa (ecclesia) contraria scripturae in ilia verba, Multa habeo dicere, sed 

-diceret, (fidelis) ipsi non crederet, &c. non potestis portare modo. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 57 

authority, or from it, and unable infallibly to warrant divine Sect. 16. 
faith, or to be the object of it : or else as it is the unwritten 
word of God ; and then, wherever it can be made to appear 
so, it is of divine and infallible authority, no question. But 
then I would have A. 0. consider where he is in this parti- 
cular: he tells us, "We must know infallibly that the books A. C. p. 49. 
of holy scripture are divine, 11 and that " this must be done by 
unwritten tradition, but so as that this tradition is the word 
of God unwritten." Now let him but prove that this or any 
tradition which the church of Rome stands upon is the word 
of God, though unwritten, and the business is ended. But A. C. p. 50. 
A. C. must not think that because the tradition of the church 
tells me these books are verbwn Dei, God's word, and that I 
do both honour and believe this tradition, that therefore this 
tradition itself is God's word too, and so absolutely sufficient 
and infallible to work this belief in me. Therefore, for aught 
A. C. hath yet added, we must on with our inquiry after this 
great business and most necessary truth. 

X. 2. For the second way of proving that scripture should 
be fully and sufficiently known, as by divine and infallible 
testimony, lumine proprio, by the resplendency of that light 
which it hath in itself only, and by the witness that it can so 
give to itself, I could never yet see cause to allow. ] For as 
there is no place in scripture that tells us such books con- 
taining such and such particulars are the canon, and infallible 
will and word of God ; so if there were any such place, that 
were no sufficient proof: for a man may justly ask another 
book to bear witness of that, and again of that another ; and 
wherever it were written in scripture, that must be a part of 
the whole. And no created thing can alone give witness to 
itself and make it evident, nor one part testify for another, 
and satisfy where reason will but offer to contest ; except 
those principles only of natural knowledge which appear ma- 
nifest by intuitive light of understanding, without any dis- 
course ; and yet they also to the weaker sort require induction 
preceding. Now this inbred light of scripture is a thing 
coincident with scripture itself ; and so the principles and the 
conclusion in this kind of proof should be entirely the same, 

1 Hooker, Eccles. Pol. b. ii. . 4. 

58 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. which cannot be. Besides, if this inward light were so clear, 
how could there have been any variety among the ancient 

believers touching the authority of m St. James' and St. Jude^s 

Epistles and the "Apocalypse, with other books which were not 
received for divers years after the rest of the New Testament ? 
for certainly the light which is in the scripture was the same 
then which now it is. And how could the Gospel of St. Bar- 
tholomew, of St. Thomas, and other counterfeit pieces, obtain 
so much credit with some as to be received into the canon, if 
the evidence of this light were either universal or infallible of 
and by itself? And this though I cannot approve, yet me- 
thinks you may, and upon probable grounds at least : for I 
hope no Romanist will deny but that there is as much light 
in scripture to manifest and make ostention of itself to be 
infallibly the written word of God, as there is in any tradition 
of the church that it is divine, and infallibly the unwritten 
word of God. And the scriptures saying from the mouths of 
the prophets, vThus saith the Lord, and from the mouths of 
the apostles, that ^the Holy Ghost spake by them, are at least 
as able and as fit to bear witness to their own verity as the 
church is to bear witness to her own traditions by bare 
saying they come from the apostles: and yourselves would 
never go to the scripture to prove that there are r traditions, 
as you do, if you did not think the scripture as easy to be 
discovered by inbred light in itself as traditions by their 
light. And if this be so, then it is as probable at the least 
(which some of ours affirm) that scripture may be known to 
be the word of God by the light and lustre which it hath in 
itself, as it is (which you s affirm) that a tradition may be 
known to be such by the light which it hath in itself; which 
is an excellent proposition to make sport withal, were this an 
argument to be handled merrily, 

XL 3. For the third opinion and way of proving; either 
some think that there is no sufficient warrant for this, unless 

m Euseb. lib. ii. c. 27. fine, edit. Basil, by its own light shews itself to be infal- 

1549. libly assisted," &c. p. 52. 

" Euseb. lib. iii. c. 25. P Isa. xliv. et passim. 

o Except A. C., whose boldness herein q Acts xxviii. 25. 
I cannot but pity: for he denies this r 2 Thess. ii. 15. Jude, ver. 3. 
light to the scripture, and gives it to s In your articles delivered to D. W. 

tradition. His words are, " Tradition to be answered ; and A. C. p. 52. 
of the church is of a company, which 

Fisher the Jesuit. 59 

they fetch it from the testimony of the Holy Ghost, and so Sect. 16. 
look in vain after special revelations, and make themselves by 
this very conceit obnoxious and easy to be led by all the 
whisperings of a seducing private spirit, or else you would 
fain have them think so : for your side, both upon this and 
other occasions, do often challenge that we resolve all our 
faith into the dictates of a * private spirit; from which we 
shall ever prove ourselves as free if not freer than you. To 
the question in hand then : suppose it agreed upon that there 
must be a u divine faith, cui subesse non potest falsum, under 
which can rest no possible error, that the books of scripture 
are the written word of God ; if they which go to the testi- 
mony of the Holy Ghost for proof of this do mean by faith 
objection fidm, the object of faith that is to be believed, then, 
no question, they are out of the ordinary way ; for God 
never sent us by any word or warrant of his to look for any 
such special and private testimony to prove which that book 
is that we must believe : but if by faith they mean the habit 
or act of divine infused faith, by which virtue they do believe 
the credible object and thing to be believed, then their speech 
is true and confessed by all divines of all sorts : for faith is 
the x gift of God, of God alone, and an 7 infused habit, in 
respect whereof the soul is merely recipient ; and therefore 
the sole infuser, the Holy Ghost, must not be excluded from 
that work which none can do but he : for the Holy Ghost, as 
2 he first dictated the scripture to the apostles, " a so did he 

t A Jesuit, under the name of T. S., manis. Ad quern modum et Saraceni 

set out a book, anno 1630, which he suis praeceptoribus, et Judaei suis rabi- 

called, The Trial of the Protestant pri- nis, et gentes suis philosophis, et omnes 

vate Spirit. suis majoribus inhaerent : non sic Chris- 

i Ut testimoiiia scripturse certam et tiani, sed per interius lumen infusum a 

indubitatam fidem prsestent, riecessa- Spiritu Sancto, quo nrmissime et cer- 

riam videtur ostendere, quod ipsae divi- tissime moventur ad credendum, &c. 

nae scripturae sint Dei Spiritu inspiratae. Canus, Locor. lib. ii. c. 8. . Jam si 

Orig. 4. Trepi apxwv. hsec. 

x i Cor. xii. 3, 4. Datur nobis a Deo, z " The Holy Ghost spake by the 

&c. S. August, in Psal. Ixxxvii. prophets," &c. Symb. Nicen. et i Pet. 

y Quia homo assentiendo eis quae ii. 21. Quis modus est, quo doces ani- 

sunt fidei elevatur supra natui-am suam, mas ea quae futura sunt ? Docuisti enim 

oportet, quod hoc insit ei ex supernatu- prophetas tuos. S. August. Confess, 

rali principio interius moveute, quod est lib. xi. c. 19. 

Deus. Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. 6. A. i. c. And a Nee enim ecclesire testimonium aut 

your own divines agree in this, that judicium praedicamus, Dei Spiritura, vel 

fides acquisita is not sufficient for any ab ecclesia docente, vel a nobis audien- 

article, but there must be fides infu&a tibus, excludimus, sed utrobique diserte 

before there can be divine certainty, includimus, &c. Stapl. Trip. cont. Whi- 

Fides acquisita innititur conjecturis hu- tak. c. 3. 

60 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. not leave the church in general, nor the true members of it 
in particular, without grace to believe what himself had 
revealed and made credible :" so that faith, as it is taken for 
the virtue of faith, whether it be of this or any other article, 
" b though it receive a kind of preparation or occasion of 
beginning from the testimony of the church, as it proposeth 
and induceth to the faith, yet it ends in God, revealing within 
and teaching within that which the church preached without :" 
for till the Spirit of God move the heart of man, he cannot 
believe, be the object never so credible. The speech is true 
then, but quite c out of the state of this question, which in- 
quires only after a sufficient means to make this object credi- 
ble and fit to be believed against all impeachment of folly and 
temerity in belief, whether men do actually believe it or not ; 
for which no man may expect inward private revelation with- 
out the external means of the church, unless perhaps the 
d case of necessity be excepted, when a man lives in such a 
time and place as excludes him from all ordinary means ; in 
which I dare not offer to shut up God from the souls of men, 
nor to tie him to those ordinary ways and means to which 
yet in great wisdom and providence he hath tied and bound 
all mankind. 

XII. Private revelation then hath nothing ordinarily to 
do to make the object credible in this, that scripture is the 
word of God, or in any other article. For the question is 
of such outward and evident means as other men may take 
notice of as well as ourselves ; by which, if there arise any 
doubting or infirmity in the faith, others may strengthen us, 
or we afford means to support them; whereas the " e testi- 

b Fides quae cnepit ab ecclesiae testi- solo dono gratuito infusus est : nihil ad 

monio, quatenus proponit et inducit ad quaestionem : nisi, quoad hoc quod per 

fidem, desinit in Deo intus revelante, et scripturte inspectionem, &c. Henr. a 

intus docente quod foris ecclesia praedi- Gand. Sum. A. 10. q. i. lit. D. 

cavit. Stapl. Relect. Coiit. 4. q. 3. A. 2 d Stapleton, Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. A. 2, 

"When grave and learned men do some- doth not only affirm it, but proves it 

times hold that of this principle there is too, a paritate rationis, in case of iieces- 

no proof but by the testimony of the sity, where there is no contempt of the 

Spirit, &c. I think it is not their mean- external means. 

ing to exclude all outward proofs, &c. e Quid cum singulis agitur, Deus scit 

but rather this, That all other means qui agit, et ipsi curn quibus agitur, 

are uneffectual of themselves to work sciunt. Quid autem agatur cum genere 

faith without the special grace of God," humann, per historian! commendari vo- 

&c. Hooker, Eccles. Pol. b. iii. . 8. luit, et per prophetiam. S. August, de 

c De habitu fidei quoad fieri ejus et vera Relig. c. 25. 
generationem cum a Deo immediate 

Fisher the Jesuit. 61 

mony of the Spirit and all private revelation is within, nor Sect. 1 6. 
felt nor seen of any but of him that hath it ;" so that hence 
can be drawn no proof to others. And miracles are not suffi- 
cient alone to prove it, unless both they and the revelation 
too agree with the rule of scripture, which is now an unalter- 
able rule by f man or angel. To all this A. C. says nothing, A. c. p. 52. 
save that " I seem not to admit of an infallible impulsion of 
a private spirit ex parte subject^ without any infallible reason, 
and that sufficiently applied ex parte objecti ; which if I did 
admit would open a gap to all enthusiasms and dreams of 
fanatical men." Now for this yet I thank him ; for I do not 
only " seem not to admit," but I do most clearly reject this 
phrensy in the words going before. 

XIII. 4. The last way, which gives s reason leave to come 
in and prove what it can, may not justly be denied by any 
reasonable man ; for though reason without grace cannot see 
the way to heaven, nor believe this book in which God hath 
written the way, yet grace is never placed but in a reasonable 
creature, and proves, by the very seat which it hath taken up, 
that the end it hath is to be spiritual eye-water to make 
reason see what by h nature only it cannot, but never to 
blemish reason in that which it can comprehend. Now the 
use of reason is very general ; and man (do what he can) is 
still apt to search and seek for a reason why he will believe, 
though after he once believes, his faith grows j stronger than 
either his reason or his knowledge ; and great reason for this, 

f Gal. i. 8. lumine divinae scientiae, quae decipi non 

g Utitur tamen sacra doctrina ratione potest. Thorn, p. I. q. i, A. 5. c. Ut 

humana, non quidem ad probandum ipsa fide valentiores facti, quod credirmis 

fidem ipsam, sed ad manifestandum all- intelligere merearaur. S. August, cont. 

qua alia, quae traduntur in hac doc- Ep. Manichaei, dictam Fundamentum, 

trina. Thorn, p. i. q. r. A. 8. ad 2 0.14 Hoc autem ita intelligendum est, 

Passibus rationis novus homo tendit in ut scieutia certior sit certitudine eviden- 

Deum. S. August, de vera Relig. c. 26. tia? ; fides vero certior firmitate adhae- 

( Passibus, verum est, sed nee aequis, nee sionis. Majus lumen in scientia, majus 

solis.) Nam invisibilia Dei altiori modo robur in fide. Et hoc, quia in fide, et 

quantum ad plura percipit fides, quam ad fidem actus imperatus voluntatis con - 

ratio naturalis ex creaturis in Deum currit. Credere enim est actus intel- 

procedens. Thorn. 2. 232. q. 2. A. 3. lectus ; vero assentientis productus ex 

ad 3. voluntatis imperio. Biel. in 3. Sent. 

h Animalis homo non pereipit. i Cor. d. 23. q. 2. A. i Unde Thorn., Intel- 

ii. 14. lectus credentis determinatur ad urium, 

i Quia scientiae certitudinem habent non per rationem, sed per voluntatem ; 

ex naturali lumine rationis humanae, et ideo assensus hie accipitur pro actu 

quse potest errare: theologia autem (quae intellectus, secundum quod a voluntate 

docet et objectum et notitiam fidei, sicut determinatur ad uuum. 2. 2ae. q. 2. 

et fidem ipsam) certitudinem habet ex A. i. ad 3. 

62 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. because it goes higher, and so upon a safer principle than 
either of the other can in this life. 

XIV. In this particular the books called the scripture 
are commonly and constantly reputed to be the word of God, 
and so, infallible verity to the least point of them. Doth any 
man doubt this? the world cannot keep him from going to 
weigh it at the balance of reason, whether it be the word of 
God or not. To the same weights he brings the tradition of 
the church, the inward motives in scripture itself, all testimo- 
nies within which seem to bear witness to it. And in all this 
there is no harm : the danger is when a man will use no other 
scale but reason, or prefer reason before any other scale : for 
the word of God and the book containing it refuse not to 
be weighed by k reason; but the scale is not large enough to 
contain, nor the weights to measure out the true virtue and 
full force of either. Reason then can give no supernatural 
ground into which a man may resolve his faith that scripture 
is the word of God infallibly ; yet reason can go so high as it 
can prove that Christian religion which rests upon the au- 
thority of this book stands upon surer grounds of nature, 
reason, common equity, and justice, than any thing in the 
world which any infidel or mere naturalist hath done, doth, 
or can adhere unto against it, in that which he makes, 
accounts, or assumes as religion to himself. 

XV. The ancient Fathers relied upon the scriptures, no 
Christians more ; and having to do with philosophers, (men 
very well seen in all the subtilties which natural reason could 
teach or learn,) they were often put to it, and did as often 
make it good, that they had sufficient warrant to rely so 
much as they did upon scripture. In all which disputes, 
because they were to deal with infidels, they did labour to 
make good the authority of the book of God by such argu- 
ments as unbelievers themselves could not but think reason- 
able, if they weighed them with indifferency. For though I 
set the mysteries of faith above reason, which is their proper 
place, yet I would have no man think they contradict reason 
or the principles thereof: no sure; for reason by her own 

fc Si vobis, rationi, et veritati consen- nis, &c. Tertull. lib. de Carne Christi, 

tanea videntur, in pretio habete, &c. c. 18. Rationabile est credere Detim 

Justin. Mart, de Mysteriis Religionis, esse autorem scripturae. Henr. a Gand. 

Apol. 2. Igitur, si fuit dispositio ratio- Sum. torn. i. Art. 9. q. 3. 

ake . 

am- \^ YllA* fytf 
, or 

Fisher the Jesuit. 03 

light can discover how firmly the principles of religion are Sect. 1 6. 
true, but all the light she hath will never be able to find them 
false. Nor may any man think that the principles of religion, 
even this, That the scriptures are the word of God, are so 
indifferent to a natural eye, that it may with as just cause 
lean to one part of the contradiction as to the other; for 
though this truth, That scripture is the word of God, is not 
so demonstratively evident a priori as to enforce assent, yet 
it is strengthened so abundantly with probable arguments, 
both from the light of nature itself and human testimony, 
that he must be very wilful and self- conceited that shall dare 
to suspect it. 

XVI. Nay, yet farther, ul lt is not altogether impossible 
to prove it, even by reason, a truth infallible, or else to make 
them deny some apparent principle of their own." For exam 
pie ; it is an apparent principle, and with them, That God 
the absolute, prime Agent, cannot be forced out of any pos- 
session ; for if he could be forced by another greater, he were 
neither prince, nor absolute, nor m God, in their own theology. 
Now they must grant that that God and Christ which the 
scripture teaches and we believe is the only true God, and 
no other with him, and so deny the deity which they wor- 
shipped, or else deny their own principle about the Deity, 
That God cannot be commanded and forced out of possession. 
For ""their gods, Saturn, and Serapis, and Jupiter himself, 
have been adjured by the name of the true and only God, and 
have been forced out of the bodies they possessed, and con- 
fessed themselves to be foul and seducing devils : and their 
confession was to be supposed true in point of reason ; for 
they that were adored as gods would never belie themselves 
into devils to their own reproach, especially in the presence 
of them that worshipped them, were they not forced." This 
many of the unbelievers saw; therefore they could not (in 

I Hooker, Eccles. Pol. b. iii. . 8 __ ter, et quicquid daemonum colitis, victi 

Si Plato ipse viveret, et me interro- dolore quod sum, eloquuntur. Nee uti- 

gantem iion aspernaretur, &c. S. Au- que in turpitudinem sui noimullis prae- 

gust. de vera Ilelig. c. 3. Videamus sertim vestrorum assistentibus, menti- 

quatenus ratio potest progredi a visibi- untur. Ipsis testibus esse eos daemones 

libus ad invisibilia, &c. Ibid. c. 29. de se verum confitentibus credite. Ad- 

m Si vim spectes, Deus valentissimus jurati enim per Deum verum, et solum 

est. Arist. de Mundo, c. 7 __ Domini et inviti, &c. Arnob. contra Gent. 8, or 

moderatores omnium. Cic. de Leg. 2. Minutius Felix .as is now thought. 

i. JL J 1 1 II tl U O A' C11JV *Cl>0 13 lAVW lUlSUglAV* 

n Ipse Saturnus, et Serapis, et Jupi- 

64 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. very force of reason) but they must either deny their god or 
deny their principle in nature. Their long custom would not 
forsake their god, and their reason could not forget their 
principle. If reason therefore might judge among them, they 
could not worship any thing that was under command : and 
if it be reasonable to do and believe this, then why not rea- 
sonable also to believe that scripture is his word, given to 
teach himself and Christ, since there they find Christ doing 
that, and P giving power to do it after, which themselves saw 
executed upon their devil-gods ? 

XVII. Besides, whereas all other written laws have scarce 
had the honour to be duly observed or constantly allowed 
worthy approbation in the particular places where they have 
been established for laws, this law of Christ, and this canon 
of scripture, the container of it, is or hath been received in 
almost nail nations under heaven: and wheresoever it hath 
been received, it hath been both approved for unchangeable 
good and believed for infallible verity. This persuasion could 
not have been wrought in men of all sorts but by working 
upon their reason, unless we shall think all the world unrea- 
sonable that received it : and certainly God did not give this 
admirable faculty of reasoning to the soul of man for any 
cause more prime than this, to discover or to judge and allow 
(within the sphere of its own activity, and not presuming 
farther) of the way to himself, when and howsoever it should 
be discovered. 

XVIII. One great thing that troubled rational men was 
that which stumbled the Manichee, (an heresy it was but 
more than half pagan,) namely, " That somewhat must be 
believed before much could be known." Wise men use not to 
believe but what they know ; and the Manichee r scorned the 
orthodox Christian as light of belief, promising to lead no 
disciple after him but upon evident knowledge. This stum- 

o Matt. xii. 22. authoritate subjecit. S.August, de Civ. 

P Matt. xvi. 17. Dei, xi. i. At in omni orbe terrarum, 

Q Si libri quoquo modo se habent in omni Grsecia, et universis nationibus, 

sancti tamen divinarum rerum pleni innumeri sunt, et immensi, qui relictis 

prope totius generis humani confessione patriis legibus, &c. ad observantiam 

diffamantur, &c. S. August, de Util. Mosis et Christi, &c. Origen. irfpl ap~ 

Cred. c. 7. Scriptura summa disposi- X v -> lv - r * 

tione providentiae super omnes omnium r Irridere in catholicae fidei discipline, 

gentium liters, omnia sibi genera inge- quod juberentur homines credere, non 

niorum humanorum diviria excellens autem, &c. S. August. Retract, i. 14- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 65 

bles many ; but yet the principle, That somewhat must be Sect. 1 6. 
believed before much can be known, stands firm in reason 
still : for if in all sciences there be some principles which can- 
not be proved ; if reason be able to see this and confess it ; 
if almost all artists have granted it ; if in the mathematics, 
where are the exactest demonstrations, there be qucedam 
postulate some things to be first demanded and granted be- 
fore the demonstration can proceed; who can justly deny 
that to divinity, a science of the highest object, God himself, 
which he easily and reasonably grants to inferior sciences, 
which are more within his reach ? And as all sciences suppose 
some principles without proving, so have they almost all some 
text, some authority upon which they rely in some measure : 
and it is reason they should ; for though these sciences make 
not their texts infallible, as divinity doth, yet full consent, 
and prudent examination, and long continuance, have won 
reputation to them and settled reputation upon them very 
deservedly. And were these texts more void of truth than 
they are, yet it were fit and reasonable to uphold their credit, 
that novices and young beginners in a science, which are not 
able to work strongly upon reason, nor reason upon them, 
may have authority to believe till they can learn to conclude 
from principles, and so to know. Is this also reasonable in 
other sciences, and shall it not be so in theology, to have a 
text, a scripture, a rule, which novices may be taught first to 
believe, that so they may after come to the knowledge of 
those things which out of this rich principle and s treasure are 
deducible? I yet see not how right reason can deny these 
grounds : and if it cannot, then a mere natural man may be 
thus far convinced that the text of God is a very credible 

XIX. Well, these are the four ways by most of which 
men offer to prove the scripture to be the word of God, as by 
a divine and infallible warrant. And, it seems, no one of 
these doth it alone. The tradition of the present church is 

s And therefore St. Augustine, de taxat ; no question but to make them 

Doct. Christ, ii. 8, would have men ready against they understood it; and 

make themselves perfect in reading the as schoolmasters make their scholars 

letter of the scripture even before they con their grammar rules by heart, that 

understood it : Eas riotas habeat, etsi they may be ready for their use when 

nondum intellectu, tamen lectione dun- they better understand them. 

66 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. too weak, because that is not absolutely divine : the light 
which is in scripture itself is not bright enough, it cannot 
bear sufficient witness to itself: the testimony of the Holy 
Ghost, that is most infallible, but ordinarily it is not so much 
as considerable in this question, which is not how or by what 
means we believe, but how the scripture may be proposed as 
a credible object fit for belief: and for reason, no man expects 
that that should prove it ; it doth service enough, if it enable 
us to disprove that which misguided men conceive against it. 
If none of these then be an absolute and sufficient means to 
prove it, either we must find out another, or see what can be 
more wrought out of these. And to all this again A. C. 
says nothing. 

XX. For the tradition of the church then, certain it is 
we must distinguish the church before we can judge right of 
the validity of the tradition : for if the speech be of the prime 
Christian church, the apostles, disciples, and such as had 
immediate revelation from heaven, no question but the voice 
and tradition of this church is divine, not aliquo modo, in a 
sort, but simply ; and the word of God from them is of like 
validity written or delivered. And against this tradition (of 
which kind this, That the books of scripture are the word of 
God, is the most general and uniform) the church of England 
never excepted. And when l St. Augustine said, " I would 
not believe the gospel unless the authority of the catholic 
church moved me," (which place you urged at the conference, 
though you are now content to slide by it,) some of your own 
will not endure should be understood save u of the church in 
the time of the apostles only, and x some of the church in 
general, not excluding afterages ; but sure to include Christ 
and his apostles : and the certainty is there, abundance of 
certainty in itself; but how far that is evident to us shall 
after appear. 

XXI. But this will not serve your turn. The tradition 
of the present church must be as infallible as that of the 

t Cont. Epis. Fund. lib. i. c. 5. Ego p. i. lib. i. c. 4. 

vero non crederem evangelic, nisi me ca- x Biel. lect. 22. in C. Missse. A tem- 

tholicae ecclesiae commoveret authoritas. pore Christi et apostolorum, &c. And 

u Intelligitur solum de ecclesia qnae so doth St. Augustine take Eccles. con- 

fnit tempore apostolorum. Ocham. Dial, tra Fund, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 67 

primitive : but the contrary to this is proved y before, because Sect. 16. 
this voice of the present church is not simply divine. To 
what end then serves any tradition of the present church \ 
To what ? why, to a very good end. For, first, it serves by 
a full consent to work upon the minds of unbelievers, to move 
them to read and to consider the scripture, which (they hear 
by so many wise, learned, and devout men) is of no meaner 
esteem than the word of God. And, secondly, it serves 
among novices, weaklings, and doubters in the faith, to in- 
struct and confirm them, till they may acquaint themselves 
with and understand the scripture, which the church delivers 
as the word of God. And thus again some of your own 
understand the forecited place of St. Augustine, " I would 
not believe the gospel" &c.; z for he speaks it either of novices 
or doubters in the faith, or else of such as were in part infi- 
dels. You at the conference (though you omit it here) would 
needs have it that St. Augustine spake even of the a faithful, 
which I cannot yet think; for he speaks to the Manichees, 
and they had a great part of the infidel in them. And the 
words immediately before these are, " If thou shouldest find 
one, qui evangelio nondwn credit, which did not yet believe the 
gospel, what wouldest thou do to make him believe?" ^Ego 
vero non, " Truly I would not" &c. So to these two ends it 
serves, and there need be no question between us. But then, 
every thing that is the first inducer to believe is not by and 
by either the principal motive or the chief and last object of 
belief upon which a man may rest his faith ; unless we shall 
be of c Jacobus Almain^s opinion, that we are per prius et 

y Sect. 1 6. num. VI. he speaks of himself when he did not 

z Sive infideles, sive in fide novitii. believe. 

Canus, Loc. lib. ii. c. 8. Neganti, aut c Certum est quod tenemur credere 

omnino nescienti scripturam. Stapl. Re- omnibus contends in sacro canone, quia 

lect. Cont. 4. q. i. A. 3. ecclesia credit ex ea ratione solum. Ergo 

a Quid si fateamur fideles etiam per prius et magis tenemur credere ec- 

ecclesiae authoritate commoveri, ut scrip- clesiae quam evangelio. Almain. in 3. 

turas recipiant ? non tamen inde sequi- Dist. 24. Conclus. 6. dub. 6. And, to 

tur eos hoc modo penitus persuaderi, make a show of proof for this, he falsi- 

aut nulla alia fortioreque ratione induci. fies St. Augustine most notoriously, and 

Quis autem Christianus est, quern ec- reads that known place, not nisi me 

clesia Christi, commendans scripturam commoveret, (as all read it,) but compel- 

Christi,noncommoveat? Whitak. Disp. leret. Patet; quia dicit Augustinus, 

de Sacra Scriptura, Cont. i. q. 3. c. 8. evangelio non crederem, nisi ad hoc me 

ubi citat locum hunc S. August. compelleret ecclesiae authoritas. Ibid. 

b Et ibid. Quibus obtemperavi di- And so also Gerson reads it, in Decla- 

centibus Credite evangelio. Therefore rat. Veritatum quae credendae sunt, &c. 

F 2 

68 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. magis, first and more bound to believe the church than the 
gospel; which your own learned men, as you may see by 
d Mel. Canus, reject as extreme foul, and so indeed it is. The 
first knowledge then (after the quid nominis is known by 
grammar) that helps to open a man's understanding, and 
prepares him to be able to demonstrate a truth and make it 
evident, is his logic ; but when he hath made a demonstra- 
tion, he resolves the knowledge of his conclusion, not into his 
grammatical or logical principles, but into the immediate 
principles out of which it is deduced. So in this particular, 
a man is probably led by the authority of the present church, 
as by the first informing, inducing, persuading means, to be- 
lieve the scripture to be the word of God ; but when he hath 
studied, considered, and compared this word with itself and 
with other writings, with the help of ordinary grace, and a 
mind morally induced and reasonably persuaded by the voice 
of the church, the scripture then gives greater and higher 
reasons of credibility to itself than tradition alone could give. 
And then he that believes resolves his last and full assent 
that scripture is of divine authority into internal arguments 
found in the letter itself, though found by the help and direc- 
tion of tradition without and grace within : and the resolution 
that is rightly grounded may not endure to pitch and rest 
itself upon the helps, but upon that divine light which the 
scripture no question hath in itself, but is not kindled till 
these helps come. ^Thy word is a light: so David. A light? 
therefore it is as much manifestativum sui as alterius, a mani- 
festation to itself as to other things which it shews ; but still, 
not till the candle be lighted, not till there hath been a pre- 
paring instruction what light it is. Children call the sun and 
moon candles, God's candles; they see the light as well as 
men, but cannot distinguish between them till some tradition 
and education hath informed their reason: and f animalis 
homo, the natural man, sees some light of moral counsel and 
instruction in scripture as well as believers ; but he takes all 

part. i. p. 414. 3. But in a most an- e Psal. cxix. 105. Sanctarum scrip- 

cient manuscript in Corpus Christi col- turarum lumen. S. August, lib. de Vera 

lege library in Cambridge, the words Relig. c. 7. Quid lucem scripturarum 

are nisi me commoveret, &c. vanis umbris ? &c. S. August, lib. de 

d Canus, Loc. lib. ii. c. 8 fol. 34. b. Mor. Eccl. Cathol. c. 35. 

Sect. 1 6. num. VI. f I Cor. ii. 14. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 69 

that glorious lustre for candlelight, and cannot distinguish Sect, j 6. 
between the sun and twelve to the pound, till tradition of the 
church, and God's grace put to it, have cleared his under- 
standing. So tradition of the present church is the first 
moral motive to belief ; but the belief itself that the scripture 
is the word of God rests Supon the scripture, when a man 
finds it to answer and exceed all that which the church gave 
in testimony, as will after appear : and as in the voice of the 
primitive and apostolical church there was h simply divine 
authority delivering the scripture as God's word, so, after 
tradition of the present church hath taught and informed the 
soul, the voice of God is plainly heard in scripture itself. And 
then here is double authority, and both divine, that confirms 
scripture to be the word of God tradition of the apostles 
delivering it, and the internal worth and argument in the 
scripture, obvious to a soul prepared by the present church's 
tradition and God's grace. 

XXII. The difficulties which are pretended against this 
are not many, and they will easily vanish. For, first, you 
pretend we go to private revelations for light to know scrip- 
ture. No, we do not, you see it is excluded out of the very 
state of the question ; and we go to the tradition of the pre- 
sent church, and by it, as well as you. Here we differ : we 
use the tradition of the present church as the first motive, 
not as the last resolution of our faith ; we resolve only into 
"prime tradition apostolical and scripture itself. 

XXIII. Secondly, you pretend we do not nor cannot 
know the prime apostolical tradition but by the tradition of 
the present church ; and that, therefore, if the tradition of 
the present church be not God's unwritten word, and divine, 
we cannot yet know scripture to be scripture by a divine 
authority. Well, suppose I could not know the prime tra- 

g Origen, irepl a.px<0>v 1. iv. c. I, went spake, ultimata resolutio Jidei was in 

this way, yet was he a great deal nearer Deum, not in ipsos per se, much more 

the prime tradition than we are ; for shall it be in Deum than in prcesentem 

being to prove that the scriptures were ecclesiam, and into the writings of the 

inspired from God, he saith, De hoc apostles than into the words of their 

assignabimus ex ipsis divinis scripturis, successors made up into a tradition, 
quae nos competenter moverint, &c. * Christiana ecclesia prophetarum 

h Principaliter tamen (etiam et hie) scriptis et apostolorum prtedicatione in- 

credimus propter Deum, non apostolos, itio fundata fuit, ubicunque reperietur 

&c. Henr. a Gand. Sum. A. 9. q. 3. ea doctrina, &c. Calv. Instit. 1. i. c. 5. 

Now if, where the apostles themselves .2. 

70 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. dition to be divine but by the present church ; yet it doth 
not follow that therefore I cannot know scripture to be the 
word of God by a divine authority, because divine tradition is 
not the sole and only means to prove it : for suppose I had 
not nor could have full assurance of apostolical tradition 
divine, yet the moral persuasion, reason, and force of the 
present church, is ground enough to move any reasonable man 
that it is fit he should read the scripture, and esteem very 
reverently and highly of it ; and this once done, the scripture 
hath then in and home arguments enough to put a soul, that 
hath but ordinary grace, out of doubt that scripture is the 
word of God, infallible and divine. 

XXIV. Thirdly, you pretend that we make the scripture 
absolutely and fully to be known lumine suo,\>y the light and 
testimony which it hath in and gives to itself. Against this 
you give reason for yourselves and proof from us. Your rea- 
son is, " If there be sufficient light in scripture to shew itself, 
then every man that can and doth but read it may know it 
presently to be the divine word of God, which we see by daily 
experience men neither do nor can." First, it is not abso- 
lutely nor universally true, There is k sufficient light, therefore 
every man may see it : blind men are men, and cannot see it ; 
and ] sensual men, in the apostle's judgment, are such: nor 
may we deny and put out this light as insufficient because 
blind eyes cannot and perverse eyes will not see it, no more 
than we may deny meat to be sufficient for nourishment, 
though men that are heart-sick cannot eat it. Next, we do 
not say that there is such a full light in scripture as that 
every man upon the first sight must yield to it, such light as 
is found in prime principles ; " Every whole is greater than a 
part of the same ;" and this, " The same thing cannot be and 
not be at the same time and in the same respect." These 
carry a natural light with them, and evident ; for the terms 
are no sooner understood than the principles themselves are 
fully known, to the convincing of man's understanding, and 
so they are the beginning of knowledge ; which, where it is 
perfect, dwells in full light : but such a full light we do neither 

k And where Hooker uses this very light," but, " if that light be evi- 
argument, as he doth b. iii. . 8, his dent." 
words are not, " If there be sufficient 1 i Cor. ii. 14. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 71 

say is, nor require to be in scripture ; and if any particular Sect. 16. 
man do, let him answer for himself. The question is only of 
such a light in scripture as is of force to breed faith that it 
is the word of God, not to make a perfect knowledge. Now 
faith, of whatsoever it is, this or other principle, is an m evi- 
dence as well as knowledge, and the belief is firmer than any 
knowledge can be, because it rests upon divine authority, 
which cannot deceive ; whereas knowledge (or at least he that 
thinks he knows) is not ever certain in deductions from prin- 
ciples. "But the evidence is not so clear ; for it is of things 
not seen., in regard of the object ; and in regard of the subject 
that sees, it is Pin cenigmate, in a glass or dark speaking. 
Now God doth not require a full demonstrative knowledge in 
us that the scripture is his word, and therefore in his provi- 
dence hath kindled in it no light for that ; but he requires our 
faith of it, and such a certain demonstration as may fit that : 
and for that he hath left sufficient light in scripture to reason 
and grace meeting, where the soul is morally prepared by 
the tradition of the church ; unless you be of q Bellarmine's 
opinion, " That to believe there are any divine scriptures is 
not omnino necessary to salvation." 

Heb. xi. r. And if he means by omnino that it is 

n Sect. 1 6. num. XIII. not in any wise necessary, then it is 

o Heb. xi. i. sensibly false; for the greatest uphold- 

P i Cor. xiii. 12. And A. C. con- ers of tradition that ever were made the 

fesses, p. 52, that this very thing in scripture very necessary in all the ages 

question may be known infallibly when of the church. So it was necessary be- 

it is known but obscurely. Et Scotus cause it was given, and given because 

in 3. Dist. 23. q. i. fol. 41. B. Hoc God thought it necessary. Besides, 

modo facile est videre, quomodo fides upon Roman grounds, this, I think, 

est cum aenigmate et obscuritate. Quia will follow : That which the tradition of 

habitus fidei non credit articulum esse the present church delivers as necessary 

verum ex evidentia objecti, sed propter to believe, is omnino necessary to salva- 

hoc quod assentit veracitati infundentis tion ; but that there are divine scrip- 

habitum, et in hoc revelantis credibilia. tures, the tradition of the present church 

Q Credere ullas esse divinas scriptu- delivers as necessary to believe : there- 

ras, non est omnino necessarium ad sa- fore, to believe there are divine scrip- 

httem. Bellarm. de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 14. tures is omnino (be the sense of the 

I will not break my discourse to rifle word what it can) necessary to salva- 

this speech of Bellarmine; it is bad tion. So Bellarmine is herein foul, and 

enough in the best sense that favour unable to stand upon his own ground ; 

itself can give it. For if he mean by and he is the more, partly because he 

omnino that it is not altogether or sim- avouches this proposition for truth after 

ply necessary to believe there is divine the New Testament written, and partly 

scripture and a written word of God, because he might have seen the state of 

that is false, that being granted which this proposition carefully examined by 

is among all Christians, that there is a Gandavo, and distinguished by times. 

scripture : and God would never have Sum. p. i. A. 8. q. 4. fine. 
given a supernatural unnecessary thing. 


72 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. XXV. The authority which you pretend against this is 
out of r Hooker : " Of things necessary, the very chiefest is to 
know what books we are bound to esteem holy ; which point 
is confessed impossible for the scripture itself to teach." Of 
this s Brerely (the storehouse for all priests that will be idle 
and yet seem well read) tells us that ut Hooker gives a very 
sensible demonstration : ' It is not the word of God which 
doth or possibly can assure us that we do well to think it is 
his word ; for if any one book of scripture did give testimony 
to all, yet still that scripture which giveth credit to the rest 
would require another to give credit unto it ; nor could we 
ever come to any pause to rest our assurance this way : so 
that unless, beside scripture, there were something that might 
assure,'" &c. And " u this he acknowledged," saith Brerely, 
" is the authority of God's church." Certainly Hooker gives a 
true and a sensible demonstration ; but Brerely wants fidelity 
and integrity in citing him ; for, in the first place, Hooker's 
speech is, " Scripture itself cannot teach this ;" nor can the 
truth say that scripture itself can ; it must needs ordinarily 
have tradition to prepare the mind of a man to receive it. 
And in the next place, where he speaks so sensibly, that 
scripture cannot bear witness to itself, nor one part of it 
to another, that is grounded upon nature, which admits no 
created thing to be witness to itself, and is acknowledged by 
our Saviour; x lf I bear witness to myself, my witness is not 
true, that is, is not of force to be reasonably accepted for 
truth. But then it is more than manifest that Hooker deli- 
vers his demonstration of scripture alone; for if scripture 
hath another proof, nay, many other proofs to usher it and 
lead it in, then no question it can both prove and approve 
itself. His words are, " So that unless, besides scripture, 
there be" &c. " Besides scripture ;" therefore he excludes 
not scripture, though he call for another proof to lead it in, 
and help in assurance, namely, tradition, which no man that 
hath his brains about him denies. In the two other places 
Brerely falsifies shamefully ; for, folding up all that Hooker 
says in these words, " This (other means to assure us besides 

r B. i. .14. u B. ii. . 7. and b. iii. . 8. 

s Protest. Apol. Tract, i. . 10. n. 3. x John v. 31 ; lie speaks of himself 

t B. ii. . 4. as man. John viii. 13. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 73 

scripture) is the authority of God's church,"" he wrinkles that Sect. 16. 
worthy author desperately, and shrinks up his meaning. For 
in the former place abused by Brerely, no man can set a better 
state of the question between scripture and tradition than 
Hooker doth : his words are these ; " y The scripture is the 
ground of our belief ; the authority of man (that is the name 
he gives to tradition) is the key which opens the door of 
entrance into the knowledge of the scripture." I ask now, 
When a man is entered and hath viewed a house, and upon 
viewing likes it, and upon liking resolves unchangeably to 
dwell there, doth he set up his resolution upon the key that 
let him in I No sure, but upon the goodness and commodious- 
ness which he sees in the house. And this is all the difference 
(that I know) between us in this point; in which do you 
grant (as you ought to do) that we resolve our faith into 
scripture as the ground, and we will never deny that tradition 
is the key that lets us in. In the latter place Hooker is as 
plain as constant to himself and truth : his words are ; " z The 
first outward motive leading men so to esteem of the scrip- 
ture is the authority of God's church," &c. " But afterwards, 
the more we bestow our labour in reading or learning the 
mysteries thereof, the more we find that the thing itself doth 
answer our received opinion concerning it ; so that the former 
inducement, prevailing somewhat with us before, doth now 
much more prevail, when the very thing hath ministered fur- 
ther reason." Here then again, in his judgment, tradition is 
the first inducement, but the further reason and ground is 
the scripture. And resolution of faith ever settles upon the 
furthest reason it can, not upon the first inducement. So 
that the state of this question is firm, and yet plain enough 
to him that will not shut his eyes. 

XXVI. Now here, after a long silence, A. C. thrusts him-A.C. p. 52. 
self in again, and tells me, " That if I would consider the 
tradition of the church, not only as it is the tradition of a 
company of fallible men, in which sense the authority of it 
(as himself confesses) is but human and fallible, &c., but as 
the tradition of a company of men assisted by Christ and his 
Holy Spirit ; in that sense I might easily find it more than 

y B. ii. . 7. z B. iii. . 8. 

74 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 16. an introduction ; indeed, as much as would amount to an 
infallible motive."" Well, I have considered the tradition of 
the present church both these ways ; and I find that A. C. 
confesses that in the first sense the tradition of the church is 
mere human authority, and no more ; and therefore, in this 
sense, it may serve for an introduction to this belief, but no 
more : and in the second sense, as it is not the tradition of 
a company of men only, but of men assisted by Christ and 
his Spirit; in this second sense I cannot find that the tradition 
of the present church is of divine and infallible authority, till 
A. C. can prove that this company of men (the Roman pre- 
lates and their clergy he means) are so fully, so clearly, so 
permanently assisted by Christ and his Spirit, as may reach 
to infallibility, to a divine infallibility, in this or any other 
principle which they teach : for every assistance of Christ 
and the blessed Spirit is not enough to make the authority 
of any company of men divine and infallible, but such and so 
*N> great an assistance only as is purposely given to that effect. 
Such an assistance the prophets under the old testament 
and the apostles under the new had; but neither the high 
priest with his clergy in the old, nor any company of prelates 
or priests in the new, since the apostles, ever had it. And 

A. C. p. 52. therefore, though at the entreaty of A. C. I have considered 
this very well, yet I cannot, no, not in this assisted sense, 
think the tradition of the present church divine and infallible, 
or " such company of men to be worthy of divine and infallible 
credit, and sufficient to breed in us divine and infallible faith ;" 

A. C. p. 52. which I am sorry A. C. should affirm so boldly as he doth. 
What ! that company of men (the Roman bishop and his 
clergy) of divine and infallible credit, and sufficient to breed 
in us divine and infallible faith ! Good God ! whither will 
these men go ? Surely they are wise in their generation, but 
that makes them never a whit the more the a children of light. 
And could they put this home upon the world, (as they are 
gone far in it,) what might they not effect ! How might they 
and would they then lord it over the faith of Christendom, 
contrary to b St. Peter's rule, (whose successors certainly in 
this they are not.) But I pray, if this company of men be 

a Luke xvi. 8. *> r Pet. v. 3. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 75 

infallibly assisted, whence is it that this very company have Sect. 1 6. 
erred so dangerously as they have, not only in some other 
things, but even in this particular, by equaling the tradition 
of the present church to the written word of God ? which is 
a doctrine unknown to the c primitive church, and which frets 
upon the very foundation itself by justling with it. So, belike, 
he that hath but half an indifferent eye may see this assisted 
company have erred, and yet we must wink in obedience and 
think them infallible. 

XXVII. But A. C. would have me consider again, " That A. C. p. 52. 
it is as easy to take the tradition of the present church in the 
two forenamed senses, as the present scriptures printed and 
approved by men of this age : for in the first sense, the very 
scriptures," saith he, " considered as printed and approved by 
men of this age, can be no more than of human credit ; but 
in the second sense, as printed and approved by men assisted 
by God's Spirit, for true copies of that which was first writ- 
ten, then we may give infallible credit to them." Well, I 
have considered this too; and I can take the printing and 
approving the copies of holy writ in these two senses ; and I 
can and do make a difference between copies printed and 
approved by mere moral men, and men assisted by God's 
Spirit. And yet for the printing only, a skilful and an able 
moral man may do better service to the church than an illi- 
terate man, though assisted in other things by God's Spirit. 
But when I have considered all this, what then? the scrip- 
ture, being put in writing, is a thing visibly existent ; and if 
any error be in the print, it is easily corrigible by d former 
copies. Tradition is not so easily observed, nor so safely 
kept. And, howsoever, to come home to that which A. C. A. C. p. 53. 

c St. Basil goes as far for traditions therefore must of necessity make scrip- 

as any ; for he says, Parem vim habent ture superior, inasmuch as that which 

ad pietatem. L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But is able to try another is of greater force 

first, he speaks of apostolical tradition, and superior dignity in that use than 

not of the tradition of the present the thing tried by it. And Stapleton 

church. Secondly, the learned take ex- himself confesses, Traditionem recen- 

ceptions to this book of St. Basil, as tiorem et posteriorem, sicut et particu- 

eorrupted. Bp. Andr. Opusc. cont. Pe- larem, nullo modo cum scriptura, vel 

ron. p. 9. Thirdly, St. Basil himself, cum traditionibus prius a se explicatis 

Serm. de Fide, professes that he uses comparandam esse. Stapl. Relect. Cont. 

sometimes agrapha, sed ea solum quae 5. q. 5. A. 2. 

non sunt aliena a pia secundum scrip- d Ut . 18. num. IV.; ex S. August, 

turam sententia. So he makes the cont. Faust, lib. xxxii. c. 16. 
scripture their touchstone or trial ; and 

76 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. infers upon it, namely, " That the tradition of the present 
church may be accepted in these two senses :" and if this be 
all that he will infer, (for his pen here is troubled and for- 
sakes him, whether by any check of conscience or no, I know 
not,) I will, and you see, have granted it already, without 
more ado, with this caution, that every company of men 
assisted by God's Spirit are not assisted to this height, to be 
infallible by divine authority. 

A. C. p. 53. XXVIII. For all this A. C. will needs give a needless 
proof of the business ; namely, " That there is the promise of 
Christ's and his Holy Spirit's continual presence and assist- 
ance, Luke x. 1 6. Matt, xxviii. 19, 20. John xiv. 16, not only 
to the apostles, but to their successors also, the lawfully sent 
pastors and doctors of the church in all ages ; and that this 
promise is no less, but rather more expressly to them in their 
preaching by word of mouth, than in writing, or reading, or 
printing, or approving of copies of what was formerly written 
by the apostles." And to all this I shall briefly say, that 
there is a promise of Christ's and the Holy Spirit's continual 
presence and assistance. I do likewise grant most freely 
that this promise is, on the part of Christ and the Holy 
Ghost, most really and fully performed. But then this pro- 
mise must not be extended further than it was made. It was 
made of continual presence and assistance ; that I grant : 
and it was made to the apostles and their successors ; that I 
grant too, but in a different degree ; for it was of continual 
and infallible assistance to the apostles, but to their suc- 
cessors of continual and fitting assistance, but not infallible. 
And therefore the lawfully sent pastors and doctors of the 
church in all ages have had and shall have continual assist- 
ance, but, by A. C.'s leave, not infallible, at least, not divine 
and infallible, either in writing, reading, printing, or approv- 
ing copies. And I believe A. C. is the first that durst affirm 
this: I thought he would have kept the pope's prerogative 
entire, that he only might have been infallible ; and not he 
neither, but in cathedra sat down and well advised. And 
well advised yes, that is right: e but he may be sat, and 

e Nam multse sunt decretales hsere- nisi manifeste constet, &c. Ja. Almain. 

ticae, sicut dicit Ocham. Et firmiter in 3. Sent. D. 24. q. unica, Conclus. 6. 

hoc credo, sed non licet dogrnatizare Dub. 6. fine. And Alphons. a Castro 

oppositum, quoniam sunt determinate, both says and proves, Crclestinum pa- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 77 

not well advised, even in cathedra. And now shall we have Sect. 16. 
all the lawfully sent pastors and doctors of that church in all 
ages infallible too ? Here is a deal of infallibility indeed, and 
yet error store. The truth is, the Jesuits have a month's 
mind to this infallibility ; and though A. C. out of his bounty 
is content to extend it to all the lawfully sent pastors of the 
church, yet to his own society, questionless, he means it 
chiefly ,- as did the apologist to whom Casaubon replies, to 
Fronto Ducaeus. The words of the f apologist are, " Let day 

and night life and death, be joined together, and then 

there will be some hope that heresy may fall upon the person 
of a Jesuit." Yea, marry, this is something indeed ; now we 
know where infallibility is to be found. But, for my present 
occasion, touching the lawfully sent pastors of the church, &c. 
I will give no other confutation of it than that Mr. Fisher 
and A. C. (if they be two men) are lawfully sent pastors and 
doctors of the church ; at least, I am sure they will assume 
they are; and yet they are not infallible, which, I think, 
appears plain enough in some of their errors manifested by 
this discourse and elsewhere. Or if they do hold themselves 
infallible, let them speak it out, as the apologist did. 

XXIX. As for the three places of scripture which A. C. A.C. p. 53." 
cites, they are of old alleged, and well known in this contro- 
versy. The first is in St. Luke x., where Christ saith, sffe 
that heareth you heareth me. This was absolutely true in the 
h apostles, who kept themselves to that which was revealed 
by Christ : but it was to be but conditionally true in their 
' successors ; He that heareth you heareth me ; that is, so long 

pam errasse, non ut privatam personam, haeresin cadere." Isa. Casaxibon. Ep. ad 

sed ut papam. Adv. Haer. lib. i. c. 4. Front. Ducaeum. Lond. 1611. 
And the Gloss confesses, eum errare & Luke x. 16. 

posse, in C. 24. q. i. C. A. Recta ergo. & Per quod docet quicquid per sanctos 

f Nam in fide quidem Jesuitam er- apostolos dicitur acceptandum esse, quia 

rare non posse, atque adeo esse hoc qui illos audit Christum audit, &c. 

unicum T>V aSwaTcav, caeteris, quae so- S. Cyrillus apud Thorn, in Catena. Et 

lent a poetis plurima commemorari, Dominus dedit apostolis suis potesta- 

postliac annumerandum, si nescis, mi tern evangelii, per quos et veritatem, id 

Fronto, et puto nescire, docebo te, ab est, Dei Filium, cognovimus, &c. Qui- 

apologista doctus, hoc ipsum disertis bus et dixit Dominus, Qui vos audit, &c. 

verbis affirmante. Sic ille cap. 3. ejus Iren. praef. in lib. iii. adv. Haer. fine, 
exemplaris quod ad sereniss. regem nut i Dicit ad apostolos, ac per hoc ad 

missum, pagina 119; " Jungantur in omnes praepositos, qui apostolis vicaria 

urium," ait, " dies cum nocte, tenebrae ordinatione succedunt. S. Cyprian, lib. 

cum luce, calidum cum frigido, sanitas iv. epist. 9. But St. Cyprian doth not 

cum morbo, vita cum morte: et erit say that this speech of our Saviour's 

turn spes aliqua posse in caput Jesuitae was fequaliter dictum., alike and equally 

78 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. and so 'far as you J speak my words, and not your own. For 
k where the command is for preaching, the restraint is added: 
Go (saith Christ) and teach all nations : but you may not 
preach all things what you please, but all things which I have 
commanded you: the publication is yours, the doctrine is 
mine ; and where the doctrine is not mine, there your publi- 
cation is beyond or short of your commission. The second 
place is in St. Matth. xxviii. There Christ says again, l l am 
with you alway even unto the end of the world. Yes, most cer- 
tain it is, present by his Spirit ; for else in bodily presence 
he continued not with his apostles but during his abode on 
earth. And this promise of his spiritual presence was to 
their successors, else why to the end of the world? the apostles 
did not, could not, live so long : but then to the m successors 
the promise goes no further than / am with you always; 
which reaches to continual assistance, but not to divine and 
infallible. Or if he think me mistaken, let him shew me any 
one Father of the church that extends the sense of this place 
to divine and infallible assistance granted hereby to all the 
apostles'* successors. Sure I am n St. Gregory thought other- 
wise ; for he says plainly, " That in those gifts of God which 
concern other men's salvation, (of which preaching of the 
gospel is one,) the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost, doth not 
always abide in the preachers," be they never so lawfully sent 
pastors or doctors of the church. And if the Holy Ghost 

spoken and promised to the apostles than that to the end some will always 

and the succeeding bishops. And I be- be in the world fit for Christ by his 

lieve A. C. will not dare to say, in plain Spirit and grace to inhabit, Divina 

and express terms, that this speech, He mansione et inhabitatione digni. Rab. 

that heareth you heareth me, doth as in Matt, xxviii. 19, 20. Pergatis ha- 

amply belong to every Roman priest as bentes Dominum protectorern et du- 

to St. Peter and the apostles : no, a great cem, saith St. Cyprian, lib. iv. epist. I. 

deal of difference will become them well, but he doth not say how far forth. 

i Be ye followers of me, even as I also And, Loquitur fidelibus sicut uni cor- 

am of Christ, i Cor. xi. i. and i Thess. pori. S. Chrysost. Homil. in S. Matth. 

i. 6. And if St. Chrysostom enlarge it so 

J And so Venerable Bede expressly, far, I hope A. C. will not extend the 

both for hearing the word, and for con- assistance given or promised here to the 

temning it. " For neither of these," whole body of the faithful to an infal- 

saith he, "belong only to them which lible and divine assistance in every of 

saw our Saviour in the flesh, but to all them, as well as in the pastors and 

hodie quoque ; but with this limitation, doctors. 

if they hear or despise evangelii verba, n In illis donis quibus salus aliorum 

not the preachers' own." Beda in Luc. quaeritur (qualia sunt prophetiae, et in- 

x. 15, 1 6. terpretationes sermormm, &c.) Spiritus 

k Matt, xxviii. 20. Sanctus nequaquam semper in prsedica- 

1 Matt, xxviii. 19, 20. toribus permanet. S. Greg. Moral, lib. 

m Rabanus Maur. goes no further ii. c. 29. princ. edit. Basil. 1551. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 79 

doth not always abide in the preachers, then most certainly Sect. 1 6. 
he doth not abide in them to a divine infallibility always. 
The third place is in St. John xiv., where Christ says, The 
Comforter, the Holy Ghost, shall abide with you for ever. Most 
true again ; for the Holy Ghost did abide with the apostles 
according to Christ's promise there made, and shall abide 
with their successors for ever, to P comfort and preserve them. 
But here is no promise of divine infallibility made unto them. 
And for that promise which is made, and expressly of infalli- 
bility, qSt. John xvi. (though not cited by A. C.), that is con- 
fined to the apostles only, for the settling of them in all truth. 
And yet not simply all; for "there are some truths," saith 
r St. Augustine, " which no man's soul can comprehend in this 
life :" not simply all; but s all those truths quce non poterant 
portare, which they were not able to bear when he conversed 
with them : not simply all; but all that was necessary for 
the founding, propagating, establishing and confirming the 
Christian church. But if any man take the boldness to en- 
large this promise in the fulness of it beyond the persons of 
the apostles themselves, that will fall out which l St. Augustine 
hath in a manner prophesied ; every heretic will shelter him- 
self and his vanities under this colour of infallible verity. 

XXX. I told you a u little before that A.C. his pen wasA.C. p. 52. 
troubled, and failed him ; therefore I will help to make out 
his inference for him, that his cause may have all the strength 
it can. And (as I conceive) this is that he would have; 
The tradition of the present church is as able to work in us 
divine and infallible faith that the scripture is the word of 
God, as that the Bible (or books of scripture) now printed 
and in use is a true copy of that which was first written by 

o John xiv. 1 6. s Spiritns Sanctus, &c. qui eos doce- 

P Iste consolator non auferetur a vo- ret omnem veritatem, quam tune, cum 

bis, sicut subtrahitur humanitas mea per iis loquebatur, portare non poterant. 

mortem, sed aeternaliter erit vobiscum, S. Joh. xvi. 12, 13. et S. August, in 

hie per gratiam, in futuro per gloriam. S. Joh. Tract. 97. princ. 

Lyra in S. Joh. xiv. 16. You see there t Omnes vel insipientissimi haeretici, 

the Holy Ghost shall ^e present by con- qui se Christianos vocari volunt, auda- 

solation and grace, not by infallible cias ngmentorum suorum, quas maxime 

assistance. exhorret sensus humanus, hac occasione 

CL John xvi. 13. evangelicse sententise colorare conentur, 

r Omnem veritatem : non arbitror &c. S. August, in S. Joh. Tract. 97. 

in hac vita in cujusquam mente com- circa med. 

pleri, &c, S. August, in S. Joh. Tract. u Num. XXVI. 

96. versus fin. 

80 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. the penmen of the Holy Ghost, and delivered to the church. 
It is most true the tradition of the present church is alike 
operative and powerful in and over both these works, but 
neither divine nor infallible in either. But as it is the first 
moral inducement to persuade that scripture is the word of 
God, so is it also the first, but moral still, that the Bible 
we now have is a true copy of that which was first written. 
But then as in the former, so in this latter for the true copy, 
the last resolution of our faith cannot possibly rest upon the 
naked tradition of the present church, but must by and with 
it go higher to other helps and assurances. Where I hope 
A. C. will confess we have greater helps to discover the truth 
or falsehood of a copy, than we have means to look into a 
tradition. Or especially to sift out this truth, that it was 
a divine and infallible revelation by which the originals of 
scripture were first written ; that being far more the subject 
of this inquiry than the copy, which, according to art and 
science, may be examined by former preceding copies close 
up to the very apostles' times. 

A. C. p. 53. XXXI. But A. C. hath not done yet ; for in the last place 
he tells us, " That tradition and scripture, without any vicious 
circle, do mutually confirm the authority either of other." 
And truly, for my part, I shall easily grant him this, so he will 
grant me this other ; namely, that though they do mutually, 
yet they do not equally confirm the authority either of other. 
For scripture doth infallibly confirm the authority of church 
traditions truly so called; but tradition doth but morally 
and probably confirm the authority of the scripture. And 
this is manifest by A. C.'s own similitude : " for," saith he, " it 
is as a king's ambassador's word of mouth and his king's 
letters bear mutual witness to each other." Just so, indeed. 
For his king's letters of credence under hand and seal con- 
firm the ambassador's authority infallibly to all that know 
seal and hand : but the ambassador's word of mouth confirms 
his king's letters but only probably. For else, why are they 
called letters of credence, if they give not him more credit 
than he can give them I But that which follows I cannot 
approve, to wit, " That the lawfully sent preachers of the 
gospel are God's legates, and the scriptures God's letters, 
which he hath appointed his legates to deliver and expound." 

Fisher the Jesuit. 81 

So far it is well, but here is the sting: " That these letters Sect. 16. 
do warrant, that the people may hear and give credit to 
these legates of Christ, as to Christ the King himself." Soft, 
this is too high a great deal. No v legate was ever of so great 
credit as the king himself. Nor was any priest, never so 
lawfully sent, ever of that authority as Christ himself; no 
sure, for ye call me Master and Lord : and ye say well ; for 
so I am*, saith our Saviour, St. John xiii. And certainly 
this did not suddenly drop out of A. C.'s pen. For he told us A. C. p. 52. 
once before, " That this company of men which deliver the 
present church's tradition (that is, the lawfully sent preachers 
of the church) are assisted by God's Spirit to have in them 
divine and infallible authority, and to be worthy of divine 
and infallible credit, sufficient to breed in us divine and 
infallible faith/' 1 Why, but is it possible these men should 
go thus far to defend an error, be it never so dear unto 
them ? They as Christ ! Divine and infallible authority in 
them ! Sufficient to breed in us divine and infallible faith ! 
I have often heard some wise men say, that the Jesuit in 
the church of Rome and the precise party in the reformed 
churches agree in many things, though they would seem most 
to differ. And surely this is one ; for both of them differ 
extremely about tradition : the one in magnifying it, and 
exalting it into divine authority ; the other vilifying and 
depressing it almost beneath human. And yet even in these 
different ways both agree in this consequent, That the 
sermons and preachings by word of mouth of the lawfully 
sent pastors and doctors of the church are able to breed 
in us divine and infallible faith ; nay, are the y very word of 
God. So A. C. expressly. And no less than so have 
some accounted of their own factious words, to say no more, 
than as the z word of God. I ever took sermons, and so do 
still, to be most necessary expositions and applications of 

v Will A. C. maintain that any legate church in all ages, in their teaching by 

a Latere is of as great credit as the pope word of mouth, than in writing," &c. 

himself? p. 53. 

x John xiii. 13. z For the freeing of factious and 
y For this A. C. says expressly of silenced ministers is termed the " re- 
tradition, p. 52. And theu he adds, storing of God's word to its liberty," 
" that the promise for this was no less, in the godly author of the late News 
but rather more expressly, made to the from Ipswich, p. 5 . 
lawfully sent pastors and doctors of the 

82 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. holy scripture, and a great ordinary means of saving know- 
ledge. But I cannot think them or the preachers of them 
divinely infallible. The ancient Fathers of the church 
preached far beyond any of these of either faction ; and yet 
no one of them durst think himself infallible, much less that 
whatsoever he preached was the word of God. And it may 
be observed too, that no men are more apt to say that all 
the Fathers were but men and might err, than they that 
think their own preachings are infallible. 

XXXII. The next thing, after this large interpretation 
of A. C., which I shall trouble you with, is, that this method 
and manner of proving scripture to be the word of God, 
which I here use, is the same which the ancient church ever 
held, namely, tradition, ecclesiastical authority, first ; and 
then all other arguments, but especially internal, from the 
scripture itself. This way the church went in St. Augus- 
tine's time a . He was no enemy to church tradition; yet 
when he would prove that the author of the scripture, and 
so of the whole knowledge of divinity as it is supernatural, 
is Deus in Christo, God in Christ, he takes this as the all- 
sufficient way, and gives four proofs, all internal to the scrip- 
ture : first, the miracles ; secondly, " That there is nothing 
carnal in the doctrine ;" thirdly, " That there hath been 
such performance of it ;" fourthly, " That by such a doc- 
trine of humility the whole world almost hath been con- 
verted." And whereas ad muniendam fidem, for the defending 
of the faith and keeping it entire, there are two things 
requisite, scripture and church tradition, b Vincentius Liri- 
nensis places authority of scriptures first, and then tradition. 
And since it is apparent that tradition is first in order of 
time, it must necessarily follow that scripture is first in order 
of nature, that is, the chief upon which faith rests and re- 
solves itself. And your own school confesses this was the 

a And St. Augustine himself, contra Religione ; in which book though these 

Faust, lib. xiii. c. 5, proves by an in- four arguments are not found in terms 

ternal argument the fulfilling of the together, yet they fill up the scope of 

prophets. Scriptura (saith he) quae fidem the whole book. 

suam rebus ipsis probat quae per tern- b Duplici modo muniri fidem, &c. 

porum successiones haec impleri, &c. Primo diviriae legis authoritate, turn 

And Henr. a Gand., par. i. Sum. A. 9. deinde ecclesiae catholics traditione. 

q. 3, cites St. Augustine's book de Vera Cont. Haer. c. i. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 83 

way ever. The woman of c Samaria is a known resemblance, Sect. 16. 
but allowed by yourselves; " for d quotidie, daily with them 
that are without, Christ enters by the woman, that is, the 
church, and they believe by that fame which she gives," &c. 
But when they come to hear Christ himself, they believe his 
word before the words of the woman. For when they have 
once found Christ, " e they do more believe his words in 
scripture than they do the church which testifies of him ; 
because then propter illam, for the scripture they believe 
the church ; and if the church should speak contrary to the 
scripture, they would not believe it." Thus the school taught 
then ; and thus the gloss commented then ; and when men 
have tired themselves, hither they must come. The key 
that lets men into the scriptures, even to this knowledge of 
them, that they are the word of God, is the tradition of 
the church ; but when they are in, f " they hear Christ 
himself immediately speaking in scripture to the faithful ; 
gand his sheep do not only hear but know his voice." And 
then here is no vicious circle indeed of proving the scripture 
by the church, and then roundabout, the church by the 
scripture. Only distinguish the times and the conditions of 
men, and all is safe. For a beginner in the faith, or a weak- 
ling, or a doubter about it, begins at tradition, and proves 
scripture by the church ; but a man strong and grown up 
in the faith, and under standingly conversant in the word 
of God, proves the church by the scripture : and then upon 
the matter we have a double divine testimony altogether 
infallible, to confirm unto us that scripture is the word 
of God. The first is the tradition of the church of the 
apostles themselves, who delivered immediately to the world 
the word of Christ : the other, the scripture itself, but after 
it hath received this testimony. And into these we do and 

c John iv. fidem tribuamus scripturis canonicis, 

d Henr. a Grand. Sum. pai-. i. A. 10. secundam, sub ista, definitionibus et 

q. i. Sic quotidie apud illos qui foris consuetudinibus ecclesiae catholic*, post 

sunt, intrat Christus per mulierem, i. e. istas studiosis viris non sub poena per- 

ecclesiam, et credunt per istam famam, fidiae, sed proterviae, &c. Walden. Doct. 

&c. Gloss, in S. Joh. cap. 4. Fid. torn. i. lib. ii. Art. 2. c. 23. 

e Ibid. Plus verbis Christ! in scrip- num. 9. 

tura credit, quam ecclesiae testificanti ; f In sacra scriptura ipse immediate 

quia propter illam jam credit ecclesiae. loquitur fidelibus. Ibid. 

Et si ipsa quidem contraria scripturae S John x. 4. 

diceret, ipsi non crederet, &c. Primam 

G 2 

J. ^ 

Sect. 16. may safely resolve our faith. " h As for the tradition of 
afterages, in and about which miracles and divine power 
were not so evident, we believe them (by Gandavo^s full con- 
fession) because they do not preach other things than those 
former (the apostles) left in scriptis certissimis, in most cer- 
tain scripture. And it appears by men in the middle ages, 
that these writings were vitiated in nothing, by the con- 
cordant consent in them of all succeeders to our own time." 

XXXIII. And now by this time it will be no hard thing 
to reconcile the Fathers, which seem to speak differently 
in no few places, both one from another, and the same from 
themselves, touching scripture and tradition ; and that as 
well in this point, to prove scripture to be the word of God, 
as for concordant exposition of scripture in all things else. 
When therefore the Fathers say, " J We have the scriptures 
by tradition," or the like ; either they mean the tradition of 
the apostles themselves delivering it, and there, when it is 
known to be such, we may resolve our faith ; or if they speak 
of the present church, then they mean, that the tradition of 
it is that by which we first receive the scripture, as by an 
according means to the prime tradition. But because it is 
not simply divine, we cannot resolve our faith into it, nor 
settle our faith upon it, till it resolve itself into the prime 
tradition of the apostles, or the scripture, or both; and 
there we rest with it. And you cannot shew an ordinary 
consent of Fathers ; nay, can you or any of your quar- 
ter shew any one Father of the church, Greek or Latin, that 
ever said, We are to resolve our faith that scripture is 
the word of God into the tradition of the present church? 
And again, when the Fathers say we are to rely upon 
scripture k only, they are never to be understood with exclu- 
sion of tradition, in what causes soever it may be had ; " } not 

h Quod autem credimus posteriori- non inveniuntur in literis apostolorum, 

bus, circa quos non apparent virtutes &c. nonnisi ah illis tradita et commen- 

divinae, hoc est, quia non prasdicant data creduntur. S. August. 2. de Bap- 

alia, quam quae illi in scriptis certissimis tism. contra Donat. c. 7. 
reliquerunt. Quae constat per medios k Non aliunde scientia ccelestium. 

in nullo fuisse vitiata ex consensione S. Hilar. lib. iv. de Trinit Si angelus 

concordi in eis omnium succedentium de ccelo annunciaverit preeterquam quod 

usque ad tempora nostra. Hen.aGand. in scripturis, &c. S. August, lib. iii. 

Sum. p i. A. 9. q. 3. cont. Petil. c. 6. 

i Scripturas habemus ex traditione. 1 Quum sit perfectus scripturarum 

S. Cyril. Hier. Catech. 4. Multa quae canon, sibique ad omnia satis superque 

Fisher the Jesuit. 85 

but that the scripture is abundantly sufficient in and to itself Sect. 16. 
for all things; but because it is deep, and may be drawn 
into different senses, and so mistaken, if any man will pre- 
sume upon his own strength, and go single without the 

XXXIV. To gather up whatsoever may seem scattered 
in this long discourse to prove that scripture is the word 
of God, I shall now in the last place put all together, that 
so the whole state of the question may the better appear. 

First, then, I shall desire the reader to consider that every Punct. i. 
rational science requires some principles quite without its 
own limits, which are not proved in that science, but pre- 
supposed. Thus rhetoric presupposes grammar, and music 
arithmetic. Therefore it is most reasonable that m theology 
should be allowed to have some principles also, which she 
proves not, but presupposes. And the chiefest of these is, 
That the scriptures are of divine authority. 

Secondly, That there is a great deal of difference in the Punct. 2. 
manner of confirming the principles of divinity, and those of 
any other art or science whatsoever. For the principles of 
all other sciences do finally resolve, either into the conclu- 
sions of some higher science, or into those principles which 
are per se nota, known by their own light, and are the grounds 
and principles of all science. And this is it which properly 
makes them sciences, because they proceed with such strength 
of demonstration as forces reason to yield unto them. But 
the principles of divinity resolve not into the grounds of 
natural reason, (for then there will be no room for faith, but 
all would be either knowledge or vision,) but into the maxims 
of divine knowledge supernatural. And of this we have just 
so much light and no more than God hath revealed unto 
us in the scripture. 

Thirdly, That though the evidence of these supernatural Punct. 3. 
truths which divinity teaches appears not so manifest as 

sufficiat, &c. Vin. Lirin. contra Haeres. how all things in the world do jide 

c. 2. And if it be sibi ad omnia, then consistere. Therefore most unreason- 

to this to prove itself, at least after able to deny that to divinity which all 

tradition hath prepared us to receive it. sciences, nay all things challenge ; 

m Omnis scientia prsesnpponit ndem namely, some things to be presupposed 

aliquam. S. Prosper, in Psal. cxxiii. and believed, 
and St. Cyril, Hierosol. Catech. 5, shews 

86 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. that of the natural, "yet they are in themselves much more 
sure and infallible than they ; for they proceed immediately 
from God, that heavenly wisdom, which being the fountain 
of ours must needs infinitely precede ours, both in nature 
and excellence. He that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he 
know? Psal. xciv. And therefore, though we reach not 
the order of their deductions, nor can in this life come to 
the vision of them, yet we yield as full and firm assent, not 
only to the articles, but to all the things rightly deduced 
from them, as we do to the most evident principles of natural 
reason. This assent is called faith; and faith being of 
things not seenP, Heb. xi., q would quite lose its honour, nay 
itself, if it met with sufficient grounds in natural reason 
whereon to stay itself. For faith is a mixed act of the will 
and the understanding, and the r will inclines the understand- 
ing to yield full approbation to that whereof it sees not full 
proof: not but that there is most full proof of them, but 
because the main grounds which prove them are concealed 
from our view, and folded up in the unrevealed counsel of 
God ; God in Christ resolving to bring mankind to their last 
happiness by faith and not by knowledge, that so the weakest 
among men may have their way to blessedness open. And 
certain it is that many weak men believe themselves into 
heaven, and many over-knowing Christians lose their way 

n Si vis credere manifestis invisibili- Et qui voluerunt, crediderunt. S.August, 

bus, magis quam visibilibus oportet ere- Serai. 60. de Verb. Dom. c. 5. Fides 

dere. Licet dictum sit admirabile, verum actus est, non solius intellectus, sed 

est, &c. S. Chrysostom. Horn. 46. ad etiam voluntatis, quse cogi non potest. 

Pop. And there he proves it. Aliae Imo magis voluntatis quam intellectus, 

scientiae certitudinem habent ex natu- quatemis ilia operationis principium est, 

rali lumine rationis humanae, quae de- et assensum (qui proprie actus fidei est) 

cipi potest : hasc autem ex lumine sola elicit. Nee ab intelleetu voluntas, 

divinae scientiae, quau decipi non potest. sed a voluntate intellectus in actu fidei 

Thorn, p. i. q. I. A. 5. C. determinatur. Stapl. Triplic. cont. 

o Psal. xciv. 10. Our old English Whitak. c. 6. p. 64 Credere enim 

translation reads it, shall not he punish 2 est actus intellectus determinati ad 

that is, shall not he know when, and unum ex iiuperio voluntatis. Thorn. 2. 

why, and how to punish ? 2. q. 4. A. i. C. Non potest dari aliquis 

P Heb. xi. i. assensus fidei, quicunque ille sit, qui 

q Si sit ratio convincens, et propter non dependet in suis causis mediate vel 

earn quis credat, alias non crediturus, immediate ab actu voluntatis. Aim. in 

tollitur meritum fidei. Biel. 3. D. 25. 3. Sent. D. 24. Conclus. 6. Dub. 4. 

q. unic. fine Non est dicendus ere- And St. Augustine says, Fidei locum esse 

dere, cujus judicium subigitur, aut cOr. Tract. 52. in S. Joh. ; where the 

cogitur, &c. Stapl. Triplicat. contra heart is put for the whole soul, which 

'Whitak. cap. 6. p. 64. equally comprehends both the will and 

r Fides non fit in nobis nisi volenti- the understanding. And so doth Biel 

bus. Tolet. in S. Joh. xvi. Annot. 33. also, in Sent. D. 25. q. unic. Art. i. F. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 87 

thither, while they will believe no more than they can clearly Sect. 16. 
know. In which pride and vanity of theirs they are left, 
and have these things hid from them 8 . 

Fourthly, That the credit of the scripture, the book in Punct. 4. 
which the principles of faith are written, (as of other writings 
also,) depends not upon the subservient inducing cause that 
leads us to the first knowledge of the Author, which leader 
here is the church, but upon the Author himself, and the 
opinion we have of his sufficiency, which here is the Holy 
Spirit of God, whose penmen the prophets and apostles 
were. And therefore the mysteries of divinity contained 
in this book as the incarnation of our Saviour, the resur- 
rection of the dead, and the like cannot finally be resolved 
into the sole testimony of the church, who is but a subser- 
vient cause to lead to the knowledge of the Author, but into 
the wisdom and sufficiency of the Author, who being omnipo- 
tent and omniscient must needs be infallible. 

Fifthly, That the assurance we have of the penmen of the Punct. 5. 
scriptures, the holy prophets and apostles, is as great as any 
can be had of any human authors of like antiquity. For 
it is morally as evident to any pagan, that St. Matthew and 
St. Paul writ the Gospel and Epistles which bear their names, 
as that Cicero or Seneca wrote theirs. But that the apostles 
were divinely inspired whilst they writ them, and that they 
are the very word of God expressed by them, this hath ever 
been a matter of faith in the church, and was so even while 
the apostles themselves t lived, and was never a matter of 
evidence and knowledge, at least as knowledge is opposed 
to faith. Nor could it at any time then be more demon- 
stratively proved than now. I say, not scientific^, not de- 
monstratively. For were the apostles living, and should 
they tell us that they spake and writ the very oracles of 
God, yet this were but their own testimony of themselves, 

s Matt. xi. 25. immediate illuminabat, cansahat evi- 

t The apostles indeed they knew, for dentiam. Jac. Almain. in 3. Sent, 

they had clear revelation : they to whom Dist. 24. q. uriica. Conclns. 6 But for 

they preached might believe, but they the residue of men it is no more but 

could not know without the like reve- as Thomas hath it, Oportet quod cre- 

lation. So St. John xix. 35 : He that datur authoritati eorum, quibns reve- 

saw knows that he says true, that you latio facta est. Thorn, p. i. q. i. A. 8. 

which saw not might believe. Deus ad 8. 
in prophetis (et sic in apostolis) quos 

G 4 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. and so not alone able to enforce belief on others. And for 
their miracles, though they were very great inducements of 
belief, yet were neither they evident and convincing proofs u 
alone and of themselves ; both because there may be coun- 
terfeit miracles, and because true ones are neither v infallible 
nor inseparable marks of truth in doctrine : not infallible, 
for they may be marks of false doctrine in the highest de- 
gree x , Deut. xiii. ; not proper and inseparable, for >all 
which wrote by inspiration did not confirm their doctrine by 
miracles : for we do not find that David or Solomon, with 
some other of the prophets, did any, neither were any wrought 
by St. John the Baptist, z St. John x. So as credible signs 
they were and are still of as much force to us as it is possible 
for things on the credit of relation to be ; for the witnesses 
are many, and such as spent their lives in making good the 
truth which they saw : but that the workers of them were 
divinely and infallibly inspired in that which they preached 
and writ, was still to the a hearers a matter of faith, and 

u Non est evidens vel ista esse vera 
miracula, vel ista fieri ad illam veri- 
tatem comprobandam. Jac. Almain, 
in 3. Sent. D. 24. q. unica. Conclus. 6. 
Therefore the miracles which Christ 
and his apostles did were fully suffi- 
cient to heget faith to assent, but not 
evidence to convince. 

v Cantos nos fecit sponsus, quia et 
miraculis decipi non debemus. S. August. 
in S. Joh. torn. xiii. And he that says 
we ought not to be deceived, acknow- 
ledges that we may be deceived, even 
by miracles. And arguments which 
can deceive are not sufficient to con- 
vince ; though they be sometimes too 
full of efficacy to pervert. And so plainly 
Alrnain out of Ocham. Nunquam ac- 
quiritur evidentia per medium quod de 
se generat falsum assensum, sicut ve- 
ruin. Jac Almain. in 3. Sent. D. 24. 
q. unic. Conclus. 6. And therefore that 
learned Roman catholic, who tells us 
" the apostles' miracles made it evident 
that their doctrine was true and divine," 
went too far. Credible they made it, 
but not evident. And therefore he is 
after forced to confess, " that the soul 
sometimes assents not to the miracles 
but in great timidity;" which cannot 
stand with clear evidence. And after 
again, " That the soul may renounce 
the doctrine formerly confirmed by 

miracles, unless some inward and su- 
pernatural light be given," &c. And 
neither can this possibly stand with 
evidence. And therefore Bellarmine 
goes no further than this : Miracula esse 
sufficientia, et efficacia ad novam fidem 
persuadendam, de Notis Eccles. lib. iv. 
c. 14. . i, to induce and persuade, 
but not to convince. And Thomas will 
not grant so much, for he says ex- 
pressly : Miraculum non est sufficiens 
causa inducens fidem. Quia videntium 
unum et idem miraculum, quidam cre- 
dunt, et quidam non. Thorn. 2. 2. q. 6. 
A. i. C. And Ambros. Catherin. in 
Rom. x. 15. is downright at Nulla 
fides est habenda signo. Examinanda 
sunt, &c. Anastasius Nizenus Episco- 
pus, apud Baron, ad an. 360. num. 21. 
Non sunt necessaria signa verre fidei, 
&c. Suarez. Defens. Fidei Cathol. lib. i. 
cap. 7. num. 3. 

x Deut. xiii. i, 2, 3. 2 Thess. ii. 9. 
Mark xiii. 22. 

y Operatio virtutum alteri datur^ 
i Cor. xii. 10. (to one and another, he 
saith, not to all,) daemonia fugare, 
mortuos suscitare, &c. dedit quibusdam 
discipulis suis, quibusdam non dedit ; 
(that is, to do miracles.) S. August. 
Serm. 22. de Verbis Apost. c. 5. 

z John x. 41. 

a Here it may be observed, how 

Fisher the Jesuit. 89 

no more evident by the light of human reason to men that Sect. 16. 
lived in those days than to us now. For had that been 
demonstrated, or been clear (as prime principles are) in its 
own light, both they and we had apprehended all the mys- 
teries of divinity by knowledge, not by faith. But this is 
most apparent was not. For had the prophets or apostles 
been ordered by God to make this demonstratively or intui- 
tively, by discourse or vision, appear as clear to their auditors 
as to themselves it did, that whatsoever they taught was 
divine and infallible truth, all men which had the true use 
of reason must have been forced to yield to their doctrine ; 
Isaiah could never have been at Domine quis? ^ Lord, who 
hath believed our report ? Isaiah liii. ; nor Jeremy at Domine 
factus sum, c Lord, I am in derision daily, Jer. xx. Nor could 
any of St. Paul's auditors have mocked at him (as some of 
them did), d Acts xvii., for preaching the resurrection, if they 
had had as full a view as St. Paul himself had in the assur- 
ance which God gave of it in and by the resurrection of 
Christ, verse 31. But the way of knowledge was not that 
which God thought fittest for man's salvation. For man 
having sinned by pride, God thought fittest to humble him 
at the very root of the tree of knowledge, and make him 
deny his understanding and submit to faith, or hazard his 
happiness. The credible object all the while, that is, the 
mysteries of religion and the scripture which contains them, 
is divine and infallible, and so are the penmen of them by 
revelation. But we and all our forefathers, the hearers and 
readers of them, have neither e knowledge nor vision of the 

warily A. C. carries himself : for when so might have held his peace : for the 

he hath said, " That a clear revelation question is not, what clear evidence 

was made to the apostles," which is the apostles had, but what evidence 

most true ; and so the apostles knew they had which heard them, 

that which they taught simpliciter a b Isaiah liii. i. c Jer. xx. 7. 

priori, most demonstratively from the d Acts xvii. 32. And had Zedekiah 

prime Cause, God himself: then he and the people seen it as clearly as 

adds, p. 51. " I say, dare in attestante :" Jeremy himself did, that the word he 

that is, the revelation of this truth spake was God's word and infallible, 

was clear in the apostles that witnessed Jerusalem, for aught we know, had 

it. But to make it knowledge in the not been laid desolate by the Chaldeans, 

auditors, the same or like revelation, But because they could not see this by 

and as clear, must be made to them, the way of knowledge, and would not 

For they could have no other knowing believe it by way of faith, they and 

assurance; credible they might, and that city perished together. Jer. xxxviii. 

had. So A. C. is wary there, but 17. 

comes not home to the business, and e Nemo pius, nisi qui scripturae credit. 

90 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. prime principles in or about them, but f faith only. And the 
revelation which was clear to them is not so to us, nor there- 
fore the prime tradition itself delivered by them. 

Punct. 6. Sixthly, That hence it may be gathered, that the assent 
which we yield to this main principle of divinity that the 
scripture is the word of God is grounded upon no compelling 
or demonstrative ratiocination, but relies upon the strength 
of faith more than any other principle whatsoever, g For all 
other necessary points of divinity may by undeniable discourse 
be inferred out of scripture itself once admitted; but this 
concerning the authority of scripture not possibly ; but must 
either be proved by revelation, which is not now to be ex- 
pected, or presupposed and granted as manifest in itself, like 
the principles of natural knowledge, which reason alone will 
never grant ; or by tradition of the church, both prime and 
present, with all other rational helps preceding or accompany- 
ing the internal light in scripture itself; which though it give 
light enough for faith to believe, yet light enough it gives not 
to be a convincing reason and proof for knowledge. And 
this is it which makes the very entrance into divinity inacces- 
sible to those men who, standing high in the opinion of their 
own wisdom, will believe nothing but that which is irre- 
fragably proved from rational principles : for as Christ re- 
quires a h denial of a man's self, that he may be able to follow 
him, so as great a part as' any of this denial of his whole self 
(for so it must be) is the denial of his understanding, and 
the composing of the unquiet search of this grand inquisitor 
into the secrets of him that made it, and the overruling the 
doubtfulness of it by the fervency of the ' will. 

f S. August, cont. Faust, lib. xxvi. Licet enim admirabile sit dictum, verum 
c. 6. Now no man believes the scrip- tamen, et apud mentem habentes valde 
ture that doth not believe that it is the certuvn, vel in confesso. Ex Homil. 13. 
word of God. I say, which doth not S. Chrysost. in S. Matt. torn. i. edit. 
believe, I do not say, which doth not Fronto. Paris. 1636. 
know. Oportet quod credatur author!- S And this is the ground of that 
tati eorum quibus revelatio facta est. which I said before, sect. 15. num. i, 
Thorn, p. i. q. i. A. 8. ad secundum. that the scripture only, and not any 
"On Se i|/v%V ^X M 6l/ & c - Q llf >d vero unwritten tradition, was the foundatio 1 . 
animam habemus, unde manifestum ? of our faith, namely, when the author- 
Si enim visibilibus credere velis, et de ity of scripture is first yielded unto. 
Deo, et de angelis, et de mente, et de h Luke ix. 23. 

anima dubitatis : et sic tibi omnia veri- i Intellectus credentis determinatur 

tatis dogmata deperibunt. Et certe si per voluntatem, non per rationem. 

manifestis credere velis, invisibilibus ma- Thorn. 2. 2. q. 2. A. i. ad tertiurn. 

gis quam visibilibus credere oportet. And what power the will hath in case 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


Seventhly, That the knowledge of the Supreme Cause of Sect. 16. 
all (which is God) is most remote, and the most difficult Punct ' 7 * 
thing reason can have to do with. The quod sit, that there 
is a God, J blear-eyed reason can see ; but the k quid sit, what 
that God is, is infinitely beyond all the fathoms of reason. 
He is a light indeed, ! but so as no man's reason can come at 
for the brightness. If any thing therefore be attainable in 
this kind, it must be by m revelation ; and that must be from 
himself : for none can reveal but n he that comprehends, and 
none doth or can comprehend God but himself: and when 
he doth reveal, yet he is no further discernible than P himself 
pleases. Now since treason teaches that the soul of man is 
immortal, and r capable of felicity ; and since that felicity con- 

of men's believing or not believing, is 
manifest, Jer. xliv.; but this is spoken 
of the will compared with the under- 
standing only, leaving the operations of 
grace free over both. 

j Communis enim sententia est pa- 
tram et theologorum aliorum, demon- 
strari posse naturali ratione Deum esse ; 
sed a posteriori et per effectus. Sic 
Thorn, p. i. q. 2. A. 2. et Damasc. 
Orth. Fid. lib. i. c. 3. et Almain. in 3. 
Sent. D. 24. q. J. But what may be 
demonstrated by natural reason, by na- 
tural light may the same be known. 
And so the apostle himself, Rom. i. 20. 
Invisibilia Dei a creatura mundi per ea 
quee facto, sunt, intellecta conspiciuntur. 
And so Calvin most clearly, Instit. lib. i. 
c. 5. . i, Apei-ire oculos nequeunt, quin 
aspicere eum coguntur; though Bellar- 
mine would needs be girding at him, 
De Grat. lib. iv. et Lib. Arbit. cap. 2, 
Videtur autem et ratio iis quae apparent 
attestari : omnes enim homines de diis 
(ut ille loquitur) habent existimationem. 
Arist. de Coelo, lib. i t. 22. 

k Damasc, Orth. Fid. lib. i. c. 4. 

1 i Tim. vi. 1 6. Et ne vestigium sic 
accedendi relinquit, nisi augeas imagi- 
natione cogitationis lucem solis innurne- 
rabiliter vel quid aliud, &c. S. August. 
De Trin. lib. viii. c. 2. Solus modus 
accedendi preces sunt. Boeth. de Con- 
solat. Philos. lib v. prosa 3. 

m Praeter scientias philosophicas ne- 
cesse est, ut ponatur alia scientia divi- 
nitus revelata de iis quae hominis cap- 
turn excedunt. Thorn, p. i. q. i. A. i. 

n And therefore Biel is express, that 
God could not reveal any thing that is 
to come, nisi illud esset a Deo praesci- 
tum seu praevisum, (i. e. unless God did 

fully comprehend that which he doth 
reveal.) Biel. in 3. Sent. D. 23. q. 2. 
A. i. 

o Nullus intellectus creatus videndo 
Deum potest cognoscere omnia quae 
Deus facit, vel potest facere : hoc enim 
esset comprehendere ejus virtutem, &c. 
Thorn, p. i. q. 12. A. 8. C. 

Ad argumentum, Quod Deus ut 
speculum est, et Quod omnia quse fieri 
possunt in eo resplendent, respondet 
Thorn., Quod non est necessarium, quod 
videns speculum, omnia in speculo vi- 
deat, nisi speculum visu suo compre- 
hendat. Thorn, p. i. q. 12. A. 8. ad 2. 
(Now no man can comprehend this 
glass, which is God himself.) 

P Deus enim est speculum volunta- 
rium revelans quae et quot vult alicui 
beato : non est speculum naturaliter 
repraesentans omnia. Biel. Suppl. in 4. 
Sent. D. 49. q. 3. propos. 3. 

<1 For if reason well put to its search 
did riot find this out, how came Ari- 
stotle to affirm this by rational disqui- 
sition, Ae/rerot 5e rbv vovv^ &c. Re- 
stat, ut mens sola extrinsecus accedat, 
eaque sola divina sit; nihil enim cum 
ejus actione communicat actio corpora- 
lis ? Arist. de Gen. Anim. lib. ii. c. 3. 
This cannot be spoken of the soul, were 
it mortal : and therefore I must needs 
be of Paulus Benius his opinion, who 
says plainly, and proves it too, Turpiter 
affixam a quibusdam Aristoteli mortali- 
tatis animae opinionem. Benius in Ti- 
maeum Platonis, Decad. 2ae. lib. iii. 

r For if reason did not dictate this also, 
whence is it that Aristotle disputes of the 
way and means of attaining it, Moral. 
1. i. c. 9, and takes on him to prove that 
felicity is rather an honourable than a 

92 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. sists in the contemplation of the highest Cause, which again 
is God himself ; and since Christ therein confirms that dictate, 
that man^s eternal happiness is s to know God and him whom 
he hath sent ; and since nothing can put us into the way of 
attaining to that contemplation but some revelation of him- 
self, and of the way to himself; I say, since all this is so, it 
cannot reasonably be thought by any prudent man, that the 
all-wise God should create man with a desire of felicity, and 
then leave him utterly destitute of all instrumental helps to 
make the attainment possible : since * God and nature do 
nothing but for an end ; and help there can be none sufficient 
but by revelation. And once grant me that revelation is 
necessary, and then I will appeal to reason itself, and that 
shall prove abundantly one of these two ; that either there 
was never any such revelation of this kind from the world^s 
beginning to this day ; and that will put the frustra upon 
God in point of man's felicity or, that the scriptures which 
we now embrace as the word of God is that revelation ; and 
that is it we Christians labour to make good against all 
atheism, profaneness, and infidelity. 

Punct. 8. Last of all ; To prove that the book of God which we 
honour as his word is this necessary revelation of God and 
his truth, which must and is alone able to lead us in the way 
to our eternal blessedness, (or else the world hath none,) 
comes in a cloud of witnesses ; some for the infidel, and some 
for the believer, some for the weak in faith, and some for 
the strong, and some for all : for then first comes in the 
tradition of the church, the present church ; so it is no here- 
tical or schismatical belief: then the testimony of former 
ages ; so it is no new belief : then the consent of times ; so 
it is no divided or partial belief: then the harmony of the 
prophets, and them fulfilled ; so it is not a "devised, but a 
forespoken belief: then the success of the doctrine contained 

commendable thing? c. 12. And after modum addiscentis a Deo doctore: Om- 

all this he adds, Deo beata tota vita est, nis qui audit a Patre et didicit, Joh. 

hominibus autem eatenus quatenus si- vi. 45. Thorn. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 3. in C. 
militudo quaedarn ejusmodi operationis t Dens et natura nihil frustra faciunt. 

ipsis inest. Moral, lib. x. c. 8. Arist. de Coelo, lib. i. t. 32. Frustra 

s John xvii. 3. Ultima beatitudo ho- autem est quod non potest habere siium 

minis corisistit in quadarn supernatural! usum. Thorn, ibid, 
visione Dei. Ad hanc autem visionem u 2 Pet. i. 16. 
homo pertingere non potest, nisi per 

Fisher the Jesuit. 93 

in this book; so it is not a belief stifled in the cradle, but Sect. 16. 
it hath spread through the world in despite of what the world 
could do against it, and increased from weak and unlikely 
beginnings to incredible greatness : then the constancy of 
this truth ; so it is no moon-belief, for in the midst of the 
world's changes it hath preserved its creed entire through 
many generations : then, that there is nothing carnal in the 
doctrine; so it is a chaste belief; and all along it hath 
gained, kept, and exercised more power upon the minds of 
men, both learned and unlearned, in the increase of virtue 
and repression of vice, than any moral philosophy or legal 
policy that ever was : then comes the inward light and excel- 
lency of the text itself; and so it is no dark or dazzling 
belief. And it is an excellent text : for see the riches of 
natural knowledge which are stored up there, as well as 
supernatural: consider how things quite above reason con- 
sent with things reasonable : weigh it well, what majesty lies 
there hid under humility ! what depth there is, with a per- 
spicuity unimitable ! what x delight it works in the soul that 
is devoutly exercised in it ! how the ^sublimest wits find in 
it enough to amaze them, while the z simplest want not enough 
to direct them ! and then we shall not wonder if (with the 
assistance of a God's Spirit, who alone works faith and belief 
of the scriptures and their divine authority, as well as other 
articles) we grow up into a most infallible assurance, such 
an assurance as hath made many lay down their lives for this 
truth ; such as that, b though an angel from heaven should 
preach unto us another gospel, we would not believe him or it ; 
no, though we should see as great and as many miracles done 
over again to dissuade us from it as were at first to win the 
world to it. To which firmness of assent, by the operation 

x Quasi quidam fluvius est, planus, Eccl. Cath. c. 17. Sed nihil sub spiri- 

et altus, in quo et agnus ambulet, et tuali sensu continetur fidei neeessarium, 

elephas natet. S. Greg. Praefat. in Lib. quod vscriptura per literalem seusum 

Moralium, c. 4. alicubi manifesto non tradat. Thorn. 

Y In lege Domini voluntas ejus. Psal. p. t . q. i. A. 10. ad I. 
i. 2 Dulcior super mel et favum. Psal. a Credimus, &c. sicut ob alia multa 

xviii. ii. et passim. certiora argumenta (quam est testimo- 

z Multa dicuntur submissis et humi nium ecclesiae) turn propter hoc potissi- 

repentibus animis, ut accommodatius mum, quod Spiritus Sanctus nobis intus 

perhumanain divina consurgant. Multa has esse Dei voces persuadeat. Whitak. 

etiam ngurate, ut sttidiosa mens, et Disput. de Sacr. Script. Controv. I. 

quaesitis exerceatur utilius et uberius q. 3. c. 8. 
leetetur inventis. S. August, de Mor. b Gal. i. 8. 

94 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 6. of God's Spirit, the will confers as much or more strength 
than the understanding clearness ; the whole assent being an 
act of faith, and not of knowledge. And therefore the ques- 
tion should not have been asked of me by J-., how I knew, 
but upon what motives I did believe scripture to be the word 
of God ? And I would have him take heed lest, hunting too 
close after a way of knowledge, he lose the way of faith, and 
teach other men to lose it too. 

Punct. 9. So then the way lies thus (as far as it appears to me) ; 
The credit of scripture to be divine resolves finally into that 
faith which we have touching God himself, and in the same 
order. For as that, so this hath three main grounds, to 
which all other are reducible. The first is, the tradition of 
the church; and this leads us to a reverend persuasion of it. 
The second is, the light of nature ; and this shews us how 
necessary such a revealed learning is, and that no other way 
it can be had ; c nay more, that all proofs brought against 
any point of faith neither are nor can be demonstrations, but 
soluble arguments. The third is, the light of the text itself, 
in conversing wherewith we meet with the d Spirit of God 
inwardly inclining our hearts, and sealing the full assurance 
of the sufficiency of all three unto us. And then, and not 
before, we are certain that the scripture is the word of God, 
both by divine and by infallible proof: but our certainty is 
by faith, and so voluntary, not by knowledge of such prin- 
ciples as in the light of nature can enforce assent whether 
we will or no. 

I have said thus much upon this great occasion, because 
this argument is so much pressed without due respect to 
scripture. And I have proceeded in a synthetical way to 
build up the truth for the benefit of the church and the satis- 
faction of all men Christianly disposed : whereas, had I 
desired only to rid my hand of these captious Jesuits, (for 
certainly this question was captiously asked,) it had been 
sufficient to have restored the question thus; How do you 
know the testimony of the church (by which you say you 

c Cum fides infallibili veritati innita- sed solubilia argumenta. Thorn, p. i . 

tur ; et ideo cum impossibile sit de vero q. i . A . 8. C. 

demonstrari contrarium ; sequitur om- d Fidei ultima resolutio est in Deum 

nes probationes quse contra fidem indu- illuminantem. S. August, cont. Fund, 

cuntur, non posse esse demonstration's, c. 14. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 95 

know scripture to be the word of God) to be divine and Sect. 16,17. 
infallible ? If they prove it by scripture (as all of them do, 
and as A. C. doth), how do they know that scripture to be A. c. p. 53. 
scripture? It is but a circular assurance of theirs, by which num^s' 16 * 
they found the church's infallibility upon the testimony of the 
scripture, and the scripture's infallibility upon the testimony 
of the church ; that is, upon the matter, the church's infalli- 
bility upon the church's infallibility. But I labour for edifi- 
cation, not for destruction. And now, by what I have here 
said, I will weigh my answer, and his exception taken 
against it. 

Jp. The bishop said that the books of scripture are prin- 
ciples to be supposed, and needed not to be proved. 

IK Why, but did I say that this principle the books of Sect. 17. 
scripture are the word of God is to be supposed, as needing 
no proof at all to a natural man, or to a man newly entering 
upon the faith ? yea, or perhaps to a doubter or weakling in 
the faith? Can you think me so weak? It seems you do. 
But sure I know there is a great deal of difference between 
ethnics, that deny and deride the scripture, and men that 
are born in the church : the first have a further way about 
to this principle ; the other in their very Christian education 
suck it in, and are taught, so soon as they are apt to learn 
it, that the books commonly called " the Bible," or " scrip- 
ture," are the word of God. And I dealt with you e as with 
a Christian, though in error, while you call catholic. The 
words before spoken by me were, " That the scripture only, 
not any unwritten tradition, was the foundation of faith." 
The question between us and you is, Whether the scripture 
do contain all necessary things of faith. Now in this ques- 
tion, as in all nature and art, the subject, the scripture, is 
and must be f supposed. The quaere between the Roman 
catholics and the church of England being only of the predi- 
cate, the thing uttered of it, namely, whether it contain all 
fundamentals of faith, all necessaries for salvation within it. 

e Dixi sicut ei congrnebat ad quern principle among Christians : Quod a 

scribebam. S. August. Retract, lib. i. scrip tura evidenter deducitur est evi- 

c. 13. denter verum, suppositis scripturis. Bel- 

f Nor is it such a strange thing to larm. de Eccl. Milit. lib. iv. c. 3. . 3. 
hear that scripture is such a supposed 

96 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 1 7, 1 8. Now since the question proposed in very form of art proves 
not but s supposes the subject, I think I gave a satisfying 
answer that to you and me, and in this question, scripture 
was a supposed principle and needed no proof. And I must 
tell you, that in this question of the scripture^s perfect con- 
tinent, it is against all art, yea, and equity too, in reasoning, 
to call for a proof of that here which must go unavoidably 
supposed in this question ; and if any man will be so familiar 
with impiety to question it, it must be tried in a preceding 
question and dispute by itself: yet here not you only, but 
h Bellarmine and others, run quite out of the way to snatch 
at advantage. 

. Against this I read what I had formerly written in my 
reply against Mr. John White ; wherein I plainly shewed 
that this answer was not good, and that no other answer 
could be made, but by admitting some word of God 
unwritten to assure us of this point. 

Sect. 1 8. 23. I. Indeed, here you read out of a book (which you 
called your own) a large discourse upon this argument. But 
surely I so untied the knot of the argument, that I set you 
to your book again; for yourself confess that against this 
you read what you had formerly written. Well, whatever 
you read there, certain it is you do a great deal of wrong to 
'Mr. Hooker and myself, that because we call it a supposed 
or presumed principle among Christians, you should fall by 
and by into such a k metaphysical discourse, to prove that 
that which is a \prcecognitum, foreknown in science, must be 
of such light that it must be known of and by itself alone, 

g De subjecto enim quaeritur semper, Neque enim disputari potest, nisi prius 

non subjectum ipsum. in aliquo communi principio cum ad- 

h De Verb. Dei, lib. iv. 0.4. . Quarto versariis conveniamus. Convenit autem 

necesse est. And the Jesuit here apud inter nos et omnes omiiino haereticos, 

A. C. p. 49. verbum Dei esse regulam fidei, ex qua 

i Eccles. Pol. b. iii. . 8. de dogmatibus judicandum sit, esse 

k Whereas Bellarmirie says expressly commune principium ab omnibus con- 
that in the controversies between you cessum, unde argumenta ducantur, &c. 
and us, non agitur de metaphysicis Bellarm. Praefat. Operibus praefix. . ult. 
subtilitatibus, quae sine periculo igno- And if it be " commune principium ab 
rari, et interdum cum laude oppugnari omnibus concessum," then I hope it 
possunt, &c. Praefat. Operibus praefix. must be taken as a thing supposed, or 
. 3. as a praecognitum in this dispute be- 

1 His omnibus qusestionibus prjemit- tween us. 
tenda est controversia de verbo Dei. 

FisJier the Jesuit. 97 

and that the scripture cannot be so known to be the word Sect. 18. 
of God. 

II. I will not now enter again into that discourse, having 
said enough already, how far the beam, which is very glorious 
(especially in some parts of scripture), gives light to prove 
itself. You see, neither Hooker, nor I, nor the church of 
England (for aught I know), leave the scripture alone to 
manifest itself by the light which it hath in itself: no; but 
when the present church hath prepared and led the way, like 
a preparing morning light, to sunshine, then indeed we settle 
for our direction, yet not upon the first opening of the morn- 
ing light, but upon the sun itself. Nor will I make needless 
inquiry how far and in what manner a prcecognitum, or sup- 
posed principle in any science, may be proved in a higher, to 
which that is subordinate, or accepted for a prime ; nor how 
it may in divinity, where prce as well as postcognita, things 
fore as well as after-known, are matters, and under the man- 
ner of faith, and not of science strictly ; nor whether a prce- 
cognitum, a presupposed principle in faith, which rests upon 
divine authority, must needs have as much and equal light to 
natural reason, as prime principles have in nature, while they 
rest upon reason; nor whether it may justly be denied to 
have sufficient light, because not equal. Your own school 
m grants, " That in us, which are the subjects both of faith 
and knowledge, and in regard of the evidence given in unto 
us, there is less light, less evidence in the principles of faith, 
than in the principles of knowledge, upon which there can be 
no doubt. 11 But I think the school will never grant that the 
principles of faith (even this in question) have not sufficient 
evidence. And you ought not to do as you did, without any 
distinction or any limitation, deny a prcecognitum, or prime 
principle in the faith, because it answers not in all things to 
the prime principles in science in their light and evidence; 
a thing in itself directly against reason. 

III. Well, though I do none of this, yet first I must tell 
you that A. C. here steps in again, and tells me, " That 
though a prcecognitum in faith need not be so clearly known 

m Colligitur aperte ex Thorn, p. i. absolute. Bellarm. de Eccles. Mil. lib. ir. 
q. i. A. . ad i. Et articulorum lidei c. 3. . 3. 
veritas non potest nobis esse evidens 


98 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 18. as a prcecognitum in science, yet there must be this proportion 
between them, that whether it be in science or in faith, the 
prcecognitum, or thing supposed as known, must be prius 
cognitum, first known, and not need another thing pertaining 
to that faith or knowledge to be known before it. But the 
scripture," saith he, "needs tradition to go before it, and 
introduce the knowledge of it : therefore the scripture is not 
to be supposed as a prcecognitum, and a thing foreknown." 
Truly I am sorry to see in a man very learned such wilful 
mistakes. For A. C. cannot but perceive, by that which I 
have clearly laid down "before, that I intended not to speak 
precisely of a prcecognitum in this argument : but when I said 
scriptures were principles to be supposed, I did not, I could 
not intend they were prius cognitce, known before tradition, 
since I confess everywhere that tradition introduces the 
knowledge of them. But my meaning is plain that the 
scriptures are and must be principles supposed, before you 
can dispute this question, Whether the scriptures contain in 
them all things necessary to salvation. Before which ques- 
tion it must necessarily be supposed and granted on both 
sides that the scriptures are the word of God ; for if they be 
not, it is instantly out of all question that they cannot include 
all necessaries to salvation. So it is a prcecognitum, not to 
tradition, (as A. C. would cunningly put upon the cause,) but 
to the whole question of the scriptures' sufficiency. And yet 
if he could tie me to a prcecognitum in this very question, and 
provable in a superior science, I think I shall go very near 
to prove it in the next paragraph, and entreat A. C. to con- 
fess it too. 

IV. And now having told A. C. this, I must secondly 
follow him a little further : for I would fain make it appear, 
as plainly as in such a difficulty it can be made, what wrong 
he doth truth and himself in this case. And it is the com- 

Sect. 17 and 18. num. II. of faith, if it contain not all things ne- 

o And my immediate words in the cessary to salvation ; which the church 

conference, upon which the Jesuit asked of Rome denying against all antiquity, 

how I knew scripture to be scripture, makes it now become a question. And 

were, (as the Jesuit himself relates it, in regard of this my answer was, " That 

apud A. C. p. 48,) " That the scripture the scriptures are and must be princi- 

only, not any unwritten tradition, was pies supposed, and pr&cognita, before 

the foundation of our faith." Now the the handling of this question." 
scripture cannot be the only foundation 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


mon fault of them all: for when the protestants answer to Sect. 18. 
this argument, (which, as I have shewed, can properly have 
no place in the question between us about tradition,) Pthey 
which grant this as a prcecognitum, a thing foreknown, as also 
I do, were neither ignorant nor forgetful, that things pre- 
supposed, as already known in a science, are of two sorts ; 
"for either they are plain and fully manifest in their own 
light, or they are proved and granted already, some former 
knowledge having made them evident." This principle then 
the scriptures are the oracles of God we cannot say is clear 
and fully manifest to all men simply and in self-light, for the 
reasons before given: yet we say, after tradition hath been 
our introduction, the soul that hath but ordinary grace added 
to reason may discern light sufficient to resolve our faith that 
the sun is there. This principle then, being not absolutely 
and simply evident in itself, is presumed to be taught us 
otherwise ; and if otherwise, then it must be taught in and 
by some superior science to which theology is subordinate. 
Now men may be apt to think, out of reverence, that divinity 
can have no science above it ; but your own school teaches 
me that it hath : " q The sacred doctrine of divinity in this 
sort is a science, because it proceeds out of principles that 
are known by the light of a superior knowledge, which is the 

P Hooker, Eccles. Pol. l>. iii. . 8. 

q Hoc modo sacra doctrina est scien- 
tia ; quia procedit ex principiis notis 
lumine superioris scientite, quae scilicet 
est scientia Dei et beatorura. Thorn, 
p. i. q. i. A. 2 And what says A. C. 
now to this of Aquinas ? Is it not clear 
in him that this principle the scrip- 
tures are the word of God, of divine 
and most infallible credit is a pr&cog- 
nitum in the knowledge of divinity, 
and provable in a superior science, 
namely, the knowledge of God and the 
blessed in heaven ? Yes, so clear that 
(as I told you he would) A. C. confesses 
it, p. 51 : but he adds, " That because 
no man ordinarily sees this proof, there- 
fore we must go either to Christ, who 
saw it clearly, or to the apostles, to 
whom it was clearly revealed, or to 
them who by succession received it from 
the prime seers." So now, because 
Christ is ascended, and the apostles 
gone into the number of the blessed, 
and made in a higher degree partakers 

of their knowledge, therefore we must 
now only go unto their successors, and 
borrow light from the tradition of the 
present church : for that we must do, 
and it is so far well. But that we 
must rely upon this tradition as divine 
and infallible, arid able to breed in us 
divine and infallible faith, as A. C. adds, 
p. 51, 52, is a proposition which in the 
times of the primitive church would 
have been accounted very dangerous, 
as indeed it is. For I would fain know 
why leaning too much upon tradition 
may not mislead Christians as well as 
it did tbe Jews. But they, saith St. 
Hilary, traditionis favore legis prae- 
cepta transgressi sunt. Can. 14. in S. 
Matt. Yet to this height are they of 
Rome now grown, that the traditions 
of the present church are infallible, and 
by outfacing the truth lead many after 
them; and as it is Jer. v. 31, The pro- 
phets prophesy untruths, and the priests 
receive gifts; and my people delight there- 
in: what will become of this in the end? 

H 2 

100 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 18. knowledge of God 'and the blessed in heaven." In this supe- 
rior science, this principle the scriptures are the oracles* of 
God is more than evident in full light. This superior science 
delivered this principle in full revealed light to the prophets 
and apostles : r this infallible light of this principle made their 
authority derivatively divine. By the same divine authority 
they wrote and delivered the scripture to the church : there- 
fore from them immediately the church received the scrip- 
ture, and that uncorrupt, though not in the same clearness 
of light which they had. And yet since no sufficient reason 
hath or can be given that in any substantial thing it hath 
been s corrupted, it remains firm at this day, and that proved 
in the most supreme science ; and therefore now to be sup- 
posed (at least by all Christians), that the scripture is the 
word of God. So my answer is good, even in strictness, That 
this principle is to be supposed in this dispute. 

V. Besides, the Jews never had nor can have any other 
proof that the Old Testament is the word of God than we 
have of the New ; for theirs was delivered by Moses and the 
prophets, and ours was delivered by the apostles, which were 
prophets too. The Jews did believe their scripture by a 
divine authority : for so the Jews argue themselves ; * We 
Jcnow tJmt God spake with Moses; u and that " therefore they 
could no more err in following Moses than they could in 
following God himself." And our Saviour seems to infer as 
much St. John v., where he expostulates with the Jews thus : 
*If you believe not Moses his writings, how should you believe 
me ? Now how did the Jews know that God spake to Moses I 
How ! Why apparently the same way that is before set down. 
First, by tradition. So >'St. Chrysostom : " We know why: 
By whose witness do you know ? By the testimony of our 

r Non creditnr Deus esse author hu- lingua, sed multis continetur scriptura. 

jus scientiae, quia homines hoc testati Nonnullae autem codicum mendositates, 

sunt in quantum homines nudo testimo- vel de antiquioribus, vel de lingua prae- 

nio humano ; sed in quantum circa eos cedente emendantur. S. August, cont. 

effulsit virtus divina. Et ita Deus iis, Faust, lib. xxxii. c. 16. 

et sibi ipsi in eis testimonium perhi- t John ix. 29. 

buit. Hen. a Gand. Sum. p. i. q. 3. u Itaque non magis errare posse eum 

A. 9. sequentes, quam si Deum ipsum seque- 

s Corrumpi non possunt, quia in ma- rentur. Maldon. in S. Joh. ix. 

nibus sunt omnium Christianorum ; et x John v. 47. 

quisquis hoc primitus ausus esset, mul- y Horn. 57. in S. Joh. 9. TJ/J.C'IS offia- 

torum codicum vetustiorum collatione /AW vivos flirovros ; ruv Trpoy6vci)v <pa.<rl 

confutaretur. Maxime, quia non una r&v ynsTepuv. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 101 

ancestors. 1 ' But he speaks not of their immediate ancestors, Sect. 18,19. 
but their prime, which were prophets, and whose testimony 
was divine ; into which (namely, their writings) the Jews did 
resolve their faith. And even that scripture of the Old 
Testament was a z light, and a shining light too ; and there- 
fore could not but be sufficient when tradition had gone 
before. And yet though the Jews entered this way to their 
belief of the scripture, they do not say a Audivimus, We have 
heard that God spake to Moses, but, We know it. So they 
resolved their faith higher, and into a more inward principle, 
than an ear to their immediate ancestors and their tradition. 
And I would willingly learn of you, if you can shew it me, 
where ever any one Jew, disputing with another about their 
law, did put the other to prove that the Old Testament was 
the word of God. But they still supposed it; and when 
others put them to their proof, this way they went. And 
yet you say, 

Jj% That no other answer could be made but by admitting 
some word of God unwritten to assure us of this point. 

33. I. I think I have shewed that my answer is good, and Sect. 19. 
that no other answer need be made. If there were need, I 
make no question but another answer might be made to 
assure us of this point, though we did not admit of any word 
of God unwritten ; I say, to assure us, and you express no 
more. If you had said, to assure us by divine faith, your 
argument had been the stronger : but if you speak of assur- 
ance only in the general, I must then tell you (and it is the 
great advantage which the church of Christ hath against 
infidels) a man may be assured, nay, infallibly assured, by 
ecclesiastical and human proof. Men that never saw Rome 
may be sure and infallibly believe that such a city there is, 
by historical and acquired faith: and if consent of human 
story can assure me this, why should not consent of church 
story assure me the other that Christ and his apostles deli- 
vered this body of scripture as the oracles of God ? For Jews, 
enemies to Christ, they bear witness to the Old Testament ; 

z 2 Pet. i. 19. ffaav, 'H/Ae?s ^Kovffa/J.v y &c. dAA.o ori 

a S. Chrysost. ubi supra: :ai ovic oV5a/j.ev. 

102 Arclibishop Laud against 

Sect. 19. and Christians through almost all nations b give in evidence 
to both Old and New : and no pagan, or other enemies of 
Christianity, can give such a worthy and consenting testi- 
mony for any authority upon which they rely, or almost for 
any principle which they have, as the scripture hath gained 
to itself: and as is the testimony which it receives above all 
c writings of all nations, so here is assurance in a great mea- 
sure, without any divine authority in a word written or un- 
written. A great assurance, and it is infallible too ; only 
then we must distinguish infallibility. For, first, a thing may 
be presented as an infallible object of belief, when it is true, 
and remains so ; for truth qua talis, as it is truth, cannot 
deceive. Secondly, a thing is said to be infallible, when it is 
not only true and remains so actually, but when it is of such 
invariable constancy, and upon such ground, as that no degree 
of falsehood at any time, in any respect, can fall upon it. 
Certain it is, that by human authority, consent, and proof, a 
man may be assured infallibly that the scripture is the word 
of God by an acquired habit of faith, cui non subest falsum^ 
under which nor error nor falsehood is ; but he cannot be 
assured infallibly by divine faith, d cui subesse non potest falsum, 
into which no falsehood can come, but by a divine testimony : 
this testimony is absolute in scripture itself, delivered by the 
apostles for the word of God, and so sealed to our souls by 
the operation of the Holy Ghost. That which makes way 
for this, as an e introduction and outward motive, is the tra- 
dition of the present church ; but that neither simply divine, 
nor sufficient alone, into which we may resolve our faith, but 
only as is f before expressed. 

II. And now to come close to the particular. The time 
was, before this miserable rent in the church of Christ, (which 
I think no true Christian can look upon but with a bleeding 
heart,) that you and we were all of one belief: that belief 

b Tanta hominum et temporum con- c Super omnes omnium gentium lite- 

sensione nrmatum. S. -August, lib. de ras. S August, de Civ. Dei, lib. xi. c. i. 

Mor. Eccles. Cath. c. 29 li libri quo- d Incertum esse non potest hos esse 

quo modo se habent, sancti tamen divi- libros canonicos. Walden. Doct. Fid. 

narum rerum pleni prope totius generis 1. ii. A. 2. c. 20. 

humani conl'essione diffamantur, &c. e Facit ecclesiam causam sine qua 

S. August, de Util. Cred. c. 7. et cont. non. Canus, Loc. 1. ii. c. 8. 

Faust, lib. xiii. c. 15. f Sect. 16. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 103 

was tainted, in tract and corruption of times, very deeply. Sect. 19. 
A division was made, yet so that both parts held the Creed 
and other common principles of belief. Of these this was 
one of the greatest, sThat the scripture is the word of God; 
for our belief of all things contained in it depends upon it. 
Since this division there hath been nothing done by us to 
discredit this principle : nay, we have given it all honour, and 
ascribed unto it more sufficiency, even to the " containing of all 
things necessary to salvation," with h satis superque, enough and 
more than enough ; which yourselves have not done, do not. 
And for begetting and settling a belief of this principle, we 
go the same way with you, and a better besides. The same 
way with you, because we allow the tradition of the present 
church to be the first inducing motive to embrace this prin- 
ciple ; only we cannot go so far in this way as you, to make 
the present tradition always an infallible word of God un- 
written ; for this is to go so far in till you be out of the way. 
For tradition is but a lane in the church ; it hath an end 
not only to receive us in, but another after to let us out into 
more open and richer ground. And we go a better way than 
you, because after we are moved, and prepared, and induced 
by tradition, we resolve our faith into that written word, and 
God delivering it ; in which we find materially, though not 
in terms, the very tradition that led us thither. And so we 
are sure by divine authority that we are in the way, because 
at the end we find the way proved. And do what can be 
done, you can never settle the faith of man about this great 
principle till you rise to greater assurance than the present 
church alone can give. And therefore once again to that 
known place of St. Augustine : 'the words of the Father are 
nisi commoveret, "unless the authority of the church moved 
me :" but not alone, but with other motives ; else it were not 
commovere, to move together: and the other motives are 
resolvers, though this be leader. Now since we go the same 
way with you so far as you go right, and a better way than 
you where you go wrong, we need not admit any other word 

Inter omnes pene constat, aut certe S. August, lib. de Mor. Eccles. Cath. 

id quod satis est, inter me et illos, cum c. 4. 

quibns mine agitur, convenit hoc, &c. h Vin. Lirin. cent. Haeres. c. 2. 
Sic in alia causa cont. JManichaeos. i Contra Epist. Fund. c. 5. 


104 ArMishop Laud against 

Sect. 19, 20. of God than we do. And this ought to remain as a pre- 
supposed principle among all Christians, and not so much 
as come into this question about the sufficiency of scripture 
between you and us. But you say that 

^. From this the lady called us, and desiring to hear 
whether the bishop would grant the Roman church to 
be the right church, the 13. granted that it was. 
Sect. 20. 33. I. One occasion which moved Tertullian to write his 
book de Prescript, adversus Hcereticos, was, that he k saw little 
or no profit come by disputations. Sure the ground was the 
same then and now. It was not to deny that disputation 
is an opening of the understanding, a sifting "out of truth: it 
was not to affirm that any such disquisition is in and of itself 
unprofitable ; if it had, St. Stephen ! would not have disputed 
with the Cyrenians, nor St. Paul m with the Grecians first, 
and then "with the Jews and all comers: no sure, it was 
some abuse in the disputants that frustrated the good of the 
disputation. And one abuse in the disputants is a resolution 
to hold their own, though it be by unworthy means, and 
disparagement of truth. And so I find it here; for as it 
is true that this question was asked, so it is altogether false 
that it was asked in this Pform, or so answered. There is 
a great deal of difference (especially as Romanists handle the 
question of the church) between the church and a church; 
and there is some between a true church and a right church, 
which is the word you use, but no man else that I know; 
I am sure not I. 

II. For the church may import in our language the only 
true church, and perhaps (as some of you seem to make it) 
the root and the ground of the catholic ; and this I never 
did grant of the Roman church, nor ever mean to do. But 
a church can imply no more than that it is a member of the 
whole ; and this I never did nor ever will deny, if it fall not 
absolutely away from Christ. That it is a true church I 

k Pamel. in Summar. Lib. Videns p Here A. C. hath nothing to say, 

disputationibus nihil aut parum protici. but that " the Jesuit did not affirm that 

1 Acts v j. 9. the lady asked this question in this or 

m A cts \ x - 2 9- any other precise form." No ! why, the 

n Acts xix. 17. words preceding are the Jesuit's own; 

Debilitatur generosa indoles con- therefore if these were not the lady's 

jecta in argutias. Sen. Ep. 48. words, he wrongs her, not I him. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 105 

granted also, but not a right (as you impose upon me) : for Sect. 20. 
ens and verum, being and true, are convertible one with 
another ; and every thing that hath a being is truly that 
being which it is, in truth of substance. But this word right 
is not so used, but is referred more properly to perfection in 
conditions; and in this sense every thing that hath a true 
and real being is not by and by right in the conditions of 
it. A man that is most dishonest and unworthy the name, 
a very thief (if you will), is a true man in the verity of his 
essence, as he is a creature endued with reason ; for this 
none can steal from him, nor he from himself, but death ; but 
is not therefore a right, or an upright man. And a church 
that is exceeding corrupt, both in manners and doctrine, and 
so a dishonour to the name, is yet a true church in the 
verity of essence, as a church is a company of men which 
profess the faith of Christ and are baptized into his name ; 
but yet it is not therefore a right church, either in doctrine 
or manners. It may be you meant cunningly to slip in this 
word right, that I might, at unawares, grant it orthodox ; 
but I was not so to be caught : for I know well that ortho- 
dox Christians are keepers of integrity and followers of right 
things, (so q St. Augustine,) of which the church of Eome 
at this day is neither. In this sense then no right, that is, 
no orthodox church at Rome. 

III. And yet no news it is that I granted the Roman church 
to be a true church; for so much very learned protestants 
r have acknowledged before me, and the truth cannot deny 
it. For that church which receives the scripture as a rule 
of faith, though but as a partial and imperfect rule, and both 
the sacraments as instrumental causes and seals of grace, 
though they add more and misuse these, yet cannot but be 
a true church in essence. How it is in manners and doc- 
trine, I would you would look to it with a single eye : ;; s for 

q Integritatis custodes, et recta sec- grant it. Fr. Johnson, in his Treatise 

tantes. De vera Relig. c. 5. called A Christian Plea, printed 1617, 

r Hooker's Eccles. Pol. b. iii. . I. p. 123, &c. 

Jimius L. de Eccl. c. 17. Fallnntur s Si tamen bono ingenio pietas et 

qui ecclesiam negant, quia papatus in pax quaedam mentis accedat, sine qua 

ea est. Reynold. Thes. 5. Negat tan- de sanctis rebus nihil prorsus intelligi 

turn esse catholicam, vel sanum ejus potest. S. August, de Util. Cred. c. 1 8. 
membrum Nay, the very separatists 

106 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 20. if piety and a peaceable mind be not joined to a good under- 
standing, nothing can be known in these great things." 

A. C. p. 53. IV. Here A. C. tells us, " That the Jesuit doth not say 
that the lady asked this question in this or any other precise 
form of words ; but saith, the Jesuit is sure her desire was 
to know of me whether I would grant the Roman church to 
be the right church." And how was the Jesuit sure the 

A. C. p. 54 lady desired to hear this from me ? Why, A. C. tells us 
that too ; for he adds, " That the Jesuit had particularly 
spoken with her before, and wished her to insist upon that 
point." Where you may see, and it is fit the clergy of 
England should consider with what cunning adversaries they 
have to deal, who can find a way to * prepare their disciples, 
and instruct them beforehand upon what points to insist, 
that so they may with more ease slide that into their hearts 
and consciences which should never come there. And this 
once known I hope they will the better provide against it. 

A. C. p. 54. But A. C. goes on and tells us, " That certainly, by my 
answer, the lady's desire must needs be to hear from me, 
not whether the church of Borne were a right church, See., 
but whether I would grant that there is but one holy catholic 
church, and whether the Roman church (that is, not only 
that which is in the city or diocess of Rome, but all that 
agreed with it) be not it." About a church and the church 
I have said enough u before, and shall not repeat. Nor is 
there any need I should. For A. C. would have it the 
church, the one holy catholic church. But this cannot be 
granted, take the Roman church in what sense they please, 
in city or diocess, or all that agree with it. Yet howsoever, 
before I leave this, I must acquaint the reader with a perfect 
Jesuitism. In all the primitive times of the church, a man, 
or a family, or a national church, were accounted right and 
orthodox as they agreed with the catholic church ; but the 
catholic was never then measured or judged by man, family, 
or nation. But now in the Jesuits' new school, the one holy 

t And after A. C. saith again, p. 54, too, that whatever we say (unless we 

" That the lady did not ask the ques- grant what they would have) their pros- 

tion as if she meant to he satisfied elytes shall not he satisfied with it. 

with hearing what I said." So belike "u Sect. 20. num. I. 
they take caution beforehand for that 

Fisher the Jesuit. 107 

x catholic church must be measured by that which is in the Sect. 20. 
city or diocess of Rome, or of them which agreed with it, 
and not Rome by the catholic. For so A. C. says expressly : 
" The lady would know of me, not whether that were the 
catholic church to which Rome agreed, but whether that 
were not the holy catholic church which agreed with Rome." 
So upon the matter, belike the Christian faith was committed 
to the custody of the Roman, not of the catholic church ; and 
a man cannot agree with the catholic church of Christ (in 
this new doctrine of A. C.) unless he agree with the church 
of Rome : but if he agree with that, all is safe, and he is as 
orthodox as he need be. 

V. But A. C. is yet troubled about the form of the lady's 
question. And he will not have it " that she desired to 
know whether I would grant the Roman church to be the 
right church ;" though these be her words according to the 
Jesuit's own setting down ; but he thinks the question was, 
" Whether the church of Rome was not the right church :" A. C. p. 54. 
not " be not," but " was not." Was not, that is, " was not 
once, or in time past, the right church, before Luther and 
others made a breach from it." Why truly A. C. needed 
not have troubled himself half so much about this. For let 
him take his choice. It shall be all one to me, whether the 
question were asked by be or by ivas ; for the church of 
Rome neither is nor was the right church, as the lady de- 
sired to hear. A particular church it is and was, and in 
some times right, and in some times wrong ; and then in 
some things right, and in some things wrong : but the right 
church, or the holy catholic church, it never was, nor ever 
can be ; and therefore was not such before Luther and 
others either left it or were thrust from it. A particular 
church it was : but then A. C. is not distinct enough here 

x And though Stapleton, to magnify employed his legates, Caldonius and 

the church of Rome, is pleased to say, Fortunatus, not to bring the catholic 

Apud veteres pro eodem habita fuit church to the communion of Rome, but 

ecclesia Romana et ecclesia catholica ; Rome to the catholic church : EJabora- 

yet he is so modest as to give this rea- rent, ut ad catholic* ecclesiae unitatem 

son of it ; Quia ejus communio erat scissi corporis membra componerent, &c. 

evidenter et certissime cum tota catho- Now the members of this rent and torn 

lica. Relect. Cont. i. q. 5. A. 3. (Lo, body were they of Rome, then in an 

the communion of the Roman was then open schism between Cornelius and 

with the catholic church ; not of the Novatian. S. Cyprian, lib. ii. epist. 10. 
catholic with it !) And St. Cyprian 

108 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect/2o. neither; for the church of Borne both was and was not a 
right or orthodox church before Luther made a breach from 
it. For the word ante, before, may look upon Eome and 
that church a great way off, or long before ; and then in the 
prime times of it it was a most right and orthodox church : 
but it may look also nearer home, and upon the immediate 
times before Luther, or some ages before that ; and then in 
those times yRome was a corrupt and a tainted church, far 
from being right; and yet both these times were before 
Luther made his breach. So here A. C. should have been 
more distinct. For the word before includes the whole time 
before Luther ; in part of which time that church of Eome 
was right, and in other part whereof it was wrong. But 
2 A. C. adds yet, " That I suspected the lady would infer, if 
once that church were right, what hindered it now to be, 
since that did not depart from the protestant church, but 
the protestant church from it f Truly, I neither suspected 
the inference would be made, nor fear it when it is made ; for 
it is no news that any particular church, Roman as well as 
another, may once have been right and afterwards wrong, 
and in far worse case : and so it was in Rome after the 
a enemy had sowed tares among the wheat. But whether these 
tares were sown while their bishops slept, or whether b they 

y Cum infiniti abusus, schismata in that church should speak thus, if he 

quoque et haereses per totum nuric did not see some errors in the doctrine 

Christianum orbem invalescant, eccle- of that church as well as in manners, 

siam Dei legitima indigere reformatione Nay, Cassander, though he lived and 

nemini non apertum erit. Pet. de died in the communion of the church 

Aliaco Card. Cameracensis L. de Re- of Rome, yet found fault with some of 

form. Ecclesiae. And if schisms and her doctrines. Consult. Artie. 21 et 

heresies did then invade the whole 22. And Pope Julius III. professed 

Christian world, let A. C. consider how at Bononia, In sacramentorum ecclesiae 

Rome escaped free. And I think Ca- ministerium innumerabiles abusus ir- 

meracensis was in this prophetical ; for repsisse. Espencaeus in Tit. i . And 

sixty years and more before Luther yet he was one of the bishops, nay, the 

was born, and so before the great trou- chief legate in the council of Trent, 
bles which have since fallen upon all z A. C. p. 54. 
Christendom, he used these words in a Matth. xfii. 25. 
the book which himself delivered np b For A. C. knows well what strange 

in the council of Constance : Nisi cele- doctrines are charged upon some popes : 

riter fiat reformatio, audeo dicere quod and all Bellarmine's labour, though 

licet magna sint, quae videmus, tamen great and full of art, is not able to 

in brevi incomparabiliter majora vide- wash them clean. Bellarm. lib. iv. de 

bimus. Et post ista tonitrua tarn hoi-- Rom. Pont. c. 8, &c. Et papas quos- 

renda, majora alia audiemus,&c. Camer. dam graves errores seminasse in ecclesia 

L. de Reform. Eccles. And it will hardly Christi luce clarius est. Et probatur a 

sink into any man's judgment, that so Jacob. Almain. Opusc. de Author. Ec- 

great a man as Petrus de Aliaco was clesiee, c. 10. Arid Cassander speaks 

Fisher the Jesuit. 109 

themselves did not help to sow them, is too large a disquisi-Sect.2o,si. 
tion for this place. So though it were once right, yet the 
tares which grow thick in it are the cause why it is not so 
now. And then, though that church did not depart from 
the protestants' church, yet if it gave great and just cause 
for the protestant church to depart from the errors of it, 
while it in some particulars departed from the truth of 
Christ, it comes all to one for this particular, That the 
Roman church, which was once right, is now become wrong, 
by embracing superstition and error. 

dp. Further he confessed, " that protestants had made a 
rent and division from it." 

23. I. I confess I could here be heartily c angry, but that Sect. 21. 
I have resolved in handling matters of religion to leave all 
gall out of my ink ; for I never granted that the Roman 
church either is or was the right church. It is too true 
indeed that there is a miserable rent in the church, and 
I make no question but the best men do most bemoan it d ; 
nor is he a Christian that would not have unity, might he 
have it with truth. But I never said nor thought that the 
protestants made this rent. The cause of the schism is 
yours ; for you thrust us from you, because we called for 
truth and redress of abuses. For a e schism must needs be 
theirs whose the cause of it is. The woe runs full out of 
the mouth of f Christ ever against him that gives the offence, 
not against him that takes it ever. But you have by this 

it out more plainly : Utinam illi (he the Ariaris, and I shall not compare 

speaks of the bishops and rectors in the you with them, nor give any offence 

Roman church) a quibus hsec informa- that way. I shall only draw the gene- 

tio accipienda esset, non ipsi harum ral argument from it, thus : If the 

superstitionum auctores essent : vel certe orthodox did well in departing from 

eas in animis hominum simplicium ali- the Arians, then the schism was to be 

quando questus causa nutrirent. Cas- imputed to the Ariaus, although the 

sand. Consult. Art. i \ . versus finem. orthodox did depart from them. Other- 

c Grave omnino crimen, sed defen- wise, if the orthodox had been guilty 

sionem longinquam non requirit, satis of the schism., he could not have said, 

est enim negare ; sicut pro ecclesia olim. Recte scias nos fecisse recedendo. For 

S. August, de Util. Cred. c. 5. it cannot be that a man should do well 

d Hanc quae respectu hominum eccle- in making a schism. There may be 

sia dicitur, observare, ejusque commu- therefore a necessary separation, which 

nionem colere debemus. Calv. Inst. 4. yet incurs not the ' blame of schism ; 

c. i. . 7. and that is, when doctrines are taught 

e Recte scias nos fecisse recedendo contrary to the catholic faith, 
a vobis, &c. Lucif. lib. de non con- f Matth. xviii. 7. 
veniendo cum Haereticis. He speaks of 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 21. carriage given me just cause never to treat with you or your 
like but before a judge or a jury. 

A.C.p. 55, II. But here A. C. tells me, "I had no cause to be 
angry, either with the Jesuit or myself. Not with the Jesuit, 
for he writ down my words in fresh memory, and upon 
special notice taken of the passage ; and that I did say 
either iisdem or cequipollentibus verbis, either in these or equiva- 
lent words, that the protestants did make the rent or division 
from the Roman church." What ! did the Jesuit set down 
my words in fresh memory, and upon special notice taken ? 
and were they so few as these, " the protestants did make the 
schism," and yet was his memory so short that he cannot 
tell whether I uttered this iisdem or cequipollentibus verbis? 
Well, I would A. C. and his fellows would leave this art of 
theirs, and in conferences (which sthey are so ready to call 
for) impose no more upon other men than they utter. And 
you may observe too, that after all this full assertion that 
I spake this iisdem or cequipollentibus verbis, A. C. concludes 

A. C. p. 55. thus: " The Jesuit took special notice in fresh memory, and 
is sure he related, at least in sense, just as it was uttered." 
What is this, " at least in sense, just as it was uttered T 
Do not these two interfere, and shew the Jesuit to be upon 
his shuffling pace ? For if it were just as it was uttered, 
then it was in the very form of words too, not in sense only ; 
and if it were but at least in sense, then, when A. C. hath 
made the most of it, it was not just as it was uttered. Be- 
sides, " at least in sense" doth not tell us in whose sense it was : 
for if A. C. mean the Jesuit's sense of it, he may make 
what sense he pleases of his own words ; but he must impose 
no sense of his upon my words : but as he must leave my 
words to myself, so when my words are uttered or written, 
he must leave their sense either to me, or to that genuine 
construction which an ingenuous reader can make of them. 
And what my words of grant were I have before expressed, 
and their sense too. 

A.C.p. 56. III. Not with myself: that is the next. For A. C. says, 
:c It is truth, and that the world knows it, that the protestants 
did depart from the church of Rome, and got the name of 

KA. c. P . S7 . 

Fisher the Jesuit. Ill 

protestants by protesting against it." No, A. C., by your Sect. 21. 
leave, this is not truth neither ; and therefore I had reason 
to be angry with myself had I granted it. For, first, the 
protestants did not depart : for departure is voluntary ; so 
was not theirs. I say, not theirs, taking their whole body 
and cause together ; for that some among them were peevish, 
and some ignorantly zealous, is neither to be doubted, nor 
is there danger in confessing it. Your body is not so perfect 
(I wot well) but that many amongst you are as pettish and 
as ignorantly zealous as any of ours. You must not suffer 
for these, nor we for those, nor should the church of Christ 
for either. Next, the protestants did not get that name by 
protesting against the church of Rome, but by protesting 
(and that when nothing else would serve) h against her 
errors and superstitions. Do you but remove them from the 
church of Rome, and our protestation is ended, and the 
separation too. Nor is protestation itself such an unheard of 
thing in the very heart of religion ; for the sacraments, both 
of the Old and New Testament, are called by your own 
school, visible signs protesting the faith. Now if the sacra- 
ments be protestantia, signs protesting, why may not men 
also, and without all offence, be called protestants ; since, 
by receiving the true sacraments and by refusing them which 
are corrupted, they do but protest the sincerity of their faith 
against that doctrinal corruption which hath invaded the 
great sacrament of the Eucharist, and other parts of religion ? 
especially since they are men 'which must protest their faith 
by these visible signs and sacraments. 

IV. But A. C. goes on, and will needs have it, that the A. C. p. 56. 
protestants were the cause of the schism. " For," saith he, 
" though the church of Rome did thrust them from her by 
excommunication, yet they had first divided themselves by 
obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the 

h Conventus fuit ordinum imperii r.omen. Vide Calvis. Chro. ab an. 1529. 

Spirae. Ibi decretum factum est, ut This protestation therefore was not 

edictum Wormatiense observaretur con- simply against the Roman church, but 

tra novatores (sic appellare placuit) et against the edict, which was for the 

ut omnia in integrum restituantur, (et restoring of all things to their former 

sic nulla omnino reformatio.) Contra estate without any reformation, 
hoc edictum solennis fuit protestatio, i Quibus homo fidem suam protesta- 

Aprilis 16. an. Christi 1529. Et hinc retur. Thorn, p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. 
ortum pervulgatum illud protestantium 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 21, Roman faith and practice of the church; which to do St. 
Bernard thinks is pride, and St. Augustine, madness." So 
then, in his opinion, first, excommunication on their part 
was not the prime cause of this division, but the holding 
and teaching of contrary opinions. Why, but then, in iny 
opinion, that holding and teaching was not the prime cause 
neither; but the corruptions and superstitions of Rome, 
which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary. So 
the prime cause was theirs still. Secondly, A. C.'s words 
are very considerable ; for he charges the protestants to be 
the authors of the schism for obstinate holding and teaching 
contrary opinions. To what, I pray? Why, to the k Roman 
faith. To the Roman faith ! it was wont to be the Chris- 
tian faith to which contrary opinions were so dangerous to 
the maintainers. But all is Roman now with A. C. and the 
Jesuit. And then, to countenance the business, St. Bernard 
and St. Augustine are brought in, whereas neither of them 
speak of the Roman ; and St. Bernard, perhaps, neither of 
the catholic nor the Roman, but of a particular church or 
congregation; or if he speak of the catholic, of the Roman 
certainly he doth not. His words are, Qua? major superbia, 
&c. ; " What greater pride than that one man should prefer 
his judgment before the whole congregation of all the Chris- 
tian churches in the world T So A. C. out of St. Bernard. 
!But St. Bernard not so. For these last words, " of all the 
Christian churches in the world," are not in St. Bernard. 
And whether toti congregationi imply more in that place than 
a particular church, is not very manifest ; nay, I think it is 
plain that he speaks both of and to that particular congre- 
gation to which he was then preaching. And I believe A. C. 
will not easily find where tota congregatio, the whole congre- 
gation, is used in St. Bernard or any other of the Fathers 

k I know Bellarmine quotes St. Je- mended it. But the apostle's com- 

rome : Scito Romanam fidem, &c. supra mending of it in the Romans at one 

. 3. num. IX. But there St. Jerome time passes no deed of assurance that 

doth not call it fidem Romanam, as if it shall continue worthy of commen- 

fides Romano, and fides catkolica were dations among the Romans through all 

convertible ; but he speaks of it in the times. 

concrete : Romana fides, i. e. Roma- ' Qua? major superbia, quam ut unus 

norum fides, quae laudatafuit ab apostolo, homo toti congregationi judicium suum 

&c., Rom. i. 8. S. Hieron. Apol. 3. praeferat, tan quam ipse solus Spiriturn 

cent. Rufin., that is, that faith which Dei habeat ? S. Bernard. Serm. 3. de 

was then at Rome when St. Paul com- Resur. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 113 

tor the whole catholic church of Christ. And howsoever the Sect. 21. 

meaning of St. Bernard be, it is one thing for a private man 

judiciwm suum prceferre, to prefer and so follow his private 

judgment before the whole congregation, which is indeed 

lepra proprii consilii, (as St. Bernard there calls it,) the proud 

leprosy of the private spirit ; and quite another thing for 

an intelligent man, and in some things unsatisfied, modestly 

to propose his doubts even to the catholic church. And 

much more may a whole national church, nay, the whole body 

of the protestants do it. And for St. Augustine, the place 

alleged out of him is a known place. And he speaks indeed 

of the whole catholic church. And he m says, (and he says 

it truly,) " It is a part of most insolent madness for any man 

to dispute whether that be to be done, which is usually done 

in and through the whole catholic church of Christ." Where 

first here is not a word of the Roman church, but of that 

which is tota per orbem, all over the world, catholic, which 

Rome never yet was. Secondly, A. C. applies this to the A. C. p. 56. 

Roman faith, whereas St. Augustine speaks there expressly 

of the rites and ceremonies of the church, and "particularly 

about the manner of offering upon Maundy-Thursday, whether 

it be in the morning, or after supper, or both. Thirdly, it is 

manifest by the words themselves that St. Augustine speaks 

of no matter of faith there, Roman nor catholic : for fre- 

quentat and "faciendum are for things done and to be done, 

not for things believed or to be believed. So here is not one 

word for the Roman faith in either of these places ; and 

after this I hope you will the less wonder at A. C.'s boldness. 

Lastly, a right sober man may, without the least touch of 

insolency or madness, dispute a business of religion with the 

Roman either church or prelate, (as all men know Plrenaeus 

did with Victor,) so it be with modesty, and for the finding 

out or confirming of truth, free from vanity and purposed 

m Similiter etiam siquid horum tota And so Bellarmine most expressly, 

per orbem frequentat ecclesia ? Nam But then he adds, Universam ecclesiam 

et hinc quin ita faciendum sit disputare, non posse errare, non solum in cre- 

insolentissimae insaniae est. S. August, dendo, sed nee in operando; et praeser- 

Epist. 118. c. 5. tim in ritu, et cultu divino: lib. iv. de 

n Quseris quid per quintam feriam Verb. Dei, c. 9. . 4. And if this be 

ultimas hebdomadis quadragesimae fieri true, what is it to Rome ? 
debet, an offerendmn sit mane? &c. P Euseb. Hist. Eccl. lib. v. c. 26. 

S. August. Ibid. et Socrat. Hist. lib. v. c. 22. 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 21. opposition against even a particular church. But in an- 
other way to dispute the whole catholic church, is just that 
which St. Augustine calls it, insolent madness. 

V. But now, were it so that the church of Rome were 
orthodox in all things, yet the faith, by the Jesuit's leave, 
is not simply to be called the Roman, but the Christian and 
A. C. p. 56. the catholic faith. And yet A. C. will not understand this, 
but Roman and catholic, whether church or faith, must be 
one and the same with him ; and therefore infers, " That 
there can be no just cause to make a schism or division from 
the whole church : for the whole church cannot universally 
err in doctrine of faith." That the whole church cannot 
universally err in the doctrine of faith is most true, and it is 
granted by divers <i protestants ; (so you will but understand 
its not erring in absolute fundamental doctrines ;) and there- 
fore it is true also that there can be no just cause to make 
a schism from the whole church : but here is the Jesuit's 

<l Quaestio est, An ecclesia totalis to- 
taliter considerata, i. e. pro omnibus 
simul electis, dum sunt membra mili- 
tantis ecclesiae, possint errare, vel in 
tota fide, vel in gravi aliquo fidei 
puncto ? Et respondimus simpliciter, 
id esse impossibile. Keckerm. Syst. 
Theol. p. 387. edit. Hannoviae, an. 
1602. Calvinus et caeteri haeretici con- 
cedunt ecclesiam absolute non posse 
deficere ; sed dicunt intelligi debere de 
ecclesia invisibili. Bellarm. de Eccles. 
Milit. lib. iii. c. 13. . i. But this ex- 
ception of Bellarmine's, that the pro- 
testants, whom out of his liberality he 
calls heretics, speak of the invisible 
church, is merely frivolous. For the 
church of the elect is in the church of 
them that are called, and the invisible 
church in the visible. Therefore if the 
whole church of the elect cannot err 
in fundamentals, the whole visible 
church in which the same elect are 
cannot err. Now that the invisible 
church of the elect is in the visible, is 
manifest out of St. Augustine; Ipsa est 
ecclesia, quae intra sagenam domimcam 
cum malis piscibus natat. S. August. 
Epist. 48. Grana sunt inter illam pa- 
leam, quando area cum videretur tota, 
palea putabatur. S. August in Psal. 
cxxi. And this is proved at large by 
Hooker, Eccles. Pol. b. iii. . i. For 
else the elect or invisible church is tied 

to no duty of Christianity. For aB 
such duties are required of the church 
as it is visible, and performed in the 
church as it is visible. As we hold 
it impossible that the church should 
ever by apostasy and misbelief wholly 
depart from God, &c., so we hold that 
it never falls into heresy. So that 
Bellarmine is as much to be blamed for 
idle and needless busying himself to 
prove, that the visible church never 
falls into heresy, which we most wil- 
lingly grant, (Field, de Eccles. lib. iv. 
c. 2.) taking the church for all the 
believers now living, and in things 
necessary to be known expressly. Ibid. 
Calvinus dicit hanc propositionem Ec- 
clesia non potest errare veram ess?, si 
intelligatur cum duplici restrictione. 
Prima est, si non proponat dogmata 
extra scripturam, &c. (And indeed 
Calvin doth say so, Instit. lib. iv. c. 8 
. 13.) Secunda est, si intelligatur de 
sola ecclesia universal!, non autem de 
repraesentativa. Bellarm. cleEccl. Milit. 
lib. iii. c. 14. . 2. And I hope it is as 
good and a better restriction in Calvin, 
to say the catholic church cannot err 
if it keep to the scriptiire, than for 
Bellarmine to say the particular church 
of Rome cannot err because of the 
pope's residing there, or the pope can- 
not err if he keep his chair ; which yet 
he affirms, de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. 0.4. . 2. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 115 

cunning; the whole church with him is the Roman, and those Sect 21. 
parts of Christendom which subject themselves to the Roman 
bishop ; all other parts of Christendom are in heresy and 
schism, and what A. C. pleases. Nay, soft; for another 
church may separate from Rome, if Rome will separate from 
Christ ; and so far as it ^separates from him and the faith, 
so far may another church separate from it. And this is all 
that the learned protestants do or can say, and I am sure all 
that ever the church of England hath either said or done. 
And that the whole church cannot err in doctrines absolutely 
fundamental and necessary to all men's salvation (besides the 
authority of these protestants, most of them being of prime 
rank) seems to me to be clear by the promise of Christ, St. 
Matth. xvi., T that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 
whereas most certain it is that the gates of hell prevail very 
far against it, if the whole militant church universally taken 
can err from or in the foundation: but then this power of 
not erring is not to be conceived as if it were in the church 
primo et per se, originally, or by any power it hath of itself: 
for the church is constituted of men, and humoMum est ermre, 
all men can err. But this power is in it partly by the virtue 
of this promise of Christ, and partly by the matter which it 
teacheth, which is the unerring word of God, so plainly and 
manifestly delivered to her, as that it is not possible she 
should universally fall from it or teach against it in things 
absolutely necessary to salvation. Besides, it would be well 
weighed, whether to believe or teach otherwise will not im- 
peach the article of the Creed concerning the holy catholic 
church, which we profess we believe ; for the " holy catholic 
church there spoken of contains not only the whole militant 
church on earth, but the whole triumphant also in heaven ;" 
for so s St. Augustine hath long since taught me. Now if 
the whole catholic church in this large extent be holy, then 
certainly the whole militant church is holy as well as the 
triumphant ; though in a far lower degree, inasmuch as all 
tsanctification, all holiness, is imperfect in this life, as well in 

r Matt. xvi. 18. in coelis, &c. S.August. Enchir. c. 56. 

s Ecclesia hie tota accipienda est, non t Nemo ex toto sanctus. Optat. lib. 

solum ex parte qua peregrinatur in ter- vii. contra Panneu. 
ris, &c. verum etiuni ex ilia parte quae 

I 2 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 21. churches as in men. Holy then the whole militant church 
is. For that which the apostle speaks of Abraham is true 
of the church, which is a body collective, made up of the 
spiritual seed of Abraham : ^If the root be holy, so are the 
branches. Well, then, the whole militant church is holy, and 
so we believe. Why, but will it not follow then, that the 
whole militant church cannot possibly err in the foundations 
of the faith ? That she may err in superstructures and de- 
ductions, and other by and unnecessary truths, if her curiosity 
or other weakness carry her beyond or cause her to fall short 
of her rule, no doubt need be made ; but if she can err 
either from the foundation or in it, she can be no longer holy, 
and that article of the Creed is gone. For if she can err 
quite from the foundation, then she is nor holy nor church, 
but becomes an infidel. Now this cannot be, for x all divines, 
ancient and modern, Romanists and reformers, agree in this, 
" That the whole militant church of Christ cannot fall away 
into general apostasy ." And if she err in the foundation, 
that is, in some one or more fundamental points of faith, then 
she may be a church of Christ still, but not holy, but becomes 
heretical : and most certain it is, that no 7 assembly (be it 
never so general) of such heretics is or can be holy. Other 
errors that are of a t meaner allay take not holiness from the 
church, but these that are dyed in grain cannot consist with 
holiness ; of which faith in Christ is the very foundation. 
And therefore, if we will keep up our Creed, the whole mili- 
tant church must be still holy. For if it be not so still, 
then there may be a time that falswm may subesse fidei 
catholicce, that falsehood, and that in a high degree, in the 
very article, may be the subject of the catholic faith ; which 
were no less than blasphemy to affirm : for we must still 
believe the holy catholic church. And if she be not still 

Rom. xi. 1 6. . 3. Ipsa symbol! dispositione ad- 

x Dum Christus orat in excelso, na- monetur perpetuam residere in ecdesra 

vicula (id est, ecclesia) turbatur flucti- Christ! remissionem peccatorum. Calv. 

bus in profundo, &c. ; sed quia Christus Instit. lib. iv. c. i. . 1 7. Now remission 

orat, nori potest mergi. S. August, of sins cannot be perpetual in the 

Serm. 14. de Verb. Dom. c. 2. Et church, if the church itself be not per- 

Bellarm. de Eccles. Milit. lib. iii. c. 13. petual : but the church itself cannot 

-Praesidio Christ! fulcitur ecclesia? per- be perpetual if it fall away, 

petuitas, ut inter turbulentas agita- y Spiritus sanctificationis non potest 

tioues, et formidabiles motus, &c. salva inveniri in haereticorum mentibus, S. 

tamen maneat. Calvin. Inst. lib. ii. c. 15. Hieron. in Jerem. x. 

FisJwr the Jesuit. 117 

holy, then at that time when she is not so we believe a false- Sect. 21. 
hood under the article of the catholic faith. Therefore a very 
dangerous thing it is to cry out in general terms that the 
whole catholic militant church can err, and not limit nor 
distinguish in time that it can err indeed; for ignorance it 
hath, and ignorance can err; but err it cannot, either by 
falling totally from the foundation, or by heretical error in it : 
for the holiness of the church consists as much, if not more, 
in the verity of the faith, as in the integrity of manners 
taught and commanded in the doctrine of faith. 

VI. Now in this discourse A. 0. thinks he hath met with A. C. p. 56. 
me ; for he tells me, " That I may not only safely grant that 
protestants made the division that is now in the church, but 
further also, and that with a safe confidence, as one did 
was it not you T saith he " that it was ill done of those who 
first made the separation." Truly I do not now remember 
whether I said it or no ; but because A. C. shall have full 
satisfaction from me, and without any tergiversation, if I did 
not say it then, I do say it now : and most true it is, that 
it was ill done of those, whoever they were, that first made 
the separation. But then A. C. must not understand me of 
actual only, but of casual separation : for (as I said z before) 
the schism is theirs whose the cause of it is ; and he makes 
the separation that gives the first just cause of it, not he that 
makes an actual separation upon a just cause preceding. And 
this is so evident a truth that A. C. cannot deny it, for he 
says it is most true : neither can he deny it in this sense in A. C. p. 56. 
which I have expressed it ; for his very assertion against us 
(though false) is in these terms, " that we gave the first 
cause ;" therefore he must mean it of casual, not of actual 
separation only. 

VII. But then A. C. goes on and tells us, "That after A. c. P . 5 ;. 
this breach was made, yet the church of Rome was so kind 
and careful to seek the protestants, that she invited them 
publicly with safe-conduct to Rome, to a general council, 
freely to speak what they could for themselves." Indeed, 
I think the church of Rome did carefully seek the protest- 
ants, but I doubt it was to bring them within their net : and 

z Sect. 21. num. I. 

1 3 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 21. she invited them to Rome; a very safe place, if you mark it, 
for them to come to; just as the lion (in the a apologue) 
invited the fox to his own den. Yea, but there was safe-con- 
duct offered too. Yes, conduct perhaps, but not safe ; or safe 
perhaps for going thither, but none for coming thence ; vesti- 
gia nulla retrorsum. Yea, but it should have been to a 
general council. Perhaps so. But was the conduct safe that 
was given for coming to a council which they call general to 
some others before them? No sure, bJohn Huss and Jerome 
of Prague burnt for all their safe-conduct. And so long as 
the c Jesuits write and maintain that " faith given is not to be 
kept with heretics," and the church of Rome leaves this lewd 
doctrine uncensured, (as it hath hitherto done, and no ex- 

a OKm quod vulpes aegroto cauta leoni 
Respondit, referam, Quia me vesti- 
gia terrent 

Omnia te adversum spectantia, nulla 

Hor. lib. i. ep. I. ex JEsop. 

b Though I cannot justify all which 
these two men said, yet safe-conduct 
being given, that public faith ought not 
to have been violated. 

c Affirmant uno consensu omnes ea- 
tholici, debere haereticis servari fidem, 
sive salvus-conductus concedatur, jure 
communi sive special!. Bee. Dis. Theol. 
de Fide Haereticis servanda, c. 12. .5. 
But for all this brag of " Affirmant 
uno consensu omnes catholici," Becanus 
shuffles pitifully to defend the council 
of Constance : for thus he argues ; Fides 
won est violata Husso. Non a patribus : 
illi enim fidem non dederunt. Non ab 
imperatore Sigismundo : ille enim dedit 
iidem, sed non violavit. Ibid. .7. But 
all men know that the emperor was 
used by the Fathers at Constance to 
bring Huss thither ; Sigismundus Hus- 
suni Constantium vocat, et missis literia 
publica fide cavet, mense Octob. anno 
1414. &c. edit, in 16. Et etiamsi pri- 
mo graviter tulit Hussi in carceratio- 
nem, tamen cum dicerent " Fidem hae- 
reticis non esse servandam," non modo 
remisit offensionem, sed et primus acer- 
be in eum pronunciavit. Ibid. This is 
a mockery : and Becanus his argument 
is easily turned upon himself. For if 
the Fathers did it in cunning, that the 
emperor should give safe-conduct which 
themselves meant not to keep, then they 
broke faith : and if the emperor knew 

they would not keep it, then he himself 
broke faith, in giving a safe conduct 
which he knew to be invalid. And as 
easy is it to answer what Becanus adds 
to save that council's act, could I stay 
upon it. 

Fides haereticis data servanda non 
est, sicut nee tyrannis, piratis et eaeteris 
publicis praedonibus, &c. Simanca, In- 
stit. Tit. 46. 51. And although Be- 
canus in the place above cited, . 13, 
confidently denies that the Fathers at 
Constance decreed " no faith to be kept 
with heretics," and cites the words of 
the council, Sess. 19, yet there the very 
words themselves have it thus : Posse 
concilium eos punire, &c. etiamsi de 
salvo-conductu confisi ad locum vene- 
rint judicii, &c. And much more plain- 
ly Simanca, Instit. 46. .52; Jure igi- 
tur haeretici quidam gravissimo concilii 
Constantiensis judicio legitima flamma 
concremati sunt, quamvis proniissa illis 
securitas fuisset. So they are not only 
protestants which charge the council of 
Constance with this : nor can Becanus 
say as he doth, Affirmant uno consensu 
omnes catholici, fidem haereticis servan- 
dam esse : for Simanca denies it ; and 
he quotes others for it which A. C. 
would be loath should not be accounted 
catholics. But how faithfully Simanca 
says the one, or Becanus the other, let 
them take it between them, and the 
reader be judge. In the mean time 
the very title of the canon of the coun- 
cil of Constance, Sess. 19, is this : Quod 
non obstantibus salvis-conductibus im- 
peratoris, regum, &c. possit per judicem 
competentem de haeretica pravitate in- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 119 

ception put in of force and violence,) A. C. shall pardon us Sect. 21. 
that we come not to Rome, nor within the reach of Roman 
power, what freedom of speech soever be promised us. For 
to what end is freedom of speech on their part, d since they 
are resolved to alter nothing? and to what end freedom of 
speech on our part, if after speech hath been free, life shall 

VIII. And yet for all this A. C. "makes no doubt but A. C. p. 5 7. 
that the Roman church is so far from being cause of the 
continuance of the schism, or hinderance of the reunion, that 
it would yet give a free hearing with most ample safe-con- 
duct, if any hope might be given that the protestants would 
sincerely seek nothing but truth and peace." Truly A. C. is 
very resolute for the Roman church ; yet how far he may 
undertake for it I cannot tell ; but for my part, I am of the 
same opinion for the continuing of the schism that I was for 
the making of it ; that is, that it is ill, very ill done of those, 
whoever they be, papists or protestants, that give just cause 
to continue a separation. But for free hearings or safe- 
conducts I have said enough, till that church do not only say 
but do otherwise. And as for truth and peace, they are in 
every man's mouth with you and with us ; but lay they but 
half so close to the hearts of men as they are common on 
their tongues, it would soon be better with Christendom than 
at this day it is, or is like to be. And for the protestants in 
general, I hope they seek both truth and peace sincerely : 
the church of England I am sure doth, and hath taught me 
to e pray for both, as I most heartily do; but what Rome 
doth in this, if the world will not see, I will not censure. 

IX. And for that which A.C. adds, "That such a free A C. p. 57. 
hearing is more than ever the English catholics could obtain, 
though they have often offered and desired it, and that but 
under the prince's word ; and that no answer hath, nor no 

d For so much A. C. confesses, p .45. erat doctrinam earn non probare, sed 

For if they should give way to the quam antea didicissent finniter tenere, 

altering of one, then why not of an- &c. Hist. Concil. Trid. lib. ii. p. 277. 

other, and another, and so of all ? And edit. Leyd. 1622. 

the Trent Fathers in a great point of e Beseeching God to inspire eontinu- 

doctrine being amazed, and not know- ally the universal church with the spirit 

ing what to answer to a bishop of their of truth, unity, and concord, &c. in the 

own, yet were resolved not to part with prayer for the militant church, and in 

their common error. Certum tamen the third collect on Good Friday. 

1 4 

1<20 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 11, 22. good answer can be given." And he cites Campian for it. 
How far or how often this hath been asked by the English 
Romanists I cannot tell, nor what answer hath been given 
them ; but surely Campian was too bold, and so is A. C. too, 
to say *honestum responsum nullum, no good answer can be 
given; for this, I think, is a very good answer that the 
kings and the church of England had no reason to admit of 
a public dispute with the English Romish clergy, till they 
shall be able to shew it under the seal or powers of Rome, 
that that church will submit to a third, who may be an indif- 
ferent judge between us and them, or to such a general 
council as is after mentioned. And this is an honest, and 
I think a full answer. And without this all disputation must 
end in clamour : and therefore the more public the worse ; 
because as the clamour is the greater, so perhaps will be the 
schism too. 

dp. Moreover he said he would ingenuously acknowledge 
that the corruption of manners in the Romish church 
was not a sufficient cause to justify their departing 
from it. 

Soot. 22. ij. I would I could say you did as ingenuously repeat as 
I did confess ; for I never said that corruption of manners 
was or was not a sufficient cause to justify their departure. 
How could I say this, since I did not grant that they did 
depart otherwise than is h before expressed ? There is differ- 
ence between departure and causeless thrusting from you; 
for out of the church is not in your power (Grod be thanked) 
to thrust us : think on that. And so much I said expressly 
then. That which I did ingenuously confess was this, " That 
corruption in manners only is no sufficient cause to make a 
separation in the church ;" 'nor is it : it is a truth agreed on 
by the Fathers, and received by divines of all sorts, save by 
the Cathari, to whom the Donatist and the Anabaptist after 
accorded, and against whom k Calvin disputes it strongly. 
And ] St. Augustine is plain: "There are bad fish in the net 

f Campian. Praef. Rationibus praefixa. k Jnstit. lib. iv. c. I. . 13, &e. 
', Sect. 26. num. I. 1 Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde senj- 

h Sect. 21. num. VI. per et moribus separantur, &c. ; rorpo- 

i Moclo ea quae ad cathedram perti- ralem separationem in littore man's, ho<- 

nent. recta pnedpiant. S. Hier. Ep. 236. est, in fine saeculi expectant. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 121 

of the Lord, from which there must be ever a separation in Sect. 22,23. 
heart and in manners ; but a corporal separation must be 
expected at the seashore, that is, the end of the world." And 
the best fish that are must not tear and break the net be- 
cause the bad are with them. And this is as ingenuously 
confessed for you as by me : for if corruption in manners were 
a just cause of actual separation of one church from another 
in that catholic body of Christ, the church of Rome hath 
given as great cause as any ; " since (as m Stapleton grants) 
there is scarce any sin that can be thought by man (heresy 
only excepted) with which that see hath not been foully 
stained, especially from eight hundred years after Christ." 
And he need not except heresy, into which u Biel grants it 
possible the bishops of that see may fall. And Stella and 
Almain grant it freely that some of them did fall, and so 
ceased to be heads of the church, and left Christ (God be 
thanked) at that time of his vicars' defection to look to his 
cure himself. 

$. But, saith he, beside corruption of manners, there were 
also errors in doctrine. 

33. This I spake indeed. And can you prove that I spake Sect. 23. 
not true in this? But I added, (though here again you are 
pleased to omit it,) " That some of the errors of the Roman 
church were dangerous to salvation." For it is not every 
light error in disputable doctrine and points of curious specu- 
lation that can be a just cause of separation in that admirable 
body of Christ which is his P church, or of one member of it 
from another : for he gave his natural body to be rent and 
torn upon the cross, that his mystical body might be one. 
And q St. Augustine infers upon it, " That he is no way par- 
taker of divine charity that is an enemy to this unity." Now 
what errors in doctrine may give just cause of separation in 
this body, or the parts of it one from another, were it never 

m Vix ullum peccatura (sola haeresi decretales htereticse, &c. And so they 

excepta) cogitari potest, quo ilia sedes erred as popes. 

turpiter maculata non fuerit, maxirne P Eph. i. 23. 

a!> anno 800. Relect. Cont. T. q. 5. Q S. August. Epist. 50. Et iterum 

Art. 3. columbae non sunt qui ecclesiam dissi- 

n Biel. in Can. Miss. Lect. 23. pant. Accipitres sunt, milvi sunt : non 

Stel. in S. Luc. c. 22. Almain. in laniat columba, &c. S. August. Tract. 5. 

3. Sent. D. 24. q. i. fine. Multae sunt in S. Joh. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 23, 24. so easy to determine, (as I think it is most difficult,) I would 
not venture to set it down in particular, lest in these times 
of discord I might be thought to open a door for schism; 
which surely I will never do, unless it be to let it out. But 
that there are errors in doctrine, and some of them such as 
most manifestly endanger salvation, in the church of Rome, 
is evident to them that will not shut their eyes ; the proof 
whereof runs through the particular points that are between 

A. C. p. 55. us, and so is too long for this discourse. Now here A. 0. 
would fain have a reason given him " why I did endeavour to 
shew what cause the protestants had to make that rent or 
division, if I did not grant that they made it 2" Why truly 
in this reasonable demand I will satisfy him. I did it partly 
because I had granted it in the general, that corruption in 
manners was no sufficient cause of separation of one parti- 
cular church from another, and therefore it lay upon me at 
least to name in general what was; and partly because he 
and his party will needs have it so that we did make the 
separation : and therefore, though I did not grant it, yet amiss 
I thought it could not be to declare, by way of supposition, 
that if the protestants did at first separate from the church 

A. C. p. 56. of Rome, they had reason so to do ; for A. C. himself con- 
fesses, " That error in doctrine of the faith is a just cause of 
separation, so just as that no cause is just but that." Now 
had I leisure to descend into particulars, or will to make the 
rent in the church wider, it is no hard matter to prove that 
the church of Rome hath erred in the doctrine of faith, and 
dangerously too : and I doubt I shall afterwards descend to 
particulars, A. C. his importunity forcing me to it. 

-. Which when the general church would not reform, it 
was lawful for particular churches to reform them- 

Sect. 24. 23. I. Is it then such a strange thing that a particular 
church may reform itself, if the general will not? I had 
thought, and do so still, that in point of reformation of either 
manners or doctrine, it is lawful for the church since Christ 
to do as the church before Christ did and might do. The 
church before Christ consisted of Jews and proselytes : this 
church came to have a separation upon a most ungodly policy 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

of r Jeroboam's, so that it never pieced together again. To a Sect. 24. 
common council, to reform all, they would not come. Was 
it not lawful for Judah to reform herself when Israel would 
not join ? Sure it was, or else the prophet deceives me, that 
says expressly, s Though Israel transgress, yet let not Judah sin. 
And St. Jerome l expounds it of this very particular sin of 
heresy and error in religion. Nor can you say that u Israel 
from the time of the separation was not a church ; for there 
were true prophets in it, x Elias, and yElisseus, and others, 
and z thousands that had not botved Jcnees to Baal: and there 
was salvation for these, which cannot be in the ordinary way 
where there is no church. And God threatens to a cast them 
away to wander among the nations, and be no congregation, 
no church : therefore he had not yet cast them away in non 
ecclesiam, into no church. And they are expressly called 
b the people of the Lord in Jehu's time, and so continued long 
after. Nor can you plead that Judah is your part and the 
ten tribes ours, (as some of you do ;) for if that be true, you 
must grant that the multitude and greater number is ours ; 
and where then is multitude, your numerous note of the 
church? for the ten tribes were more than the two. But 
you cannot plead it ; for certainly, if any calves be set up, 
they are in Dan and in Bethel, they are not ours. 

II. Besides, to reform what is amiss in doctrine or man- 
ners is as lawful for a particular church as it is to publish 
and promulgate any thing that is catholic in either ; and 
your question, quo judice ? lies alike against both. And yet 
I think it may be proved that the church of Rome, and that 
as a particular church, did promulgate an orthodox truth 
which was not then catholicly admitted in the church, namely, 
the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son. If she 
erred in this fact, confess her error; if she erred not, why 
may not another particular church do as she did ? A learned 

r 3 Reg. xii. 27. s Hos. iv. 15. septem ilia millia fuisse statuo, qui in 

t Super haereticis prona intelligentia persecutione sub Achabo Deum sibi ab 

est. S. Ilieron. ibid. idololatria immunes reservarunt, riec 

u Non tameii cessavit Deus et popu- genna ante Baal flexerunt. Fran. JMon- 

lum hunc arguere per prophetas. Nam ceius, de Vit. Aureo, lib. i. c. 1 2. 

ibi extiterunt magni illi et insignes pro- x 3 Reg. xvii. sub Achabo. 

phetai Elias et Elizaeus, &c. S. August. y 4 Reg. iii. sub Jehoram filio Acliabi. 

de Civ. Dei, lib. xvii. c. 22 Multi re- z 3 Reg. xix. 18. 

ligiose intra se Dei cultum habebant, a Hos. ix. 17. 

&c. De quo numero eorumve posteris b 4 Reg. ix. 6. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 24. schoolman of yours saith she may: " c The church of Rome 
needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this truth, 
since the authority of publishing it was in the church of 
Rome ; especially since it is lawful for every particular church 
to promulgate that which is catholic." Nor can you say he 
means catholic as foredetermined by the church in general ; 
for so this point, when Rome added Filioque to the creed of a 
general council, was not. And how the Grecians were used 
in the after-council (such as it was) of Florence, is not to 
trouble this dispute ; but catholic stands there for that which 
is so in the nature of it and fundamentally. Nor can you 
justly say that the church of Rome did or might do this by 
the pope's authority over the church : for suppose he have 
that, and that his sentence be infallible, (I say, suppose both, 
but I give neither,) yet neither his authority nor his infalli- 
bility can belong unto him as the particular bishop of that 
see, but as the d ministerial head of the whole church. And 
you are all so lodged in this, that e Bellarmine professes he 
can neither tell the year when nor the pope under whom this 
addition was made. A particular church then, if you judge 
it by the school of Rome or the practice of Rome, may 
publish any thing that is catholic where the whole church 
is silent, and may therefore reform any thing that is not 
catholic where the whole church is negligent or will not. 

III. But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome as 
f Capellus is, who is angry with Baronius about certain canons 
in the second Milevitan council, and saith, "That he con- 
sidered not of what consequence it was to grant to particular 
churches the power of making canons of faith without con- 
sulting the Roman see, which (as he saith, and you with him) 
was never lawful, nor ever done." But suppose this were so, 

c Non oportuit ad hoc eos vocare, crept in, we must be bound to tell the 

quum authoritas fuerit publicandi apud plane and the time, and I know not 

ecclesiam Romanam, praecipue cum uni- what, of their beginnings, or else they 

cuique etiam particular! ecclesiae liceat, are not errors ; as if some errors might 

id quod catholicum est, promulgare. not want a record as well as some 

Alb. Magn. in i. Dist. u. A. 9. truth. 

d Non errare, convenit papae, tit est f Omnino recte, nisi excepisset, &c. 

caput. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. Nee consideravit quanti referat conce- 

c - $ dere ecclesiis particularibus jus conden- 

s De Christo, lib. ii. c. 21. . Quarido dorum canonum de fide, inconsulta Ro- 

autem. So you cannot find records of mana sede, quod nunquam licuit, nuu- 

your own truths, which are far more quam factum est, &c. Capel. de Appel- 

hkely to be kept; but when errors are lat. Eccl. African*, c. 2. num. 12. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 125 

my speech was not not consulting, but in case of neglecting or Sect. 24. 
refusing, or when the difficulty of time and place, or other 
circumstances, are such that a ^general council cannot be 
called, or not convene. For that the Roman see must be 
consulted with before any reformation be made, first, most 
certain it is Capellus can never prove, and secondly, as cer- 
tain, that were it proved and practised we should have no 
reformation ; for it would be long enough before the church 
should be cured if that see alone should be her physician, 
which in truth is her disease. 

IV. Now if for all this you will say still that a provincial 
council will not suffice, but we should have borne with things 
till the time of a general council ; first, it is true, a general 
council, free and entire, would have been the best remedy and 
most able for a gangrene that had spread so far and eaten 
so deep into Christianity. But what should we have suffered 
this gangrene to endanger life and all rather than be cured 
in time by a physician of a weaker knowledge and a less able 
hand ! Secondly, we live to see since, if we had stayed and 
expected a general council, what manner of one we should 
have had, if any : for that at Trent was neither general nor 
free ; and for the errors which Rome had contracted, it con- 
firmed them, it cured them not. And yet I much doubt 
whether ever that council (such as it was) would have been 
called, if some provincial and national synods under supreme 
and regal power had not first set upon this great work of 
reformation ; which I heartily wish had in all places been as 
orderly and happily pursued as the work was right Christian 
and good in itself; but human frailty, and the heats and 
distempers of men, as well as the cunning of the devil, would 
not suffer that. For even in this sense also, ^the wrath of 
man doth not accomplish the will of God : but I have learned 
not to reject the good which God hath wrought for any evil 
which men may fasten to it. 

V. And yet if for all this you think it is better for us to 
be blind than to open our own eyes, let me tell you, very 
grave and learned men, and of your own party, have taught 

g Rex confitetur se vocasse concilium denegabat, &c. Concil. Toletan. ter- 

tertium Toletanum ; quia decursis retro tium, can. i. 
temporibus haeresis imminens in tota h James i. 20. 
ecclesia catholica agere synodica negotia 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 24. me, that when the universal church will not, or for the iniqui- 
ties of the times cannot, obtain and settle a free general 
council, it is lawful, nay, sometimes necessary, to reform 
gross abuses by a national or a provincial : for besides Alb. 
Magnus, whom I quoted 'before, Gerson, the learned and 
devout chancellor of Paris, tells us plainly, " k That he will 
not deny but that the church may be reformed by parts; 
and that this is necessary; and that to effect it provincial 
councils may suffice, and in some things diocesan." And 
again; ul Either you should reform all estates of the church 
in a general council, or command them to be reformed in 
provincial councils." Now Gerson lived about two hundred 
years since. But this right of provincial synods, that they 
might decree in causes of faith, and in cases of reformation, 
where corruptions had crept into the sacraments of Christ, 
was practised much above a thousand years ago by many 
both national and provincial synods. For the m council at 
Rome under pope Sylvester, anno 324, condemned Photinus 
and Sabellius ; (and their heresies were of high nature against 
the faith.) The "council at Gangra about the same time 
condemned Eustathius for his condemning of marriage as 
unlawful. The first council at Carthage, being a provincial, 
condemned rebaptization, much about the year 348. The 
P provincial council at Aquileia, in the year 381, in which 
St. Ambrose was present, condemned Palladius and Secun- 
dinus for embracing the Arian heresy. The <; second council 
of Carthage handled and decreed the belief and preaching of 
the Trinity; and this a little after the year 424. The r coun- 
cil of Milevis in Africa, in which St. Augustine was present, 
condemned the whole course of the heresy of Pelagius, that 
great and bewitching heresy, in the year 416. The s second 
council at Orange, a provincial too, handled the great con- 

i Sect. 24. num. II. clesiasticorum, par. I. pag. 209. B. 

k Nolo tamen dicere, quiix in multis m Concil. Rom. 2. sub Sylvestro. 
partibus possit ecclesia per suas partes n Concil. Gang. can. i. 
reformari. Imo hoc necesse esset, sed o Concil. Carth. i. can. i. 
ad hoc agendum sufficerent concilia pro- P Concil. Aquiliens. 
vincialia, &c. Gerson. Tract, de Gen. q Concil. Carth. 2. can. i. 
Concil. unius obedientise, par. i. pag. r Quaedam de causis fidei, unde mine 

222 F- quaestio Pelagian orum irmninet, in hoc 

1 Omnes ecclesiae status aut in gene- co2tusanctissimoprimitustractentur,&c. 

rali condlio reformer's, aut in conciliis Aurel. Carthaginensis in Pnefat. Con- 

provincialibus reformari mandetis. Ger- cil. Milevit. apud Caranzam. 
son. Declarat. Defectuum Virorum EC- s Concil. Arausican. 2. can. 1,2, &c. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 127 

troversies about grace and freewill, and set the church right Sect. 
in them, in the year 444. The 'third council at Toledo (a 
national one), in the year 589, determined many things 
against the Arian heresy, about the very prime articles of 
faith, under fourteen several anathemas. The fourth council 
at Toledo did not only handle matters of faith for the reform- 
ation of that people, u but even added also some things to the 
Creed which were not expressly delivered in former creeds. 
Nay, the bishops did not only practise this to condemn here- 
sies in national and provincial synods, and so reform those 
several places and the church itself by parts, but they did 
openly challenge this as their right and due, and that without 
any leave asked of the see of Rome : for in this fourth 
council of Toledo x they decree, "That if there happen a 
cause of faith to be settled, a general, that is, a national 
synod of all Spain and Galicia shall be held thereon ;" and 
this in the year 643 : where you see it was then catholic 
doctrine in all Spain that a national synod might be a com- 
petent judge in a cause of faith. And I would fain know 
what article of the faith doth more concern all Christians in 
general than that of Filioque ? and yet the church of Rome 
herself made that addition to the Creed without a general 
council, as I have shewed Y already. And if this were prac- 
tised so often, and in so many places, why may not a national 
council of the church of England do the like ? as she did : 
for she cast off the pope's usurpation, and, as much as in 
her lay, restored the king to his right. That appears by a 
z book subscribed by the bishops in Henry the Eighth's time, 
and by the a records in the archbishop's office, orderly kept, 
and to be seen. In the reformation which came after, our 
b princes had their parts, and the clergy theirs : and to these 

t Concil. Tolet. 3. z The Institution of a Christian Man; 

u Quae omnia in aliis symbolis expli- printed an. 1534. 

cite tradita non suiit. Concil. Tolet. 4. a In Synodo Londinensi, Sess. 8. 

can. i. Die Veneris, 29 Januarii an. 1562. 

x Statuimus, ut saltern semel in anno b And so in the reformation under 

a nobis concilium celebretur, ita tamen, Hezekiah, 2 Chron. xxix., and under 

ut si fidei causa est, aut quselibet alia Josiah, 4 Reg. xxiii. And in the time 

ecclesiae cormnunis, generalis Hispaniae of Reccaredus king of Spain the re- 

et Galiciae synodus celebretur, &c. formation there proceeded thus : Quum 

Concil. Tolet. 4. can. 3. gloriosissimus princeps omnes regimi- 

7 Sect. 24. num. II. nis sui pontifices in unum conve- 

128 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 24. two principally the power and direction for reformation be- 
longs. That our princes had their parts, is manifest by their 
calling together of the bishops and others of the clergy, to 
consider of that which might seem worthy reformation. And 
the clergy did their part : for being thus called together by 
regal power, they met in the national synod of sixty-two; 
and the articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed 
by acts of state and the royal assent. In this synod the 
positive truths which are delivered are more than the pole- 
mics ; so that a mere calumny it is, that we profess only a 
negative religion. True it is, and we must thank Rome for 
it, our confession must needs contain some negatives : for we 
cannot but deny that images are to be adored ; nor can we 
admit maimed sacraments, nor grant prayers in an unknown 
tongue. And in a corrupt time or place it is as necessary in 
religion to deny falsehood as to assert and vindicate truth : 
indeed, this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but 
by the former ; an affirmative verity being ever included in 
the negative to a falsehood. As for any error which might 
fall into this, (as any other reformation,) if any such can be 
found, then I say and it is most true reformation, espe- 
cially in cases of religion, is so difficult a work, and subject 
to so many pretensions, that it is almost impossible but the 
reformers should step too far or fall too short in some smaller 
things or other, which, in regard of the far greater benefit 
coming by the reformation itself, may well be passed over and 
borne withal. But if there have been any wilful and gross 
errors, not so much in opinion as in fact, ( c sacrilege too often 
pretending to reform superstition,) that is the crime of the 
reformers, not of the reformation ; and they are long since 
gone to God to answer it : to whom I leave them. 

VI. But now before I go off from this point I must put 
you in remembrance too that I spake at that time (and so 
must all that will speak of that exigent) of the general church 

nire raandasset, &c. Concil. Tolet. 3. reges terrae Christo servientes ad emen- 

can. i. Cum convenissemus sacerdotes dandam vestram impietatem promulga- 

Dotnini apud urbem Toletanam, ut re- vemnt, res proprias vestras cupide ap- 

giis imperils atque jussis commoniti, &c. petit, displicet nobis. Quisquis denique 

Concil. Tolet. 4. in princ. apud Caran- ipsas res pauperum, vel Basilicas con- 

zam. And both these synods did treat gregationum, &c. non per justitiam, sed 

of matters of faith. per avaritiam tenet, displicet nobis. S. 

c Quisquis occasione hujus legis, quam August. Epist. 48. versus finem. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 129 

as it was for the most part forced under the government of Sect. 24,25. 
the Roman see : and this you understand well enough ; for 
in your very next words you call it the Roman church. Now 
I make no doubt but that, as the universal catholic church 
would have reformed herself, had she been in all parts freed 
of the Roman yoke, so, while she was for the most in these 
western parts under that yoke, the church of Rome was, if 
not the only, yet the chief hinderance of reformation. And 
then in this sense it is more than clear, that if the Roman 
church will neither reform nor suffer reformation, it is lawful 
for any other particular church to reform itself, so long as it 
doth it peaceably and orderly, and keeps itself to the founda- 
tion and free from d sacrilege. 

$. I asked, Quo judice did this appear to be so ? which 
question I asked as not thinking it equity that protest- 
ants in their own cause should be accusers, witnesses, 
and judges of the Roman church. 

23. I.- You do well to tell the reason now why you asked Sect. 25. 
this question ; for you did not discover it at the conference ; 
if you had, you might then have received your answer. It is 
most true, no man in common equity ought to be suffered to 
be accuser, witness, and judge in his own cause ; but is there 
not as little reason, and equity too, that any man that is to be 
accused should be the accused, and yet witness and judge in 
his own cause ? If the first may hold, no man shall be inno- 
cent ; and if the last, none will be nocent. And what do we 
here with " in their own cause against the Roman church T 
Why, is it not your own too against the protestant church ? 
And if it be a cause common to both, as certain it is, then 
neither part alone may be judge : if neither alone may judge, 
then either they must be judged by a e third, which stands 
indifferent to both, and that is the scripture, or, if there be 
a jealousy or doubt of the sense of the scripture, they must 
either both repair to the exposition of the primitive church, 
and submit to that, or both call and submit to a general 

d And this a particular church may grievousness of the crime, St. Augustine 

do, but not a schism ; for a schism can calls it sacrilegium schismatis, De Bapt. 

never be peaceable nor orderly, and sel- cont. Donat. lib. i. c. 8 ; for usually 

dom free from sacrilege. Out of which they go together, 
respects, (it may be,) as well as for the e Sect. 21. num. IX. 

130 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. council, which shall be lawfully called, and fairly and freely 
held with indifferency to all parties, and that must judge the 
difference according to scripture, which must be their rule as 
well as private menV 

A. C. p. 58. II. And here, after some loud cry against the pride and 
insolent madness of the protestants, A. C. adds, " That the 
church of Rome is the principal and mother-church ; and that 
therefore, though it be against common equity that subjects 
and children should be accusers, witnesses, judges, and execu- 
tioners against their prince and mother in any case, yet it is 
not absurd that in some cases the prince or mother may 
accuse, witness, judge, and, if need be, execute justice against 
unjust and rebellious subjects or evil children. 11 How far 
forth Rome is a prince over the whole church, or a mother of 
it, will come to be shewed at after. In the mean time, 
though I cannot grant her to be either, yet let us suppose 
her to be both, that A. C.'s argument may have all the 
strength it can have : nor shall it force me (as plausible as it 
seems) to weaken the just power of princes over their sub- 
jects, or of mothers over their children, to avoid the shock of 
this argument : for though A. C. may tell us it is not absurd 
in some cases, yet I would fain have him name any one mode- 
rate prince that ever thought it just or took it upon him to 
be accuser, and witness, and judge, in any cause of moment 
against his subjects, but that the law had liberty to judge 
between them. For the great philosopher tells us, " f That 
the chief magistrate is custos juris, the guardian and keeper 
of the law ; and if of the law, then both of that equity and 
equality which is due unto them that are under him." And 
even Tiberius himself, in the cause of Silanus, when Dolabella 
would have flattered him into more power than in wisdom he 
thought fit then to take to himself, he put him off thus : No, 
"sthe laws grow less where such power enlarges; nor is 
absolute power to be used where there may be an orderly 
proceeding by law." And for h parents, it is true, when chil- 
dren are young they may chastise them without other accuser 
or witness than themselves, and yet the children are to give 

f "Eari 8e 6 &px uv <f>uAo| rov SiKalov nee utendum imperio, uhi legibus agi 

ft 5* rov SiKalov, KOI rov foov. Arist. possit. Tacit. Ann. lib. iii. 

Eth. c. 6. h Heb. xii. 9. 

Minui jura quoties gliscat potestas, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 131 

them reverence : and it is presumed that natural affection Sect. 25. 
will prevail so far with them that they will not punish them 
too much ; for all experience tells us (almost to the loss of 
education) they 'punish them too little, even when there is 
cause : yet when children are grown up and come to some 
full use of their own reason, the apostle's rule is, k Colos. iii. 
Parents, provoke not your children ; and if the apostle prevail 
not with froward parents, there is a magistrate and a law 
to relieve even a son against ] unnatural parents : as it was 
in the case of T. Manlius against his over-imperious father. 
And an express law there was among the Jews m when chil- 
dren were grown up and fell into great extremities, that the 
parents should then bring them to the magistrate, and not 
be too busy in such cases with their own power. So suppose 
Rome be a prince, yet her subjects must be tried by God's 
law the scripture ; and suppose her a mother, yet there is 
or ought to be remedy against her for her children that are 
grown up, if she forget all good nature and turn stepdame to 

III. Well ; the reason why the Jesuit asked the ques- 
tion, Quo judice ? who should be judge ? he says, was this ; 
because there is no equity in it that the protestants should 
be judges in their own cause. But now upon more delibera- 
tion A. C. tells us, (as if he knew the Jesuit's mind as well as A. C. p. 57. 
himself, as sure I think he doth,) " That the Jesuit directed 
this question chiefly against that speech of mine, that there 
were errors in doctrine of faith, and that in the general 
church, as the Jesuit understood my meaning. 11 The Jesuit 
here took my meaning right ; for I confess I said there 
were errors in doctrine, and dangerous ones too, in the church 
of Rome : I said likewise, that when the general church could 
not or would not reform such, it was lawful for particular 
churches to reform themselves. But then I added, " That 

i God used Samuel as a messenger k Colos. iii. 21. 

against Eli for his overmuch indul- 1 Crimini ei tribunus inter castera 

gence to his sons, i Sam. iii. 13 ; and dabat, quod filium juvenem nullius pro- 

yet Samuel himself committed the very bri compertum, extorrem urbe, domo, 

same fault concerning his own sons, penatibus, foro, luce, congressu aequa- 

i Sam. viii. 3, 5. And this indulgence lium prohibitum, in opus servile, prope 

occasioned the change of the civil go- in carcerem, atque in ergastulurn de- 

vernment, as the former was the loss derit. Liv. dec. i. 1. 7. 

of the priesthood. m Deut. xxi. 19. 



Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. the general church (not universally taken, but in these western 
parts) fell into those errors, being swayed in these latter ages 
by the predominant power of the church of Rome, under 
whose government it was for the most part forced." And 
all men of understanding know how oft and how easily an 
overpotent member carries the whole with it in any body, 
natural, politic, or ecclesiastical. 

A. c. p. 5 7. IV. Yea, but A. 0. tells us, " That never any competent 
judge did so censure the church, and indeed that no power 
on earth or in hell itself can so far prevail against the general 
church as to make it err generally in any one point of divine 
truth, and much less to teach any thing by its full authority 
to be a matter of faith which is contrary to divine truth 
expressed or involved in scriptures rightly understood ; and 
that therefore no reformation of faith can be needful in the 
general church, but only in particular churches." And for 
proof of this he cites St. Matt. xvi. and xxviii., St. Luke xxii., 
St. John xiv. and xvi. In this troublesome and quarrelling 
age I am most unwilling to meddle with the erring of the 
church in general ; the church of England is content to pass 
that over ; and though "she tells us that the church of Rome 
hath erred even in matters of faith, yet of the erring of the 
church in general she is modestly silent. But since A. C. 
will needs have it that the whole church did never generally 
err in any one point of faith, he should do well to distinguish 
before he be so peremptory : for if he mean no more than 
that the whole universal church of Christ cannot universally 
err in any one point of faith simply necessary to all men^s 
salvation, he fights against no adversary, that I know, but 
his own fiction ; for the most learned protestants grant it: 
but if he mean that the whole church cannot err in any one 
point of divine truth in general, which, though by sundry 
consequences deduced from the principles, is yet made a point 
of faith, and may prove dangerous to the salvation of some 
which believe it and practise after it, (as his words seem to 
import,) especially if in these the church shall presume to 

n Art. XIX. Spiritu Sancto doceri se per verbum 

o Si demus en-are non posse eccle- Dei patitur. Calvin. Inst. lib. iv. c. 8. 

siam in rebus ad salutem necessariis, . 13. And this also is our sense. Vide 

bic sensus noster est : Ideo hoc esse, sup. . 21. num. V. 
quia abdicata omni sua sapientia, a 

Fisher the Jesuit. 138 

determine without her proper guide, the scripture, as P Bel- Sect. 25. 
larmine says she may and yet not err ; then perhaps it may 
be said, and without any wrong to the catholic church, that 
the whole militant church hath erred in such a point of divine 
truth and of faith : nay, A. C. confesses expressly in his very A. C. p. 58. 
next words, " That the whole church may at some time not 
know all divine truths, which afterwards it may learn by 
study of scripture and otherwise." So then in A. C.'s judg- 
ment the whole militant church may at some time not know 
all divine truths. Now that which knows not all must be 
ignorant of some, and that which is ignorant of some may 
possibly err in one point or other : the rather, because he 
confesses the knowledge of it must be got by learning ; and 
learners may mistake and err, especially where the lesson is 
divine truth out of scripture, out of difficult scripture: for 
were it of plain and easy scripture that he speaks, the whole 
church could not at any time be without the knowledge of it ; 
and for aught I yet see, the whole church militant hath no 
greater warrant against not erring in than against not know- 
ing of the points of divine truth; for in ^St. John xvi. 
there is as large a promise to the church of knowing all 
points of divine truth, as A. C. or any Jesuit j3an produce 
for her not erring in any; and if she may be ignorant or 
mistaken in learning of any point of divine truth, doubtless 
in that state of ignorance she may both err and teach her 
error, yea, and teach that to be divine truth which is not ; 
nay, perhaps teach that as a matter of divine truth which is 
contrary to divine truth, always provided it be not in, any 
point simply fundamental, of which the whole catholic church 
cannot be ignorant, and in which it cannot err, as hath 
before been proved. r 

V. As for the places of scripture which A. C. cites to A. C. p. 57. 
prove that the whole church cannot err generally in any 
one point of divine truth, be it fundamental or not, they 
are known places all of them, and are alleged by A. C. A.C. p. 57. 
three several times in this short tract and to three several 

P Nostra sententia est, ecclesiam ab- sive non. Bellarm. de Eccl. Milit. lib. 

solute non posse errare, nee in rebus iii. c. 14. . 5. 
absolute necessariis, nee in aliis quse n John xvi. 13. 
credenda vel facienda nobis proponit, r Sect. 21. num. V. 
sive habeantur expresse in scripturis, 

134 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. purposes ; here, to prove that the universal church cannot 
A.C. p. 5 3. err; before this, to prove that the tradition of the present 
church cannot err ; after this, to prove that the pope cannot 
A. c. p. 58. err. He should have done well to have added these places a 
and 73- fourth time to prove that general councils cannot err ; for so 
doth both s Stapleton and tBellarmine. Sure A. C. and his 
fellows are hard driven when they must fly to the same places 
for such different purposes ; for a pope may err where a 
council doth not, and a general council may err where the 
catholic church cannot ; and therefore it is not likely that 
these places should serve alike for all. The first place is 
St. Matthew xvi. ; u there Christ told St. Peter, and we 
believe it most assuredly, that hell-gates shall never be able to 
prevail against his church; but that is, that they shall not 
prevail to make the church catholic apostatize and fall quite 
away from Christ, or err in absolute fundamentals, which 
amounts to as much. But the promise reaches not to this, 
that the church shall never err, no, not in the lightest matters 
of faith: for it will not follow, hell-gates shall not prevail 
against the church, therefore hellish devils shall not tempt 
or assault and batter it. And thus St. Augustine x under- 
stood the plafce : " It may fight, (yea and be wounded too,) but 
it cannot be wholly overcome." And Bellarmine himself ap- 
plies it to prove ythat the visible church of Christ cannot 
deficere, err so as quite to fall away. Therefore in his judg- 
ment this is a true and a safe sense of this text of scripture. 
But as for not erring at all in any point of divine truth, and 
so making the church absolutely infallible, that is neither 
a true nor a safe sense of this scripture. And it is very 
remarkable, that whereas this text hath been so much beaten 
upon by writers of all sorts, there is no one Father of the 
church for twelve hundred years after Christ (the counterfeit 
or partial decretals of some popes excepted) that ever con- 
cluded the infallibility of the church out of this place ; but her 
non-deficiency, that hath been and is justly deduced hence : 
and here I challenge A. C. and all that party to shew the 

s Stapl. Relect. pnef. ad lectorem. est. S. August. L. <le Symb. ad Cate- 

t Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. cum. c. 6. 

n Matt. xvi. 1 8. y Bellarm. de Eccl. Milit. lib. iii. 

x Pugnare potest, expugnari nori pot- c. 13. . i. &c. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 135 

contrary if they can. The next place of scripture is z St. Sect. 25. 
Matthew xxviii., the promise of Christ that he will be with 
them to the end of the world. But this, in the general voice of the 
Fathers a of the church, is a promise of assistance and pro- 
tection, not of an infallibility of the church. And b pope Leo 
himself enlarges this presence and providence of Christ to all 
those things which he committed to the execution of his 
ministers ; but no word of infallibility is to be found there : 
and indeed since Christ, according to his promise, is present 
with his ministers in all these things, and that one and a 
chief of these all is the preaching of his word to the people ; 
it must follow that Christ should be present with all his 
ministers that preach his word to make them infallible, which 
daily experience tells us is not so. The third place urged by 
A. C. is c St. Luke xxii., where the prayer of Christ will effect 
no more than his promise hath performed ; neither of them 
implying an infallibility for or in the church against all errors 
whatsoever. And this almost all his own side confess is 
spoken either of St. Peter's person only, or of him and his 
successors d both. Of the church it is not spoken, and there- 
fore cannot prove an unerring power in it : for how can that 
place prove the church cannot err which speaks not at all of 
the church ? And it is observable too, that when the divines 
of Paris expounded this place that Christ here prayed for St. 
Peter as he represented the whole catholic church, and ob- 
tained for it that the faith of the catholic church nunquam 
deficeret, should never so err as quite to fall away, Cellar- 
mine is so stiff for the pope that he says expressly, " This ex- 
position of the Parisians is false/' and that this text cannot be 
meant of the catholic church. Not be meant of it ! then 
certainly it ought not to be alleged as proof of it, as here it 
is by A. C. The fourth place named by A. C. is f St. John A. c p. 57. 

z Matt, xxviii. 21. place of both St. Peter and his suc- 

a S. Hil. in Psal. cxxiv Prosp. deVo- cessors. 

cat. Gent. lib. ii. c. 2. Leo, Serm. 2. de e Quse expositio falsa est, primo quia, 

Resur. Dom. c. 3. et Ep. 31. Isidor. in &c. BelJarm. ibid. . 2. And he says 

Jos. 12. it is false, because the Parisians ex- 

b In omnibus quae ministris suis com- pounded it of the church only : Volunt 

misit exequenda. S. Leo, Epist. 91. c. 2. enim pro sola ecclesia esse oratum. Ibid. 

c Luke xxii. 32. . i. 

d Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 3. f John xiv. 16, 17. 
. Est igitur tertia. He understood the 

K 4 

136 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. xiv., and the consequent place to it, sSt. John xvi. These 
places contain another promise of Christ concerning the 
coming of the Holy Ghost. Thus : That the Comforter shall 
abide with them for ever : that this Comforter is the Spirit of 
truth ; and that this Spirit of truth will lead them into all truth. 
Now this promise, as it is applied to the church consisting of 
all believers which are and have been since Christ appeared 
in the flesh, including the apostles, is h absolute and without 
any restriction ; for the Holy Ghost did lead them into all 
truth, so that no error was to be found in that church ; but, 
as it is appliable to the whole church militant in all succeed- 
ing times, so the promise was made with a limitation, ' namely, 
that the blessed Spirit should abide with the church for ever 
and lead it into all truth ; but not simply into all curious 
truth, no not in or about the faith, but into all truth neces- 
sary to salvation : and against this truth the whole catholic 
church cannot err, keeping herself to the direction of the 
scripture as Christ hath appointed her ; for in this very place 
where the promise is made, that the Holy Ghost shall teach 
you all things, it is added, that he shall bring all things to their 
remembrance. What ! simply all things ? No, but all things 
which Christ had told them, k St. .John xiv.; so there is a 
limitation put upon the words by Christ himself : and if the 
church will not err, it must not ravel curiously into unneces- 
sary truths which are out of the promise, nor follow any other 
guide than the doctrine which Christ hath left behind him 
to govern it : for if it will come to the end, it must keep in 
the way. And Christ, who promised the Spirit should lead, 
/ hath nowhere promised that it shall followjiajeader into all 
truth ; and at least not infallibly, unless you will limit as 
before : so no one of these places can make good A. C.'s 
assertion, " That the whole church cannot err generally in 
any one point of divine truth ;" in absolute foundations ] she 
cannot, in deductions and superstructures she may. 

g John xvi. 13. mirabiles apostoli omnia praesciverunt. 

h Field, de Eccles. lib. iv. c. 2, free Quaecunque enim expediebant, ea illis 

from all error and ignorance of divine significavit gratia Spiritus. Theod. in 

things, i Tim. iii. 14, 15. 
i And Theodoret proceeds further, and k John xiv. 26. 
says, Neque divini prophet*, neque 1 Sect. 21. num. V. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 137 

VI. Now to all that I have said concerning the right Sect. 25. 
which particular churches have to reform themselves when 
the general church cannot for impediments, or will not for 
negligence, which I have proved at large m before, all the 
answer that A. C. gives is, first, Quo judice? who shall beA.C. p. 57. 
judge? And that shall be the scripture and the "primitive 
church ; and by the rules of the one, and to the integrity of 
the other, both in faith and manners, any particular church 
may safely reform itself. 

VII. Secondly, " That no reformation in faith can be 
needful in the general church, but only in particular churches. 
In which case also (he saith) particular churches may not A. C. p. 58. 
take upon them to judge and condemn others of errors in 
faith." Well, how far forth reformation even of faith may 
be necessary in the general church, I have expressed already : 
and for particular churches, I do not say that they must take 
upon them to judge or condemn others of error in faith ; 
that which I say is, they may reform themselves. Now I 
hope to reform themselves and to condemn others are two 
different works, unless it fall out so that by reforming them- 
selves they do by consequence condemn any other that is 
guilty in that point in which they reform themselves ; and so 
far to judge and condemn others is not only lawful but neces- 
sary. A man that lives religiously doth not by and by sit in 
judgment and condemn with his mouth all profane livers ; 
but yet while he is silent his very life condemns them : and I 
hope in this way of judicature A. C. dares not say it is un- 
lawful for a particular church or man to condemn another ; 
and further, whatsoever A. C. can say to the contrary, there 
are divers cases, where heresies are known and notorious, in 
which it will be hard to say (as he doth) that one particular A. C. p. 58. 
church must not judge or condemn another, so far forth at 
least as to abhor and protest against the heresy of it. 

VIII. Thirdly, if one particular church may not judge or 
condemn another, what must then be done where particulars 

m Sect. 24. num. I. II. &c. dum est ? Quid autem si neque apo- 

n Si de modica qupestione disceptatio stoli quidem scripturas reliquissent nobis, 

esset, nonne oporteret in antiquissimas nonne oportebat ordinem sequi tradi- 

recurrere ecclesias, in quibus apostoli tionis, &c. Irenseus advers. Haeres. lib. 

conversati sunt, et ab iis de pfsesenti viii. c. 4. 

quaestione sumere quod certum et liqui- o Sect. 25. num. IV. 

138 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. need reformation? What! why then A. C. tells us, "That 
A. C. p. 58. p ar ti cu l ar churches must in that case (as Irenseus intimateth) 
have recourse to the church of Rome, which hath more power- 
ful principality, and to Pher bishop, who is chief pastor of the 
whole church, as being St. Peter's successor, to whom Christ 
promised the keys, St. Matt, xvi., for whom he prayed that 
his faith might not fail, St. Luke xxii., and whom he charged 
to feed and govern the whole flock, St. John xxi. And this 
(A. C. tells us) he shall never refuse to do in such sort as 
that this neglect shall be a just cause for any particular 
man or church, under pretence of reformation in manners 
or faith, to make a schism or separation from the whole 
general church." 

IX. Well, first, you see where A. C. would have us : "If 
any particular churches differ in points of divine truth, they 
must not judge or condemn each other," saith he. No, take 
heed of that in any case ; that is the office of the universal 
church. And yet he will have it that Rome, which is but a 
particular church, must and ought to judge all other parti- 

X. Secondly, he tells us this is so, " because the church of 
Rome hath more powerful principality than other particular 
churches, and that her bishop is pastor of the whole church." 
To this I answer, that it is most true indeed, the church of 
Rome hath had, and hath yet, more powerful principality 
than any other particular church, but she hath not this power 
from Christ : the Roman patriarch, by ecclesiastical consti- 
tutions, might, perhaps, have a primacy of order; but for 
principality of power, the patriarchs were as even, as equal, 
as the 9 apostles were before them. The truth is, this "more 

P And after he saith, p. 58, " That aliis vero tanquam delegatis, quibus non 

the bishop of Rome is and ought to be succederetur. This is handsomely said 

the judge of particular churches in this to men easy of belief: but that the 

case." highest power ecclesiastical, confessed to 

q Summa potestas ecclesiastica non be given to the other apostles as well 

est data solum Petro, sed etiam aliis as to St. Peter, was given to St. Peter 

apostolis. Omnes enim poterant dicere only, as to an ordinary pastor, whose 

ilhid S. Pauli, sollidtudo omnium eccle- successors should have the same power, 

siarum, Qc. 2 Cor. xi. 28. Bellarm. de which the successors of the rest should 

Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 9. . Respondeo not have, can never be proved out of 

pontificatum Where then is the dif- scripture; nay, (I will give them their 

ference between St. Peter and the rest ? own latitude.") it can never be proved 

In this, saith Bellarmine, ibid., Quia by any tradition of the whole catholic 

haec potestas data est Petro, ut ordina- church : and till it be proved, Bellar- 

rio pastori, cui perpetuo succederetur ; mine's handsome expression cannot be 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

powerful principality" the Roman bishops r got under the Sect. 25. 
emperors after they became Christians; and they used the 
matter so that they grew big enough to oppose, nay, to 
depose the emperors, by the same power which they had 
given them. And after this, other particular churches, espe- 
cially here in the west, submitted themselves to them for 
succour and protection's sake. And this was one main cause 
which swelled Rome into this more powerful principality, and 
not any right given by Christ to make that s prelate pastor 
of the whole church. I know Bellarmine makes much ado 
about it, and will needs fetch it out of l St. Augustine, who 
says indeed that " in the church of Rome there did always 
flourish the principality of an apostolic chair ;" or, if you 
will, the apostolic chair in relation to the west and south 
parts of the church, all the other four apostolic chairs being 
in the east. Now this no man denies that understands the 
state and story of the church ; and u Calvin confesses it ex- 
pressly : nor is the word principatus so great, nor were the 
bishops of those times so little, as that principes and princi- 
patus are not commonly given them both by the x Greek and 
the Latin Fathers of this great and learnedest age of the 
church, made up of the fourth and fifth hundred years; 
always understanding principatus of their spiritual power, and 
within the limits of their several jurisdictions, which perhaps 
now and then they did occasionally exceed. And there is 
not one word in St. Augustine, That this principality of the 
apostolic chair in the church of Rome was then, or ought to 
be now, exercised over the whole church of Christ, as Bellar- 

believed by me ; for St. Cyprian hath bishop in general, Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 

told me long since that episcopatus unus 1 7. Ascribuntur episcopo Swrjo-re/o, ?}- 

est (for as much as belongs to the call- /ia, KOI ctpx^j imperium, thronus, et 

ing) as well as apostolatus. Lib. de principatus ad regimen animal-urn. Et 

simp. Praelato. TOJOUTTJ apx'n, hujusmodi imperium 

r Sect. 25. num. XII. And he also speaks of a bishop, Greg. 

s De Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 9. . An- Nazianz. Orat. 20. Nor were these 

gustinus epistola. any titles of pride in bishops then ; for 

t Epist. 162. In Romana ecclesia sem- St. Greg. Nazianzen, who challenges 

per apostolicae cathedrae viguit princi- these titles to himself, Orat. 1 7, was so 

patus. devout, so mild, and so humble, that 

u Quia opinio invaluit fundatam esse rather than the peace of the church 

hanc ecclesiam a S. Petro ; itaque in should be broken, he freely resigned the 

occidente sedes apostolica honoris causa great patriarchate of Constantinople, and 

vocabatur. Calv. lib. iv. c. 6. . 16. retired; and this in the first council 

x Princeps ecclesiae, S. Hilar. de Trin. of Constantinople, and the second ge- 

lib. viii. princ. And he speaks of a neraL 

140 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. mine insinuates there, and as A. C. would have it here. And 
to prove that St. Augustine did not intend by principatus 
here to give the Roman bishop any power out of his own 
limits, (which, God knows, were far short of the whole church,) 
I shall make it most manifest out of the very same epistle. 
For afterwards, saith St. Augustine, when the pertinacy of 
the Donatists could not be restrained by the African bishops 
only, " y they gave them leave to be heard by foreign bishops." 
And after that he hath these words : " z And yet perad ven- 
ture Melciades, the bishop of the Roman church, with his 
colleagues the transmarine bishops, non debuit, ought not to 
usurp to himself this judgment, which was determined by 
seventy African bishops, Tigisitanus sitting primate. And 
what will you say if he did not usurp this power? for the 
emperor being desired sent bishops judges, which should sit 
with him and determine what was just upon the whole cause." 
In which passage there are very many things observable. 
As, first, that the Roman prelate came not in till there was 
leave for them to go to transmarine bishops. Secondly, that 
if the pope had come in without this leave, it had been an 
usurpation. Thirdly, that when he did thus come in, not by 
his own proper authority, but by leave, there were other 
bishops made judges with him. Fourthly, that these other 
bishops were appointed and sent by the emperor and his 
power ; that which the pope will least of all endure. Lastly, 
lest the pope and his adherents should say this was an usur- 
pation in the emperor, a St. Augustine tells us a little before, 
in the same epistle still, that "this doth chiefly belong ad 
curam ejus, to the emperor's care and charge, and that he 
is to give an account to God for it." And Melciades did sit 
and judge the business with all Christian prudence and mode- 
ration. So at this time the Roman prelate was not received 
as pastor of the whole church, say A. C. what he please : nor 
had he any supremacy over the other patriarchs: and for 

y Pergant ad fratres et collegas nos- fuerit terminatum ? Quid quod nee ipse 

tros transmarinarum ecclesiarum epi- usurpavit : rogatus quippe imperator, 

scopes, &c. S. August. Ep. 1 62. judices misit episcopos, qui cum eo sede- 

z An forte non debuit Romanae eccle- rent, et de tota ilia causa, quod justum 

siae Melciades episcopus cum collegis videretur, statuerent, &c. S. Aug. ibid, 
transmarinis episcopis illud sibi usur- a Ad cujus curam, de qua rationem 

pare judicium quod ab Afris septua- Deo redditurus est, res ilia maxiine per- 

ginta, ubi primas Tigisitanus praesedit, tinebat. S. August. Ep. 162. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 141 

this, were all other records of antiquity silent, the civil law Sect. -25. 
is proof enough, (and that is a monument of the primitive 
church.) The text there is, b A patriarcha non datur appel- 
latio, " from a patriarch there lies no appeal." No appeal 
therefore every patriarch was alike supreme in his own 
patriarchate ; therefore the pope then had no supremacy 
over the whole church ; therefore certainly not then received 
as universal pastor. And St. Gregory himself, speaking of 
appeals, and expressly citing the laws themselves, says plainly, 
" c That the patriarch is to put a final end to those causes 
which come before him by appeal from bishops and arch- 
bishops :" but then he adds, " d That where there is nor 
metropolitan nor patriarch of that diocess, there they are to 
have recourse to the see apostolic, as being the head of all 
churches." Where, first, this implies plainly, that if there 
be a metropolitan or a patriarch in those churches, his judg- 
ment is final, and there ought to be no appeal to Rome. 
Secondly, it is as plain, that in those ancient times of the 
church government Britain was never subject to the see of 
Rome ; for it was one of the e six diocesses of the west empire, 
and had a primate of its own : nay, f John Capgrave, one of 
your own, and learned for those times, and long before him 
William of Malmsbury, tell us that " pope Urban the Second, 
at the council held at Bari in Apulia, accounted my worthy 
predecessor St. Anselm as his own compeer, and said he was 
the apostolic and patriarch of the other world," (so he then 
termed this island.) Now the Britons having a primate of 
their own, (which is greater than a metropolitan,) yea, a 
s patriarch, if you will, he could not be appealed from to 

b Nam contra horum antistitum (de omnium ecclesiarum caput est, causa 

patriarchis loquitur) sententias, non esse audienda est, c. S. Greg. ibid, 

locum appellation! a majoribus nostris e Notitia provinciarum occidentalium, 

constitutum est. Cod. L. I. tit. 4. 1. 29. ex per Guidum Pancirolum, lib. ii. c. 48. 

editione Gothofredi Si non rata ha- f Hunc cunctis liberalium artium dis- 

buerit utraque pars, quae judicata sunt, ciplinis eruditum pro magistro tenea- 

tunc beatissimus patriarcha direceseos mus, et quasi comparem, velut alterius 

illius, inter eos audiat, &c. Nulla parte orbis apostolicum et patriarcham, &c. 

ejus sententiae contradicere valente. Au- Jo. Capgravius de Vitis Sanctorum, in 

then. Collat. 9. tit. 15. c. 22. Vita S. Anselmi ; et Guil. Malmsbu- 

c Et ille (scilicet patriarcha) secun- riens. de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum. 

dum canones, et leges prsebeat finem. p. 223. edit. Francof. 1601. 

And there he cites the novel itself. g Ibi (Cantuariae id est) prima sedes 

S. Greg. lib. xi. Indict. 2. Ep. 54. archiepiscopi habetur, qui est totius An- 

d Si dictum fuerit, quod nee metro- gliae primas et patriarcha. Guil. Malms- 

politanum habeat, nee patriarcham : di- buriensis in Prolog, lib. i. de Gestis 

cendum est, quod a sede apostolica, quae Pontificum Anglorum, p. 195. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. Rome, by St. Gregory's own doctrine. Thirdly, it will be 
hard for any man to prove there were any churches then in 
the world which were not under some either patriarch or 
metropolitan. Fourthly, if any such were, it is gratis dictum, 
and impossible to be proved, that all such churches, wherever 
seated in the world, were obliged to depend on Rome ; for 
manifest it is that the bishops which were ordained in places 
without the limits of the Roman empire (which places they 
commonly called h barbarous) were all to be ordained, and 
therefore most probable to be governed by the patriarch of 
Constantinople. And for Rome^s being the head of all 
churches, I have said enough to that in divers parts of this 

XL And since I am thus fallen upon the church of Afric, 
I shall borrow another reason from the practice of that 
church, why by principatus St. Augustine neither did nor 
could mean any principality of the church, or bishop of Rome 
over the whole church of Christ. For, as the acts of councils 
and stories go, the African prelates finding that all succeed- 
ing popes were not of Melciades his temper, set themselves 
to assert their own liberties, and held it out stoutly against 
Zozimus, Boniface the First, and Coelestine the First, who 
were successively popes of Rome. At last it was concluded, 
in the sixth council of Carthage, (wherein were assembled 
two hundred and seventeen bishops, of which St. Augustine 
himself was one,) that they would not give way to such a 
manifest encroachment upon their rights and liberties ; and 
thereupon gave present notice to pope Coelestine to forbear 
sending his officers amongst them, ui lest he should seem to 
induce the swelling pride of the world into the church of 
Christ." And this is said to have amounted into a formal 
separation from the church of Rome, and to have continued 
for the space of somewhat more than one hundred years. 
Now that such a separation there was of the African church 
from Rome, and a reconciliation after, stands upon the credit 

h^Praeterea et qui sunt eV TOIS &ap/3a- is meant in solo barbarorum. Annot. 

pt/cots, in barbarico, episcopi a sanctis- ibid. 

simo throno sanctissimae Constantino- i Ne fumosum typhum seculi in eccle- 

politanae ecclesiae ordinentur. Codex siam Christi videatur inducere, &c. 

Canonum Ecclesiae universe. Can. 206. Epist. Concil. Afric. ad Papam Coelesti- 

And Justellus proves it there at large, imm Primum. Apud Nicolin. Concil. 

that by in barbarico, in that canon, torn. i. p. 844. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 143 

and authority of two public instruments extant both among Sect. 25. 
the ancient councils : the one is an k Epistle from Boniface 
the Second, in whose time the reconciliation to Rome is said 
to be made by Eulalius, then bishop of Carthage, but the 
separation instigante diabolo, by the temptation of the devil ; 
the other is an } Exemplar Precum, or copy of the petition of 
the same Eulalius, in which he damns and curses all those 
his predecessors which went against the church of Rome : 
amongst which Eulalius must needs curse St. Augustine ; and 
pope Boniface, accepting this submission, must acknowledge 
that St. Augustine and the rest of that council deserved this 
curse, and died under it, as violating rectce fidei regulam, the 
rule of the right faith, (so the Exemplar Precum begins,) by 
refusing the pope's authority. I will not deny but that there 
are divers reasons given by the learned Romanists and re- 
formed writers for and against the truth and authority of 
both these instruments: but because this is too long to be 
examined here, I will say but this, and then make my use 
of it to my present purpose, giving the church of Rome free 
leave to acknowledge these instruments to be true or false, 
as they please : that which I shall say is this ; These instru- 
ments are let stand in all editions of the councils and epistles 
decretal ; as for example, in the old edition by Isidore, anno 
1524; and in another old edition of them printed anno 1530; 
and in that which was published by P. Crabbe, anno 1538; 
and in the edition of Valentinus Joverius, anno 1555 ; and 
in that by Surius, anno 1567; and in the edition at Venice, 
by Nicolinus, anno 1585 : and in all of these without any 
note or censure upon them. And they are in the edition of 
Binius too, anno 1618 ; but there is a censure upon them, to 
keep a quarter, it may be, with m Baronius, who was the first 
(I think) that ever quarrelled them, and he doth it tartly. 
And since, n Bellarmine follows the same way, but more 
doubtfully. This is that which I had to say. And the use 
which I shall make of these instruments, whether they be 

k Epist. Bonifacii II. apud Nicol. n Valde mihi illae epistolae suspectse 

Concil. torn. ii. p. 544. sunt. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. 

1 Exemp. Precum apud Nicolin. ibid. c. 25. . Respondeo primum. Sed si 

p. 525. forte illae epistolae verae sunt, nihil enirn 

m Baron. Annal. an. ad 419. num. affirmo, &c. Ibid. . ult. 
93, 94- 

144 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. true or false, is this : They are either true or false, that is 
of necessity. If they be false, then Boniface the Second, and 
his accomplices at Rome, or some for them, are notorious 
forgers, and that of records of great consequence concerning 
the government and peace of the whole church of Christ, and 
to the perpetual infamy of that see ; and all this foolishly, 
and to no purpose : for if there were no such separation as 
these records mention of the African churches from the 
Roman, to what end should Boniface, or any other, counter- 
feit an epistle of his own, and a submission of Eulalius ? On 
the other side, if these instruments be true, (as the sixth 
council of Carthage, against all other arguments, makes me 
incline to believe they are, in substance at least, though per- 
haps not in all circumstances,) then it is manifest that the 
church of Afric separated from the church of Rome ; that 
this separation continued above one hundred years ; that the 
church of Afric made this separation in a national council of 
their own, which had in it two hundred and seventeen bishops ; 
that this separation was made (for aught appears) only be- 
cause they at Rome were too ready to entertain appeals from 
the church of Afric, as appears in the case of Appiarius, 
who then appealed thither; that St. Augustine, Eugenius, 
Fulgentius, and all those bishops and other martyrs which 
suffered in the Vandalic persecution, died in the time of 
this separation ; that if this separation were not just, but a 
schism, then these famous Fathers of the church died (for 
aught appears) in actual and unrepented schism, Pand out of 
the church ; and if so, then how comes St. Augustine to be 
and be accounted a saint all over the Christian world, and at 
Rome itself? But if the separation were just, then is it far 
more lawful for the church of England by a national council 
to cast off the pope's usurpation (as ^she did) than it was 
for the African church to separate ; because then the African 
church excepted only against the pride of Rome r in case of 

o And so the council of Carthage norum martyrum agmina, qui in per- 

sent word to pope Coelestine plainly, secutione Vandalica pro fide catholica, 

that in admitting such appeals he brake &c. Baron. Annal. an. 419. num. 93. 

the decrees of the council of Nice, et Binius in Notis ad Epist. Bonifacii II. 

Epist. Concil. Afric. ad Coelestinum, ad Eulalium. 

c. 105. apud Nicol. Cone. torn. i. p. 844. q Sect. 24. num. V. 

P Plane ex ecclesias catholic* albo r Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. 

expungenda fuissent sanctorum Africa- c. 25. . 2. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 145 

appeals, and two other canons less material, but the church Sect. 25. 
of England excepts (besides this grievance) against many 
corruptions in doctrine belonging to the faith, with which 
Borne at that time of the African separation was not tainted. 
And I am out of all doubt that St. Augustine and those 
other famous men in their generations durst not thus have 
separated from Rome, had the pope had that powerful prin- 
cipality over the whole church of Christ, and that by Christ's 
own ordinance and institution, as A. C. pretends he had. A.C. p. 58. 

XII. I told you a little s before that the popes grew under 
the emperors till they had overgrown them : and now, lest 
A. C. should say I speak it without proof, I will give you a 
brief touch of the shurch story in that behalf, and that from 
the beginning of the emperors 1 becoming Christians to the 
time of Charles the Great, which contains about five hundred 
years : for so soon as the emperors became Christian, the 
church (which before was kept under by persecutions) began 
to be put in bettar order. For the calling and authority of 
bishops over the inferior clergy, that was a thing of known 
use and benefit for preservation of unity and peace in the 
church. And so much * St. Jerome tells us, though, being 
none himself, he was no great friend to bishops. And this 
was so settled in the minds of men from the very infancy of 
the Christian cnurch, as that it had not been to that time 
contradicted b} any. So that then there was no controversy 
about the callng; all agreed upon that: the only difficulty 
was to accommodate the places and precedencies of bishops 
among themselves, for the very necessity of order and govern- 
ment. To do this, the most equal and impartial way was, 
that " as the church is in the commonwealth, not the com- 

8 Sect. 25. nun. X. same epistle he acknowledges it; Tra- 

t Quod autenr postea unus electus ditionem esse apostolicam ; nay, more 

est qui caeteris jrseponeretur, in schis- than so, he affirms plainly that uhi non 

matis remedium factum est, ne unus- est sacerdos, non est ecclesia. S. Hieron. 

quisque ad se tnhens Christ! ecclesiam advers. Luciferian. And in that place 

rumperet. Nam et Alexandrine a Marco most manifest it is, that St. Jerome hy 

evangelista presH'teri semper unum ex sacerdos jneans a bishop; for he speaks 

se electum in excellentiori gradu col- de sacerdote qui potestatem hahet ordi- 

locatum, episcopum nominabant, &c. nandi, which, in St. Jerome's own judg- 

S. Hieron. in Epist. ad Evagrium. So, ment, no mere priest had, but a bishop 

even according to St. Jerome, bishops only. S. Hieron. Epist. ad Evagrium. 

had a very ancient and honourable de- So, even with him, no bishop and no 

scent in the church, from St. Mark the church, 
evangelist: and about the end of the 

146 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. monwealth in it," (as "Optatus tells us,) so the honours of 
the church should x follow the honours of the state : and so 
it was insinuated, if not ordered (as appears) by the canons 
of the councils of Chalcedon and Antioch. And this was the 
very fountain of papal greatness, the pope having his resi- 
dence in the great imperial city. But precedency is one 
thing, and authority is another : it was thought fit therefore, 
though (as >'St. Cyprian speaks) episcopatus unus est, the call- 
ing of a bishop be one and the same, that yet among bishops 
there should be a certain subordination and subjection. The 
empire therefore being cast into several Divisions (which they 
then called diocesses), every diocess contained several pro- 
vinces, every province several bishoprics: the chief of the 
diocess (in that larger sense) was called efapx.0?, and some- 
times a patriarch ; the chief of a province, a metropolitan : 
next, the bishops in their several diocessos (as we now use 
that word) ; among these there was effectual subjection re- 
spectively, grounded upon canon and positive law, in their 
several quarters, but over them none at all ;\ all the difference 
there was but honorary, not authoritative, j If the ambition 
of some particular persons did attempt now and then to 
break these bounds, it is no marvel ; for no palling can sanc- 
tify all that have it. And Socrates tells us ithat in this way 
the bishops of Alexandria and Rome advanced themselves to 
a great height, irtpa rrjs icptoa-vvrjs, even beyond the quality 
of bishops. Now upon view of story it will appear, that what 
advantage accrued to Alexandria was gotten jby the violence 
of Theophilus, patriarch there, a man of exceeding great 
learning, and of no less violence : and he made no little 
advantage out of this, that the empress Euc^oxia used his 
help for the casting of St. Chrysostom out of Constantinople. 
But the Roman prelates grew, by a steady and constant 
watchfulness upon all occasions, to increase t)ie honour of 
that see, interposing and z assuming to themselves to be mn- 
dices canonutn (as St. Gregory Nazianzen speaks), defenders 
and restorers of the canons of the church ; which was a fair 
pretence, and took extremely well. But yet the world took 

u Non enim respub. est in ecclesia, y S. Cyprian, lib. de Simp. Praelat. 
sed ecclesia in repub. Optat. lib. iii. z "n* A*ymwt] Ut aiunt, sive se jac- 

x Concil. Chalcedon. can. 9. et act. tantesse. Greg. Nazianz. Carm. de Vita 

xy i' sua, p. 26. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 147 

notice of this their aim : for in all contestations betwixt the Sect. 25. 
east and the west, which were nor small nor few, the western 
bishops objected levity to the eastern, and they again arro- 
gancy to the bishops of the west, as a Bilius observes, and 
upon very warrantable testimonies. For all this the bishop 
of Rome continued in good obedience to the emperor, endur- 
ing his censures and judgments : and being chosen by the 
clergy and people of Borne, he accepted from the emperor 
the ratification of that choice ; insomuch that, about the year 
579, when all Italy was on fire with the Lombards, and 
b Pelagius the Second, constrained through the necessity of 
the times, contrary to the example of his predecessors, to 
enter upon the popedom without the emperor's leave, St. 
Gregory, then a deacon, was shortly after sent on embassy to 
excuse it. About this time brake out the ambition of c John, 
patriarch of Constantinople, affecting to be universal bishop. 
He was countenanced in this by Mauricius the emperor, but 
sourly opposed by Pelagius and St. Gregory ; insomuch that 
d St. Gregory says plainly, " That this pride of his shews that 
the times of Antichrist were near." So as yet (and this was 
now upon the point of six hundred years after Christ) there 
\vas no universal bishop, no one monarch over the whole J-, 
militant church. But Mauricius being deposed and murdered 
by Phocas, Phosas conferred upon e Boniface the Third that 

a Orieutalibus lentas, occidental} bus bishop of Rome nor any other ought to 

arrogantia invicem objecta est. Bilius take on him that title. Cura totius 

Annot. in S. Greg. Nazianz. Vitam, ecclesue et principatus S. Petro commit- 

nurn. 153. Quid pus est occidental! titur, et tamen universalis apostolus non 

supercilio ? ex S. Basil., c. vocatur- S. Greg. lib. iv. epist. 76. 

b Haec una fuit ;ausa quare Pelagius (Therefore neither is his successor uni- 

injussu principis lontifex creatus sit, versal bishop.) Nunquid ego hac in re 

quum extra obsessam ab hoste urbem propriam causam defendo ? Nunquid 

initti quispiam noa posset, &c. Postea specialem injuriam vindico ? Et nou 

itaque ad placandum imperatorem Gre- magis causam omnipotentis Dei et uni- 

gorius diaconus, &c. Platina in Vita versalis ecclesiae ? Where he plainly de- 

Pelagii II. et Onuph. ibid. uies that he speaks in his own cause, 

c Onuph. in Plat, in Vita Bonif. III. or in the cause of his see. Per vene- 

d In hac ejus saperbia quid aliud nisi randam Chalcedonensem synodum hoc 

propinqua jam Antichrist! esse tempora nomen Rom. pontifici oblatum est, sed 

designatur. S. Greg. lib. iv. epist. 78. nullus eorum unquam hoc singularitatis 

e It maybe they will say, St. Gregory vocabulum assurnpsit, nee uti consensit, 

did not inveigh against the thing, but ne dum privatum aliquid daretur uni, 

the person; that John of Constantinople honore debito sacerdotes privarentur 

should take that upon him which be- universi, &c. ; where he plainly says 

longed to the pope ; but it is manifest the Roman bishops rejected this title, 

by St. Gregory's own text, that he speaks Ibid. And yet for all this, pope Gre- 

against the thing itself, that neither the gory VII. delivers it as one of his dic- 

L 2 

148 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. very honour which two of his predecessors had declaimed 
against as f monstrous and blasphemous, if not antichristian. 
Where, by the way, either those two popes, Pelagius and 
St. Gregory, erred in this weighty business about an universal 
bishop over the whole church ; or if they did not err, Boni- 
face and the rest which after him took it upon them were in 
their very predecessor's judgment antichristian, But to pro- 
ceed. sAs yet the right of election or ratification of the 
pope continued in the emperor ; but thdn the Lombards grew 
so great in Italy, and the empire was so infested with Sara- 
cens, and such changes happened in all parts of the world, as 
that neither for the present the homage of the pope was 
useful to the emperor, nor the protection of the emperor 
available for the pope. By this means ihe bishop of Rome 
was left to play his own game by himself; a thing which, as 
it pleased him well enough, so both he &nd his successors 
made great advantage by it: for being grown to that emi- 
nence by the emperor, and the greatnes^ of that city and 
place of his abode, he found himself the mo^p free, the greater 
the tempest was that beat upon the other.) And then, first, 
h he set himself to alienate the hearts of ihe Italians from 
the emperor; next, he opposed himself aglinst him. And 
about the year seven hundred and ten popelConstantine the 
First did also first of all openly confront \Philippicus the 
emperor in defence of images, as iOnuphrius \tells us. After 
him k Gregory the Second and the Third took up his example, 
and did the like by Leo Isaurus. By this timq the Lombards 
began to pinch very close, and to vex on all Bides not Italy 

tates, in a council held at Rome about tenderet, quod supenoribus temporibus 

the year 1076, Quod solus Roraanus fere magis cum ponqficibus quam cum 

pontifex jure Aic&tnr universalis. Baron, imperatoribus sensisient ingressurum 

Annal. ad an. 1076. num. 31 et 32. Romam interficere cojstituerant. (And 

f Absit a cordibus Christianorum no- the emperor's own gorernor was fain to 

men istud blasphemise. S. Greg. lib. iv. be defended from thfc emperor's own 

epist. 76., In isto scelesto vocabulo con- soldiers by the pope's power, who had 

sentire, nihil est aliud quam fidem per- gotten interest in th&n against their 

dere. Ibid. lib. iv. epist. 83. own master.) Platina ia Vita Johan.VI. 

% Vana tune habebatur cleri et po- Absimarus was then eraperor. 
puli electio, nisi aut imperatores, aut i Primus omnium Uom. pontificum 
eorum exarchi confirmasseut. Plat, in imperatori Graeco Philippico in os re- 
Vita Severini I. sistere palam ausus est. Onuph. in Plat. 

h Quum Theophylactus exarchus im- in Vita Constant! ni I. 
peratoris Italiam peteret, milites Itali, k Platina in Vita Gregor. II. et HI. 
veriti ne quid mali ejus adventus por- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 149 

only, but Rome too. This drives the pope to seek a new Sect. 25. 
patron ; and very fitly he meets with Charles Martel in 
France, that famous warrior against the Saracens ; ^im he 
implores in defence of the church against the Lombards. 
This address seems very advisedly taken, at least it proves 
very fortunate to them both ; m for in short time it dissolved 
the kingdom of the Lombards in Italy, which had then stood 
two hundred and four years, which was the pope's security, 
and it brought the crown of France into the house of Charles, 
and shortly after the western empire. And now began the 
pope to be great indeed ; for by the bounty of n Pepin, son ~-f- 
of Charles, that which was taken from the Lombards was 
given to the pope, so that now of a bishop he became a 
temporal prince. But when Charles the Great had set up 
the western empire, then he resumed the ancient and original 
power of the ernpeior, to govern the church, to call councils, 
to order papal elections. And this power continued in his 
posterity ; for this right of the emperor was in force and use 
in Gregory the Seventh's time, who was confirmed in the 
popedom by Henry the Fourth, whom he afterward deposed : 
and it might hava continued longer, if the succeeding empe- 
rors had had abilities enough to secure or vindicate their 
own right ; but the pope, keeping a strong council about 
him, and meeting with some weak princes, and they ofttimes 
distracted with *reat and dangerous wars, grew stronger, till 
he got the better. So this is enough to shew how the popes 
climbed up by 1he emperors till they overtopped them ; which 
is all I said before, and have now proved. And this was 
about the yea: 1073 ? (f r ^ ne whole popedom of Gregory 
the Seventh was begun and ended witHri the reign of William 
the Conqueror.) Yet was it carried n succeeding times with 
great changes of fortune and different success ; the emperor 
sometimes plucking from the pope, and the Ppope from the 

1 Ut laboranti Romae et ecclesiae pri- o Imperator in gratiam cum Gregorio 

mo quoque termore auxilium ferret, rediit, eundemque in pontificatu confir- 

&c. Platin. in Vita Greg. III. mavit, lit turn imperatorum mos erat. 

m Quae res seniel incepta cum Longo- Plat, in Vita Gregor. Septim. 

bardici regni excdio finita est. Onuph. P Multi deinde fuerunt imperatores 

in Plat, in Vita Constantini Primi. Hen. similiores, quam Jul. Caesari, quos 

n Redditus itique Romanis exarcha- subigere non fuit difficile, dum domi 

tus est, quicquid Padum et Apenninum rerum omnium securi, &c. Calv. Instit. 

interjacet, &c. Plat, in Vita Stephan. lib. iv. c. n. . 13. 

L 3 

150 Archbishop Land against 

Sect. 25. emperor, winning and losing ground, as their spirits, abilities, 
aids, and opportunities were, till at the last the pope settled 
himself upon the grounds laid by q Gregory the Seventh, in 
the great power which he now uses in and over these parts of 
the Christian world. 

XIII. Thirdly, A. C. knowing it is not enough to say 

this, " That the pope is pastor of the whole church," labours 
to prove it. And first he tells us that Irenaeus intimates so 
much, but he doth not tell us where ; and he is much scanted 
of ancient proof, if Irenseus stand alone. Besides, Irenseus 
was a bishop of the Gallican church, and a very unlikely man 
to captivate the liberty of that church under the more power- 
ful principality of Rome. And how can we have better evi- 
dence of his judgment touching that j^incipality than the 
actions of his life I When pope Victor Excommunicated the 
Asian churches ddpoco?, r all at a blow, wp not Irenseus the 
chief man that reprehended him for it \ \. very unmeet and 
undutiful thing sure it had been in Irenes, in deeds to tax 
him of rashness and inconsiderateness, wh<^n in words A. C. 
would have to be acknowledged by him "I the supreme and 
infallible pastor of the universal church." vBut the place of 
Irenseus which A. C. means (I think) is this, where he uses 
these words indeed, but short of A. O.'s senselof it : " s To this 
church," he speaks of Borne, " propter potemorem principali- 
tatem, for the more powerful principality o^ it, it is neces- 
sary that every church, that is, the faithful) undique, round 
A. C. p. 58. about, should have recourse." " Should have reiourse," so A. C. 

q For in a synod at Rome about the liber canonicus hateatur absque illius 

year 1076, pope Gregory the Seventh authoritate." " Quod sententia illius 

established certain brief conclusions, a nullo debet retraction, et ipse omnium 

twenty-seven in number, upon which solus retractare potes." " Quod Rom. 

stands almost all the greatness of the ecclesia nunquam eiravit, nee in per- 

papacy. These conclusions are called petuum, scriptura testante, errabit." 

dictatus papce. And they are reckoned " Quod Rom. pgutfex, si canonice 

up by Baronius in the year 1076. num. fuerit ordinatus, meritis B. Petri in- 

31, 32, &c But whether this dictator- dubitanter efficitur stnctus." "Quod 

ship did now first invade the church, a fidelitate iniquorun subditos potest 

I cannot certainly say. The chief absolvere." 

of those propositions follow here. r Euseb. lib. v. c. 3 1. 

" Quod solus Rom. pontifex jure dica- s Ad hanc ecclesian propter poten- 

tur universalis." " Quod solius papse tiorem principalitatem, necesse est om- 

pedes omnes principes deosculentur." nem con venire ecclesiam, i. e. eos qui 

" Quod liceat illi imperatores depo- sunt undique fideles : in qua semper 

nere." " Quod nulla synodus absque ab his qui sunt undique, conservata 

praecepto ejus debet generalis vocari." est ea quae est ab apostolis traditio. 

" Quod nulhim capitulum, nullusque Iren. lib. iii. c. 3. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 151 

translates it ; and what doth this avail him ? Very great Sect. 25. 
reason was there in Irenseus his time, that upon any differ- 
ence arising in the faith, omnes undique fideles, all the faith- 
ful, or if you will, all the churches round about, should have 
recourse, that is, resort to Rome, being the imperial city; 
and so a church of more powerful principality than any other 
at that time in those parts of the world. Well, will this 
exalt Rome to be the head of the church universal \ What 
if the states and policies of the world be much changed since, 
and this conveniency of resorting to Rome be quite ceased ? 
then is not Rome divested of her more powerful principality? 
But the meaning of A. C. is, we must so have recourse to 
Rome as to submit our faith to hers ; and then, not only in 
Irenseus his time, but through all times reform ourselves by 
her rule : that is. all the faithful, not undique, round about, 
but ubique, everywhere, must agree with Rome in point of 
faith. This he means, and Rome may thank him for it ; but 
this Irenseus saich not, nor will his words bear it, nor durst 
A. C. therefore jonstrue him so, but was content to smooth 
it over with this ambiguous phrase, " of having recourse to 
Rome ;" yet this is a place as much stood upon by them as 
any other in al antiquity. And should I grant them their 
own sense, " That all the faithful every where must agree 
with Rome,' 1 (which I may give, but can never grant,) yet were 
not this saying any whit prejudicial to us now. For, first, 
here is a powerful principality ascribed to the church of 
Rome ; and that no man of learning doubts but the church 
of 'Rome had within its own patriarchate and jurisdiction, 
and that was very large, containing *all the provinces in the 
diocess of Italy (in the old sense of the word diocess) ; which 
provinces the lawyers and others term suburUcarias. There 
were ten of them ; the three islands, Sicily, Corsica, and 
Sardinia ; and the other seven upon the firm land of Italy : 
and this (I take it) is plain in Rufinus ; for he living shortly 
after the Kicene council, as he did, and being of Italy, as he 
was, he might very well know the bounds of that patriarch's 
jurisdiction as it was then practised ; u and he says expressly, 

t Ed. Breiewood Of the jurisdiction u Apud Alexaudriam, ut in urbe 
and limits of the pati-iarchs in the time Roma, vetusta consuetude servetur, ut 
of the Nicene council, ad. Qu. i. M.S. ille jEgypti, ut hie suburbicariarum 


152 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. " That, according to the old custom, the Eoman patriarch's 
charge was confined within the limits of the suburbicarian 
churches. To avoid the force of this testimony, x cardinal 
Perron lays load upon Rufinus ; for he charges him with 
passion, ignorance, and rashness : and one piece of his igno- 
rance is, that he hath ill translated the canon of the council 
of Nice. Now be that as it may, I neither do nor can ap- 
prove his translation of that canon ; nor can it be easily 
proved that he purposely intended a translation : all that I 
urge is, that Rufinus, living in that time and place, was very 
like well to know and understand the limits and bounds of 
that patriarchate of Rome in which he lived. Secondly, here 
is, That it had potentiorem, a more powerful principality than 
other churches had. And that the protestants grant too ; 
and that not only because the Roman prelate was ordine 
primus, first in order and degree, which sime one must be 
to avoid confusion ; " ybut also because th^ Roman see had 
won a great deal of credit, and gained a gr<jat deal of power 
to itself in church affairs : because while W Greek, yea, 
and the African churches too, were turbulent and distracted 
with many and dangerous opinions, the church of Rome all 
that while, and a good while after Irenseus jtoo, was more 
calm and constant to the truth." Thirdly, help is a necessity 
(say they) required, that every church, that Is, the faithful 
which are every where, agree with that churcji. But what ! 
simply with that church whatever it do or believe ? No, 
nothing less : for Irenseus adds, " with that church in qua, in 
which is conserved that tradition which was deljvered by the 
apostles." And God forbid but it should be necessary for all 
churches and all the faithful to agree with that lancient apo- 
stolic church in all those things in which it l^eeps to the 
doctrine and discipline delivered by the apostles. \ In Irenseus 
his time it kept these better than any other chinch, and by 
this in part obtained potentiorem principalitatem\ a greater 
\i power than other churches, but not ovex^l^lther^churches. 
And (as they understand Irenaeus) a necessity Uy upon all 

ecclesiarum solicitudinem gerat. Rufin. se opiniomim dissensionikis tumultua- 

Eccles. Hist. lib. i. c. 6. rentur, hsec sedatior aliis, et minus tur- 

x Perron's Reply, lib. ii. c. 6. bulenta fuerit. Calvin. Instit. lib. iv. 

y Quia cum orientales et Graecae ec- c. 6. . 16. 
clesiae, et Africanae etiam, multis inter 

Fisher the Jesuit. 153 

other churches to agree with this ; but this necessity was laid Sect. 25. 
upon them by the " then integrity of the Christian faith there 
professed, not by the universality of the Eoman jurisdiction now 
challenged."" And let Rome reduce itself to the observation 
of tradition apostolic, to which it then held, and I will say as 
Irenseus did, " That it will be then necessary for every church 
and for the faithful every where to agree with it." Lastly, 
let me observe too, that Irenaeus made no doubt but that 
Rome might fall away from apostolical tradition, as well as 
other particular churches of great name have done. For he 
does not say in qua servanda semper erit, sed in qua servata 
est ; not, in which church the doctrine delivered from the 
apostles shall ever be entirely kept, that had been home 
indeed ; but in which, by God's grace and mercy, it was to 
that time of Irengeus so kept and preserved. So we have 
here, in Irenseus his judgment, the church of Rome then entire, 
but not infallible ; and endowed with a more powerful prin- 
cipality than other churches, but not with an universal domi- 
nion over all other churches, which is the thing in question. 

XIV. But to this place of Irenseus A. 0. joins a reason A. C. p. 58. 
of his own ; for lie tells us the bishop of Rome is St. Peter's 
successor, and therefore to him we must have recourse. The 
Fathers I deny lot ascribe very much to St. Peter, but it is 
to St. Peter in Ms own person ; and among them Epiphanius 
is as free and as frequent in extolling St. Peter as any of 
them, and yet did he never intend to give an absolute prin- / 
cipality to Rome in St. Peter's right. There is a noted place | 
in that Father, where his words are these : ' ; z For the Lord 
himself made St. Peter the first of the apostles a firm rock, 
upon which the church of God is built, and the gates of hell 
shall not prevail against it, &c. For in him the faith is made 
firm every way who received the key of heaven, &c. : for in 
him all the questions and subtilties of the faith are found." 
This is a great place at first sight too, and deserves a mar- 
ginal note to call young readers' eyes to view it. And it hath 

z Ipse autem Dominus constituit eum accepit clavem ccelorum, &c. In hoc 

primum apostolornm, petram firmam enim omnes quaestiones ac subtilitates 

super quam ecclesia Dei aedificata est, fidei inveniuntur. Epiphan. in Anco- 

et portae inferorum non valebunt adver- rato, edit. Paris. Lat. 1564. fol. 497. 

sus illam, &c. Juxta omnem enim A. edit, vero Graeco-Latin. torn. ii. 

modum in ipso firmata est fides, qui p. 14. 

154 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. this note in the old Latin edition at Paris, 1564 : Petri 
principatus, et prcestantia, Peter's principality and excellency. 
This place, as much show as it makes for the Roman princi- 
pality, I shall easily clear, and yet do no wrong, either to St. 
Peter or the Roman church. For most manifest it is, that 
the authority of St. Peter is a urged here to prove the God- 
head of the Holy Ghost : and then follow the elogies given to 
St. Peter, the better to set off and make good that authority; 
as that he was b princeps apostolorum, the prince of the apo- 
stles, " and pronounced blessed by Christ ; because, as God 
the Father revealed to him the Godhead of the Son, so did 
he again the Godhead of the Holy Ghost. 11 After this Epi- 
phanius calls him " c solidam petram, a solid rock, upon which 
the church of God was founded, against which the gates of 
hell should not prevail :" and adds, " "|hat the faith was 
rooted and made firm in him d every way, ii him who received 
the key of heaven. 11 And after this he gives the reason of 
all ; " e because in him, 11 mark, I pray, it is still in him as he 
was blessed by that revelation from God\the Father, f St. 
Matthew xvi., " were found all the AeTrroA^yrjjutara, the very 
niceties and exactness of the Christian faitV. 11 For he pro- 
fessed the Godhead of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and 
so omni modo, every point of faith was roofed in him; and 
this is the full meaning of that learned FatheiJ in this passage. 
Now therefore, building the church upon St; Peter, in Epi- 
phanius his sense, is not as if he and his successors were to 
be monarchs over it for ever; but it is th^ edifying and 
establishing the church in the true faith of jChrist by the 
confession which St. Peter made. And so he expresses 
himself elsewhere most plainly e ; " St. Peteir, 11 saith he, 
" who was made to us indeed a solid rock firming the faith 
of our Lord. On which (rock) the church is \)ui\\juxta omnem 
modum, every way. First, that he confessed Chiist to be the 

a Ti on eireipcurei/. For there begins Domini. In qua (petia) aedificata est 

the argument of Epiphanius. ecclesia juxta omnem njodurn. Primo, 

b 'O Kopvcpadraros. quod confessus est Christum esse Filium 

c Tyv a-reptav irerpav. Dei vivi, et statim audirit, Super hanc 

d Kara irdvra yap, &c. petram solid* fidei cedijicabo ecclesiam 

e 'Ef Tovrip yap t &c. meam Etiam de Spiritu Sancto idem, 

f Matt. xvi. 17. & c . Epiphan. Haeres. lib, ii. 59. contra 

S A Os yfyovev, &c. Qui factus est Catharos, torn. i. p. 500, edit. Graeco- 

nobis revera solida petra firmans fidem Lat. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 155 

Son of the living God, and by and by he heard, Upon this Sect. 25. 
rock of solid faith / will build my church : and the same con- 
fession he made of the. Holy Ghost. 11 Thus was St. Peter 
a solid rock upon which the church was founded omni modo, 
every way ; that is, the faith of the church was h confirmed 
by him in every point. But that St. Peter was any rock or 
foundation of the church, so as that he and his successors 
must be relied on in all matters of faith, and govern the 
church like princes or monarchs, that Epiphanius never 
thought of. And that he never did think so, I prove it thus : 
for, beside this apparent meaning of his context, (as is here 
expressed,) how could he possibly think of a supremacy due 
to St. Peter's successor, that in most express terms, and that 
i twice repeated, makes St. James the brother of our Lord, 
and not St. Peter, succeed our Lord in the principality of the 
church ? And Epiphanius was too full both of learning and 
industry to speak contrary to himself in a point of this 

XV. Next, since A. C. speeds no better with Irenseus, heA.C. p. 58. 
will have it out of scripture. And he still tells us the bishop 
of Rome is St. Peter's successor. Well ; suppose that. What 
then ? What ' why then he succeeded in all St. Peter's 
k prerogatives which are ordinary and belonged to him as a 
bishop, though not in the extraordinary which belonged to 
him as an apostle ; for that is it which you all say 1, but no 
man proves. If this be so, yet then I must tell A. C., St. 
Peter in his ordinary power was never made pastor of the 
whole church: nay, in his extraordinary he had no m more 
powerful principality than the other apostles had. A "primacy 
of order was never denied him by the protestants; and an 
universal supremacy of power was never granted him by the 
primitive Christians. Yea, but Christ promised the keys to 

h riepl rov xyiov TlvsvfJiaTos 6 avrbs . Resporideo pontificatum. 

aav/xxAi^iETat ruins. Ibid. 1 Sect. 25. num. X. 

i Ille primus (speaking of St. James ni Bellarm. ibid. 

the Lord's brother) episcopalem cathe- n The Fathers gave three preroga- 
dram cepit, quum ei ante cueteros omnes tives to St. Peter of authority, of 
suum in terris thronum Dominus tradi- primacy, and of principality, but not 
disset. Kpiphan. Haeres. lib. iii. 78. of supremacy of power. Raynold con- 
torn, ii. p. 1039. Et fere similiter, torn, tra Hart. cap. 5. divis. 3. And he 
i. lib. t. Haeres. 29. proves it at large. 

k Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 9. 

156 A rchUshop Laud against 

Sect. 25. St. Peter. True ; but so did he to Pall the rest of the apo- 
stles, and to their successors as much as to his. So it is till 
et illis, not tiM non illis, I give the keys to thee and them, 
not to thee to exclude them ; unless any man will think 
heaven-gates so easy that they might open and shut them 
without the keys. And <i St. Augustine is plain ; " If this 
were said only to St. Peter, then the church hath no power 
to do it ;" which God forbid ! The keys therefore were given 
to St. Peter and the rest in a figure of the church, to whose 
power and for whose use they were given. But there is not 
one key in all that bunch that can let in St. Peter's successor 
to a more powerful principality universal than the successors 
of the other apostles had. 

A. C. p. 58. XVI. Yea, but Christ prayed that St. Peter's faith might 
not fail 1 ". That is true ; and in that sense that Christ prayed 
St. Peter's faith failed not ; that is, in application to his per- 
son " for his perseverance in the faith," as s St. Prosper ap- 
plies it ; " which perseverance yet he must otve and acknow- 
ledge to the grace of Christ's prayer for Kim, not to the 
power and ability of his own freewill," as tpt. Jerome tells 
us. u Bellarmine likes not this, " because," s^ith he, " Christ 
here obtained some special privilege for St. Peter ; whereas 
perseverance in grace is a gift common to all me elect :" and 
he is so far right. And the special grace whfyh this prayer 
of Christ obtained for St. Peter was, that he Should not fall 
into a final apostasy ; no, not when Satan had\sifted him to 
the bran, that he fell most horribly even int^ a threefold 
denial of his Master, and that with a curse. A|d to recover 
this and persevere was aliquid speciale, I trow, jf any thing 
ever were. But this will not down with Bell^rmine ; no, 

the * aliquid speciale, the special thing here obtained, was, 


o Matt. xvi. 1 8. potestate si voluisset, ut non deficeret 

P Matt, xviii. 18, John xx. 22. fides ejus, &c. S. Hi^-on. adversus 

q Si hoc Petro tantum dictum est, Pelagianos, lib. ii. 

non facit hoc ecclesia, &c. S. August. u Aliquid speciale. Bellarm. cle Rom. 

Tract. 50. in S. Job. Pont. lib. iv. cap. 3. . ^ecundo, quia 

r Luke xxii. 32. sine. 
s Deum dare ut in fide perseveretur. * Ut nee ipse ut pontifex doceret 

S. Prosper, de Vocat. Gent. lib. i. unquam aliquid contra fidem, sive ut 

rap- 24. in sede ejus inveniretur qui doceret. 

t Rogavi ut non deficeret, &c. Et Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 3. . 

certe juxta vos in apostoli erat positum Alterum privilegium est. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 157 

saith he, " that neither St. Peter himself, nor any other that Sect. 25. 
should sit in his seat, should teach any thing contrary to the 
true faith." That St. Peter after his recovery should preach 
nothing either as apostle or bishop contrary to the faith, will 
easily be granted him ; but that none of his successors should 
do it, but be all infallible, that certainly never came within 
the compass of Rogavi pro te, Petre, I have prayed for thee, 
Peter. And Bellarmine's proof of this is his just confuta- 
tion ; for he proves this exposition of that text only by the 
testimony of seven popes in their own cause, and then takes 
a leap to Theophylact, who says nothing to the purpose. So 
that upon the matter Bellarmine confesses there is not one 
Father of the church disinteressed in the cause that under- 
stands this text as Bellarmine doth, till you come down to 
Theophylact. So the pope^s infallibility appeared to nobody 
but the popes themselves for above a thousand years after 
Christ ; for so long it was before y Theophylact lived : and the 
spite of it is, Tlieophylact could not see it neither, for the 
most that Bellarmine makes him say is but this : " z Because 
I account thee S chief of my disciples, confirm the rest ; for 
this becomes thee, which art to be a rock and foundation of 
the church after me." For this is personal too, and of St. 
Peter, and that as he was an apostle : for otherwise than as 
an apostle, he was not a rock or foundation of the church ; 
no, not in a secondary sense. The special privilege therefore 
which Christ prayed for was personal to St. Peter, and is 
that which before I mentioned. And Bellarmine himself says, 
44 That Christ a obtained by this prayer two privileges, espe- 
cial ones for St. Peter : the one, that he should never quite 
fall from the true faith, how strongly soever he were tempted ; 
the other, that there should never be found any sitting in 
his seat that should teach against it." Now for the first of 
these, b Bellarmine doubts it did not flow over to his suc- 
cessors. Why then, it is true which I here say, that this was 

y Theophylactus floruit circa anno a Impetravit, et ibid. . Est igitur 

Dom. 1072. tertia. 

z Quia te habeo principem discipu- b Ex quibus privilegiis primum for- 

lorum, confirma caeteros. Hoc enim tasse non manavit ad posteros, at se- 

decet te, qui post me ecclesiae petra es cundum sine dubio manavit ad posteros 

et fundamentum. Bellarm. de Rom. sive successores. Bellarm. ibid. . Al- 

Pont. lib. iv. c. 3. . Praeter hcs. Ex teium privilegium. 
Theophyl. in 21. S. Luc. 

158 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25. personal to St. Peter. But the second, he says, " out of all 
doubt, passed over to his successors. 11 Nay, that is not out 
of all doubt neither. First, because many learned men have 
challenged many popes for teaching heresy, and that is 
against the true faith : and that which so many learned men 
have affirmed is not out of all doubt ; or if it be, why does 
Bellarmine take so much pains to confute and disprove them 
as c he doth ? Secondly, because Christ obtained of his Father 
every thing that he prayed for, if he prayed for it absolutely, 
and not under a condition : d Father, I know thou hearest me 
always. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for St. Peter, 
therefore whatsoever he asked for him was granted. There- 
fore, if Christ intended his successors as well as himself, his 
prayer was granted for his successors as well as for himself. 
But then, if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely, as he doth, 
" e That the whole gift obtained by this prayer for St. Peter 
did belong to his successors, 11 and then by atid by after break 
this gift into two parts, and call the first part into doubt 
whether it belongs to his successors or no, he cannot say the 
second part is out of all doubt ; for if there be reason of 
doubting the one, there is as much reason of doubting the 
other, since they stand both on the same fdot, the validity 
of Chrises prayer for St. Peter. 

XVII. Yea, but Christ charged St. Peter >to govern and 
feed his whole flock, St. John xxi. Nay, soft, it is but his 
f sheep and his lambs, and that every apostle and every apo- 
stle's successor hath s charge to do, St. Matt. xxViii.; but over 
the whole flock I find no one apostle or successor set. And 
A. C. p. 58. it is a poor shift to say, as A. C. doth, " That the bishop of 
Rome is set over the whole flock, because botl over lambs 
and sheep ;" for in every flock that is not of baJrren wethers 
there are lambs and sheep, that is, h weaker and stronger 

c Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. h And this seems to fp.e to allude to 

cap. 8. that of St. Paul, i Cor. Hi. 2. and Heb. 

d John xi. 42. v. 1 2, some are fed ivith milk, and some 

e Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum, with stronger meat ; the lambs with 

etiam ad successores pertinet. Bellarm. milk, and the sheep with stronger meat. 

de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. cap. 3. . Quarto, But here A. C. follows pope Hildebrand 

donum hoc. ^ close, who in the case of the emperor 

f John xxi. 15, 1 6. then asked this qiiestion : Quando Chri- 

& Matt, xxviii. 19; and x. 16. the stus ecclesiam suam Petro commisit, et 

same power and charge is given to dixit, Pasce oves meas, excepitne reges ? 

all. Platin. in Vita Greg. VII. And certainly 

Fisher the Jesuit. 159 

Christians ; not people and pastors, subjects and governors, Sect. 25. 
as A. C. expounds it, to bring the necks of princes under 
Roman pride : and if kings be meant, yet then the command 
is pasce, feed them; but deponere or occidere, to depose or j 
kill them, is not pascere in any sense ; lanii id est, non pasto- 
m, that is the butcher's, not the shepherd's part : if a sheep 
go astray never so far, it is not the shepherd's part to kill 
him ; at least if he do, non pascit dum occidit, he doth not 
certainly feed while he kills. 

XVIII. And for the close, "That the bishop of Rome A. C. p. 58. 
shall never refuse to feed and govern the whole flock in such 
sort, as that neither particular man nor church shall have 
just cause, under pretence of reformation in manners or faith, 
to make a separation from the whole church ;" by A. C.'s 
favour, this is mere begging of the question. He says the 
pope shall ever govern the whole church so as that there 
shall be no just cause given of a separation. And that is the 
very thing which the protestants charge upon him, namely, 
that he hath governed, if not the whole, yet so much of the 
church as he hath been able to bring under his power, so as 
that he hath given too just cause of the present continued 
separation. And as the corruptions in the doctrine of faith 
in the church of Rome were the cause of the first separation, 
so are they at this present day the cause why this separation 
continues. And further, I for my part am clear of opinion, 
that the errors in the doctrine of faith which are charged 
upon the whole church, at least so much of the whole as in 
these parts of Europe hath been kept under the Roman juris- 
diction, have had their original and continuance from this, 
that so much of the universal church (which indeed they 
account all) hath forgotten her own liberty, and submitted to 
the Roman church and bishop, and so is in a manner forced 
to embrace all the corruptions which the particular church of 
Rome hath contracted upon itself; and being now not able 
to free herself from the Roman jurisdiction, is made to con- 
tinue also in all her corruptions. And for the protestants, 
they have made no separation from the general church, pro- 
perly so called, (for therein A. C. said well, the pope's A. c. p. 58, 

kings are not exempted from being fed of their kingdoms by any churchmen, 
by the church, but from being spoiled that they are. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 25, 26. administration can give no cause to separate from that;) but 
their separation is only from the church of Rome, and such 
other churches as by adhering to her have hazarded them- 
selves, and do now miscall themselves the whole catholic 
church: nay, even here the protestants have not left the 
church of Rome in her essence, but in her errors, not in the 
things which constitute a church, but only in such abuses and 
corruptions as work toward the dissolution of a church. 

jf . I also asked who ought to judge in this case : the $3, 

said, a general council. 

Sect. 26. 2$. I. And surely what greater or surer judgment you 
can have, where sense of scripture is doubted, than a general 
A. C. p. 59. council, I do not see, nor do you doubt. And A. C. grants 
it to be "a most competent judge of all controversies of faith, 
so that all pastors be gathered together, and in the name of 
Christ, and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of 
the Holy Ghost, and make great and diligent search and 
examination of the scriptures and other grounds of faith, and 
then decree what is to be held for divine truth ; for then," 
saith he, "it is firm and infallible, or else there is nothing 
firm upon earth." As fair as this passage seems, and as 
freely as I have granted that a general council is the best 
judge on earth, where the sense of scripture is doubted, yet 
even in this passage there are some things considerable. As, 
first, when shall the church hope for such a general council, 
in which all pastors shall be gathered together? There was 
never any such general council yet, nor do I believe such can 
be had ; so that is supposed in vain ; and you might have 
learned this of iBellarmine, if you will not belie\e me. Next, 
saith he, t; If all these pastors pray unanimously for the 
promised assistance of the Holy Ghost." Why, but if all 
pastors cannot meet together, all cannot pray together, nor 
all search the scriptures together, nor all upon that search 
decree together : so that is supposed in vain too, Yea but, 
thirdly, " If all that meet do pray unanimously" What then \ 
all that meet are not simply all ; nor doth the Holy Ghost 
come and give his assistance upon every prayer that is made 

i Si omnes, nullum fuit bactenus tur deinceps futurum. Bellarm. i. de 
concilium generate, neque etiam vide- Concil. cap. 17. . i. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


unanimously, though by very many prelates or other faithful Sect. 26. 
people met together, unless all other requisites, as well as 
unanimity, to make their prayer to be heard and granted, 
be observed by them : so that an unanimous prayer is not 
adequately supposed, and therefore concludes not. But, 
lastly, how far a general council, if all A. C.'s conditions be 
observed, is firm and infallible, that shall be more fully dis- 
cussed Jat after. In the mean time, these two words firm 
and infallible are ill put together as synonymas: for there 
are some things most infallible in themselves, which yet could 
never get to be made firm among men ; and there are many 
things made firm by law, both in churches and kingdoms, 
which yet are not infallible in themselves: so to draw all 
together, to settle controversies in the church, here is a visible 
judge and infallible, but not living, and that is the k scripture 

j Sect. 33. consid. J. 

k And this was thought a sufficient 
judge too, when Christians were as 
humble as learned. I am sure Optatus 
thought so. Quaerendi sunt judices. Si 
Christiani de utraque parte dari non 
possunt, quia studiis veritas impeditur. 
De foris quaerendus est judex. Si paga- 
nus, non potest nosse Christiana secreta. 
Si Judaeus, inimicus est Christiani bap- 
tismatis. Ergo in terris de hac re nul- 
lum poterit reperiri judicium. De crelo 
quaerendus est judex. Sed ut quid pul- 
samus ad co3lurn quum habemus hie 
evangelio ? Testamentum (inquam, quia 
hoc loco recte possunt terrena coelesti- 
bus comparari) tale est, quod quivis 
hominum habens numerosos filios, his 
quamdiu pater praesens est, ipse imperat 
singulis ; non est adhuc riecessarium 
testamentum ; sic et Christus prsesens 
in terris fuit, (quamvis nee modo desit) 
pro tempore quicquid necessarium erat- 
apostolis imperavit. Sed quomodo ter- 
renus pater dum se in confinio senserit 
mortis, timens ne post mortem suam, 
rupta pace litigent fratres, adhibitis tes- 
tibus voluntatem suam de pectore mori- 
turo, transfert in tabulas diu duraturas. 
Et si fuerit inter fratres contentio nata, 
non itur ad tumulum, sed quaeritur 
testamentum ; et qui tumulo quiescit, 
tacitus de tabulis loquitur. Vivus, cujus 
est testamentum, in crelo est. Ergo vo- 
luntas ejus, velut in testarnento, sic in 
evangelio inquiratur. Optat. adv. Farm, 
lib. v. 

This pregnant place of Optatus, " That 

the scripture is the judge of divine truth 
whenever it is questioned," though Bald- 
win dare not deny, yet he would fain 
slide both by it, and by a parallel place 
as full in S. August, in Psal. xxi. expo- 
sitioue 2, with this shift, that St. Au- 
gustine in another place had rather use 
the testimony of tradition, that is, the 
testimony nuncupativi potius quam scrip- 
ti testamenti, of the nuncupative rather 
than the tvritten will of Christ. Bald- 
win, in Optat. lib. v. But this is a 
mere shift. First, because it is petitio 
principii, the mere begging of the ques- 
tion ; for we deny any testament of 
Christ but that which is written : and 
A. C. cannot shew it in any one Father 
of the church that Christ ever left be- 
hind him a nuncupative obligatory will. 
Secondly, because nothing is more plain 
in these two Fathers, Optatus and St. 
Augustine, than that both of them ap- 
peal to the written will, and make that 
the judge without any exception, when 
a matter of faith comes in question. 
In Optatus the words are, Habemus in 
evangelio, we have it in the gospel; 
and, In evangelio inquiratur, let it be 
inquired in the gospel ; and Christ put 
it in tabulas diu duraturas, into written 
and lasting instruments. In St. Au- 
gustine the words are, " Our Father 
did not die intestate," &c. ; and, Tabulae 
aperiantur, let his written instruments 
be opened ; and, Legantur verba mor- 
tui, let the words of him that died be 
read : and again, Aperi, legamus, open 
the will, and let us read ; and, Lega- 


Ifiv Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. pronouncing by the church ; and there is a visible and a living 
judge, but not infallible, and that is a general council, law- 
fully called and so proceeding. But I know no formal con- 
firmation of it needful, (though A. C. Require it,) but only 
that after it is ended the whole church admit it, be it never 
so tacitly. 

A. C. p. 59, II. In the next place. A. C. interposes new matter quite 
out of the conference. And first, in case of distraction and 
disunion in the church, he would know what is to be done 
to reunite, when a general council (which is acknowledged 
to be a fit judge) cannot be had by reason of manifold impe- 
diments, or if being called, will not be of one mind. " Hath 
Christ our Lord," saith he, " in this case provided no rule, 
no judge, infallibly to determine controversies, and to procure 
unity and certainty of belief? Indeed the protestants admit 
no infallible means, rule, or judge, but only scripture, which 
every man may interpret as he pleaseth, and so all shall be 
uncertain." Truly, I must confess, there are many impedi- 
ments to hinder the calling of a general council. You know 
in the ancient church there was m hinderance enough, and 
what hurt it wrought ; and afterward, though it were long 
first, there was provision made for "frequent calling of coun- 

mus, quid litigamus ? why do we strive ? else the general council is invalid, is one 

let us read the will : and again, Aperi of the Roman novelties ; for this cannot 

testamentum, lege, open the will, read, be shewed in any antiquity void of just 

All which passages are most express exception. The truth is, the pope, as 

and full for his written will, and not other patriarchs and great bishops used 

for any nuncupative will, as Baldwin to do, did give his assent to such coun- 

would put upon us. And Hart, who cils as he approved ; but that is no cor- 

takes the same way with Baldwin, is roboration of the council, as if it were 

not able to make it out, as appears by invalid without it, but a declaration of 

Dr. Reynolds, in his Conference with his consenting with the rest. Sect. 33. 

Hart, c. 8. divis. i. p. 396, &c. consid. 4. num. VI. 

1 Sect. 28. num. I. And so plainly m Christianitas in diversas haereses 

St. Augustine, speaking of St. Cyprian's scissa est, quia non erat licentia episco- 

error about rebaptization, &c., says, Illis pis in unum convenire, persecutione 

temporibus antequam plenarii concilii saeviente usque ad tempora Constantini, 

sententia quid in hac re sequendum &c. Isidor. Concil. ed. Venet. 

esset, totius ecclesiae consensio confir- 1585. 

masset, Visum est ei cum, &c. De Bapt. n Frequens generalium conciliorum 
cont. Donat. lib. i. c. 18. So here is celebratio est praecipua cultura agri Do- 
first " sententia concilii ;" and then the minici, &c. Et illorum neglectus erro- 
confirmation of it is " totius ecclesiae res, haereses, et schismata disseminat. 
consensio," the consent of the whole Haec praeteritorum temporum recordatio 
church yielding unto it. And so Ger- et praesentium consideratio ante oculos 
son, Concurrente universali totius eccle- nostros ponunt. Itaque sancimus, ut 
siae consensu, &c. In declaratione veri- a modo concilia generalia celebrentur ; 
tatem quae credendae sunt, &c. . 4. For ita quod primum a fine hujus concilii 
this, That the pope must confirm it, or in quinquennium immediate sequens, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 163 

cils, and yet no age since saw them called according to that Sect. 26. 
provision in every circumstance : therefore impediments there 
were enough, or else some declined them wilfully, though 
there were no impediments. Nor will I deny but that when 
they were called, there were as many practices to disturb or 
pervert the councils ; and these practices were able to keep 
many councils from being all of one mind : but if being called 
they will not be of one mind, I cannot help that ; though 
that very not agreeing is a shrewd sign that the other spirit 
hath a party there against the Holy Ghost. 

III. Now A.C. would know what is to be done for reuniting 
of a church divided in doctrine of the faith, when this remedy 
by a general council cannot be had : " Sure Christ our Lord," 
saith he, " hath provided some rule, some judge, in such and 
such like cases, to procure unity and certainty of belief." I 
believe so too ; for he hath left an infallible rule, the scrip- 
ture ; and that, by the manifest places in it (which need no 
dispute, no external judge), is Pable to settle unity and cer- 
tainty of belief in necessaries to salvation : and in non neces- 
sariis, in and about things not necessary, there ought not to 
be a contention to a q separation. 

IV. And therefore A. C. does not well to make that a 
crime, that the protestants admit no infallible rule but the 
scripture only, or, as he (I doubt, not without some scorn) 
terms it, beside only scripture; for what need is there of 
another, since this is most infallible, and the same which the 
r ancient church of Christ admitted I And if it were sufficient 

senindum vero a fine illius in septen- P Non per difficiles nos Deus ad bea- 

nium, et deinceps de decennio in decen- tarn vitam quaestiones vocat, &c. In 

nium perpetuo celebrentur, &c. Concil. absolute nobis et facili est seternitas ; 

Constant. Sess. 39. Et apud Gerson. Jesum suscitatum a mortals per Deum 

Tom. p. 230. et Pet. de Aliaco Card, credere, et ipsum esse Dominum confi- 

Cameracensis libellum obtulit in Concil. teri, &c. S. Hilar. de Trin. lib. x. ad 

Constant, de reformatione ecclesife con- finem. 

tra opinionem eorum qui putarunt con- q Cyprianus et collegae ipsius creden- 

cilia generalia minus necessaria esse, tes haereticos et schismaticos baptismum 

quia omnia bene a patribus nostris or- non habere, sine baptismo receptis, &c. 

dinata sunt, &c. In fascic. Rerum ex- iis tamen communicare quam separari 

petendarum, fol. 28. Et schismatibns ab imitate maluerunt. S. August, de 

debet ecclesia cito per concilia generalia Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. ii. c. 6 Et hi 

provideri, ut in primitiva ecclesia docu- non contaminabant Cyprianum. Ibid, 

erunt apostoli, ut Act. vi. et Act. xv. fine. 

Ibid. fol. 204. A. r Recensuit cuncta sanctis scripturis 

o In concil. Ariminensi multis pan- consona. Euseb. Hist. lib. v. c. 20. de 

corum fraude deceptis, &c. S. August. Frenaeo. Regula principalis de qua 

contra Maximinum, lib. iii. c. 14. Paracletus agnitus. Tert. de Monog. 

M 2 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. for the ancient church, to guide them and direct their coun- 
cils why should it be now held insufficient for us, at least 
till a free general council may be had? And it hath both 
the conditions which s Bellarmine requires to a rule, namely, 
that it be certain, and that it be known ; "for if it be not 
certain, it is no rule, and if it be not known, it is no rule to us." 
Now the t Romanists dare not deny but this rule is certain; 
and that it is sufficiently known in the manifest places of it, 
and such as are necessary to salvation, none of the ancients 
did ever deny ; so there is an infallible rule. 

V. Nor need there be such fear of a private spirit in 
these manifest things, which being but read or heard, teach 
themselves. Indeed, you Romanists had need of some other 
judge, and he a propitious one, to crush the pope's more 
powerful principality out of Pasce oves, Feed my sheep. And 
yet this must be the meaning, (if you will have it,) whether 
u Gideon's fleece be wet or dry, that is, whether there be dew 
enough in the text to water that sense or no. But, I pray, 
when God hath left his church this infallible rule, what war- 
rant have you to seek another? you have shewed us none 

c. 2. And this is true, though the au- 
thor spake it when he was lapsed. 
Ipsas scripturas apprime teneris. S. Hie- 
ron. ad Marcellum advers. Montanum, 
torn. ii. Hoc quia de scripturis non 
habet authoritatem, eadem facilitate 
contemnitur, qua probatur. S. Hieron. 
in S. Matth. c. xxiii. 

Manifestus est fidei lapsus, et liqui- 
dum superbiae vitium, vel respuere ali- 
quid eorum quae scriptura habet, vel 
inducere quicquam quod scriptum non 
est. S. Basil. Serm. de Fide, torn. ii. 
p. 154. edit. Basileae, 1565. 

Contra insurgentes haereses ssepe pug- 
navi agraphis, verum non alienis a pi a 
secundum scripturam sententia. Ibid. 

P- 53- 

And before Basil, Tertullian : Adoro 
scripturae plenitudinem, &c. si non est 
scriptum, timeat Hermogenes. Vae illud 
adjicientibus vel detrahentibus destina- 
tum. Tertull. adv. Hermog. c. 22. 

And Pauliuus plainly calls it " regu- 
lum directionis," epist, 23. 

De hac regula tria observanda sunt. 

1 . Regula est, sed a tern pore quo scripta. 

2. Regula est, sed per ecclesiam appli- 
canda, non per privatum spiritum. 

3. Regula est, et mensurat omnia quae 

continet: continet autem omnia neces- 
saria ad salutem, vel mediate vel imme- 
diate. Et hoc tertium habet Biel. iu 
3. D. 25. q. unica. Conclus. 4. M. And 
this is all we say. Hooker, Eccles. Pol. 
b. v. . 22. 

s Regula catholic* fidei debet esse 
certa et nota. Si certa non sit, non 
erit regula. Si nota non sit, non erit 
regula nobis. Bellarm. de Verbo Dei, 
lib. i. c. 2. . 5. Sed nihil est vel cer- 
tius vel notius sacra scriptura. Bellarm. 
ibid. . 6. Therefore the holy scripture 
is the rule of catholic faith, both in it- 
self and to us also ; for in things simply 
necessaiy to salvation it is abundantly 
known and manifest; as . 16. num. V. 

t Convenit inter nos et omnes omnino 
haereticos, verbum Dei esse regulam 
fidei, ex qua de dogmatibus judicandum 
sit. Bellarm. Praefat. torn. i. fine. And 
although there, perhaps, he includes 
traditions, yet that was never proved 
yet : neither indeed can he include 
traditions ; for he speaks of that word 
of God upon which all heretics consent : 
but concerning traditions, they all con- 
sent not that they are a rule of faith ; 
therefore he speaks not of them. 

u Judg. vi. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 165 

yet, whatever you think you have. And I hope A. C. cannot Sect. 26. 
think it follows, that Christ our Lord hath provided no rule 
to determine necessary controversies, because he hath not 
provided the rule which he would have. 

VI. Besides, let there be such a living judge as A. C. 
would have, and let the x pope be he, yet that is not sufficient, 
against the malice of the devil and impious men, to keep the 
church at all times from renting, even in the doctrine of 
faith, or to solder the rents which are made ; for Voportet esse 
hcereses, heresies there will be, and heresies properly there 
cannot be but in doctrine of the faith. And what will A. 0. 
in this case do? Will he send Christ our Lord to provide 
another rule than the decision of the bishop of Rome, because 
he can neither make unity nor certainty of belief? And (as 
it is most apparent) he cannot do it de facto, so neither hath 
he power from Christ over the whole church to do it ; nay, 
out of all doubt, it is not the least reason why de facto he 
hath so little success, because de jure he hath no power given. 
But since A. C. requires another judge besides the scripture, 
and in cases when either the time is so difficult that a general 
council cannot be called, or the council so set that they will 
not agree, let us see how he proves it. 

VII. It is thus: "Every earthly kingdom," saith he, A. C. p. 60. 
" when matters cannot be composed by a parliament, (which 
cannot be called upon all occasions" why doth he not add 
here, ' and which being called will not always be of one mind, 1 
as he did add it in case of the council ?) " hath, besides the 
law-books, some living magistrates and judges, and, above all, 
one visible king, the highest judge, who hath authority suffi- 
cient to end all controversies, and settle unity in all temporal 
affairs. And shall we think that Christ, the wisest King, 
hath provided in his kingdom the church, only the law-books 
of the holy scripture, and no living visible judges, and 
above all, one chief, so assisted by his Spirit as may suffice 
to end all controversies for unity and certainty of faith? 
which can never be, if every man may interpret holy scrip- 
ture, the law-books, as he list." This is a very plausible 
argument with the many ; but the foundation of it is but a 

x For so he affirms, p. 58. y i Cor. xi. 19. 

16(5 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. z similitude ; and if the similitude hold not in the main, the 
argument is nothing; and so I doubt it will prove here. I 
will observe particulars as they lie in order. 

VIII. And first, he will have the whole militant church 
(for of that we speak) a kingdom. But this is not certain ; 
for they are no mean ones which think our Saviour Christ left 
the church militant in the hands of the apostles and their 
successors in an aristocratical, or rather a mixed government ; 
and that the church is not a monarchical otherwise than the 
triumphant and militant make one body under Christ the 
head. And in this sense indeed, and in this only, the church 
is a most absolute kingdom ; and the very expressing of this 
sense is a full answer to all the places of scripture and other 
arguments brought by b Bellarmine to prove that the church 
is a monarchy. But the church being as large as the world, 
Christ thought it fitter to govern it aristocratically by divers, 
rather than by one viceroy. And I believe this is true : for 
all the time of the first three hundred years and somewhat 
better, it was governed aristocratically, if we will impartially 
consider how the bishops of those times carried the whole 
business of admitting any new consecrated bishops or others 
to, or rejecting them from their communion. For I have 
carefully examined this for the first six hundred years, even 
to and within the time of St. Gregory the Great, c who in 

z Quae subtilissime de hoc disputari Rhegii, sive Alexandras, siveTanis; ejus- 
possnnt, ita ut non similitudinihus quae dem meriti, ejusdem est et sacerdotii. 
plerumque fallunt sed rebus ipsis satis- S. Hieron. Epist. ad Evagrium doubt- 
fiat, &c. S. August, lib. de Quant, less he thought not of the Roman 
Animae, cap. 32. Whereupon the logi- bishop's monarchy. For what bishop 
cians tell us rightly, that this is a fal- is of the same merit or of the same de- 
lacy, unless it be taken reduplicative, gree in the priesthood with the pope, 
i. e. de similibus quae similia sunt. And as things are now carried at Rome ? 
hence Aristotle himself, 2 Top. Loc. 32, Affirmamus etiam, Patribus et Graecis 
says, ir&Kiv eTrl T<av d/jLoiow, fl 6/iotws et Latinis, ignotas esse voces de Petro 
%et. Rursum in similibus, si similiter aut papa, monarcha et monarchia. 
se habent. Nam quod in superioribus observaba- 

a When Gerson writ his tract De mus reperiri eas dictiones positas pro 

AuTeribilitate Papae, sure he thought episcopo, et episcopatu, nihil hoc ad 

the church might continue in a very rem facit. Isa. Casaub., Exercitatione 

good being without a monarchical head : 15. ad Annales Eccles. Baron. . 12. 

therefore in his judgment the church p. 378. et . n. p. 360, diserte assent 

is not by any command or institution et probat ecclesiae regimen aristocrati- 

of Christ monarchical. Gerson. par. i. cum fuisse. 

P- ! 54- b Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 16. 

When St. Hierome wrote thus Ubi- . i, 2, 3. 

cuiique fuerit episcopus, sive Romae, S. Greg. lib. ix. epist. 58. et lib. 

sive Eugubii, sive Constantinopoli, sive xii. epist. 15. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 167 

the beginning of the seventh hundred year sent such letters Sect. 26. 
to Augustine then archbishop .of Canterbury, and to d Quiri- 
nus and other bishops in Ireland ; and I find that the literce 
communicator ice, which certified from one great patriarch to 
another, who were fit or unfit to be admitted to their com- 
munion, if they upon any occasion repaired to their sees, were 
sent mutually, and as freely and in the same manner from 
Rome to the other patriarchs as from them to it. Out of 
which, I think, this will follow most directly, That the church 
government then was aristocratical : for had the bishop of 
Rome been then accounted sole monarch of the church, and 
been put into the definition of the church, (as he is now by 
e Bellarmine,) all these communicatory letters should have 
been directed from him to the rest, as whose admittance 
ought to be a rule for all to communicate; but not from 
others to him, or at least not in that even, equal, and bro- 
therly way as now they appear to be written. For it is no 
way probable that the bishops of Rome, which even then 
sought their own greatness too much, would have submitted 
to the other patriarchs voluntarily, had not the very course 
of the church put it upon them. 

IX. Besides, this is a great and undoubted rule given by 
f Optatus, That wheresoever there is a church, there the 
" church is in the commonwealth, not the commonwealth in the 
church : and so also the church was in the Roman empire. 11 
Now from this ground I argue thus : If the church be within 
the empire or other kingdom, it is impossible the government 
of the church should be monarchical. For no emperor or 
king will endure another king within his dominion that shall 
be greater than himself, since the very enduring it makes him 
that endures it upon the matter no monarch. Nor will it 
disturb this argument, that two great kings in France and 
Spain permit this. For he that is not blind may see, if he 
will, of what little value the pope's power is in those kingdoms, 
further than to serve their own turns of him, which they do 
to their great advantage. Nay further, the ancient canons 
and Fathers of the church seem to me plain for this; for 

d S. Greg. lib. ix. epist. 61. f Non enim respublica est in ecclesia: 

e Bellarm. de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 2. . sed ecclesia in republica, i. e. inimperio 
Nostra autem. Romano. Optat. lib. iii. 


168 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. the s council of Antioch submits ecclesiastical causes to the 
bishops ; and what was done amiss by a bishop was corri- 
gible by a h synod of bishops, but this with the 1 metropolitan; 
and in case these did not agree, the k metropolitan might call 
in other bishops out of the neighbouring provinces ; and if 
things settled not this way, a general council ( J under the 
scripture, and directed by it) was the highest remedy. And 
m St. Cyprian, even to pope Cornelius himself, says plainly, 
" that to every bishop is ascribed a portion of the flock for him 
to govern ;" and so not all committed to one : in all this the 
government of the church seems plainly aristocratical. And 
if all other arguments fail, we have one left from Bellarmine, 
who opposes it as much as any, "twice for failing ; and yet 
where he goes to exclude secular princes from church-govern- 
ment, all his quotations and all his proofs run upon this 
head, to shew that the government of the church was ever in 
the bishops. What saysP A. C. now to the confession of this 
great adversary, and in this great point, extorted from him 
by force of truth ? Now if this be true, then the whole foun- 
dation of this argument is gone ; the church militant is no 
kingdom, and therefore not to be compared or judged by one : 
the resemblance will not hold. 

X. Next, suppose it a kingdom, yet the church militant 
remaining one is spread in many earthly kingdoms, and can- 
not well be ordered like any one particular q kingdom ; and 

S Concil. Antioch. c. 9. p. 507. gotia etiam raajora omnium Christiano- 

h Concil. Nic. i. c. 5. et Antioch. rum. Turn quia minus malum est, ut 

c. 1 2. populus partialis et parvus inficiatur ab 

i Concil. Nic. i. c. 4. et Antioch. uno episcopo, quam ut totus, vel fere 

Can. 9. totus populus Christianus inficiatur ab 

k Concil. Antioch. c. 14. uno capite, quod omnibus praesit, Oc- 

l Sed praeponitur scriptura. S.August, cam. Dial. Tract, i. lib. ii. p. 3. c. 30. 

de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. ii. c. 3. ad 8. And besides this of Occam, to that 

m Nam cum statutum sit omnibus common argument, that monarchical 

nobis, &c. et singulis pastoribus portio government is the best, and therefore 

gregis, &c. S. Cypr. lib. i. ep. 3. undoubtedly that which Christ insti- 

n Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 8. tuted for his church, it is sufficient to 

et de Concil. lib. ii. c. 16. answer, That a monarchy is the best 

Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. i. c. 7. form of government in one city or coun- 
P A. C. p. 64, 65. try, Arist. Moral, lib. viii. c. 10; but 

1 Licet sit expediens quod uni populo it follows not that it is the best in re- 
partiali fideli praesit unus episcopus; spect of the whole world, where the 
iion expedit tamen quod toti populo parts are so remote and the dispositions 
fideli praesit unus solus. Turn quia of men so various. And therefore Bel- 
omnia negotia unius populi partialis larmine himself confesses, Monarchiam 
potest sustinere unus solus : nullus aristocratiae et democratise admixtam 
autem unus potest sustinere omnia ne- utiliorem esse in hac vita, quam simplex 

Fisher the Jesuit. 169 

therefore, though in one particular kingdom there may be Sect. 26. 
many visible judges and one supreme, yet it follows not that 
in the universal militant church there must be one supreme ; 
for how will, he enter to execute his office, if the kings of 
those kingdoms will not give leave ? 

XL Now here, though A. C. expresses himself no further, 
yet I well know what he and his fellows would be at ; they 
would not be troubled to ask leave of any several kings in 
their several dominions. No ; they would have one emperor 
over all the kings, as well as one pope over all the bishops. 
And then you know r who told us of two great lights to go- 
vern the world, the sun and the moon, that is, the pope and 
the emperor. At the first it began with more modesty, the 
emperor and the pope ; and that was somewhat tolerable : 
for s St. Augustine tells us, ci That the militant church is 
often in scripture called the moon, both for the many changes 
it hath, and for its obscurity in many times of its peregrina- 
tion;" and he tells us too, that if we will understand this 
place of scripture in a spiritual sense, l our Saviour Christ is 
the sun, and the militant church as being full of changes in 
her estate, the moon. But now it must be a triumphant church 
here, militant no longer ; the pope must be the sun, and the 
emperor but the moon : and lest Innocent's own power should 
not be able to make good his decretal, "Gasper Schioppius 
doth not only avow the allusion or interpretation, but is 
pleased to express many circumstances in which he would fain 
make the world believe the resemblance holds. And lest any 
man should not know how much the pope is made greater 
than the emperor by this comparison, the x Gloss furnishes 
us with that too, and tells us, that by this it appears, " that 

monarchia est. De Rom. Pont. lib. i. num. Decret. de Majoritate et Ol>e- 

c. 3. . i. dientia, lib. i. Tit. 33. cap. solitae. 

r In the first gloss ascribed to Isidore s Ecclesia militans ssepe in scripturis 

in Gen. i. 16. it is Per solem intelligi- dicitur luna, propter mutabilitatem, &c. 

tur regnum; per lunam, sacerdotium. S. August. Epist. 119. c. 6. 
But Innocent the Third, almost six l Intelligimus spiritualiter ecclesiam, 

hundred years after Isidore's death, per- &c. Et hie quis est sol, nisi sol justi- 

verts both text and gloss, thus : Ad tiae ? &c. S. August, in Psal. ciii. 
firmamentum coeli, i. e. universalis ec- u Gasp. Schiop. L. dicto Ecclesias- 

clesife, fecit Deus duo magna luminaria, ticus, c. 145. 

hoc est, duas instituit potestates, pon- x Igitur cum terra sit septies major 
tificalem, et regalem, &c. Ut quanta luna, sol autem octies major terra, re- 
inter solem et lunam, tanta inter pon- stat ergo ut pontificalis dignitas qua- 
tifices et reges differentia cognoscatur. dragesies septies sit major regali dig- 
Epist. ad Imperat. Constantinopolita- nitate. Gloss in Decret. praedict. Where 

170 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. since the earth is seven times greater than the moon and 
the sun eight times greater than the earth, it must needs 
follow that the pope's power is forty-seven times greater than 
the emperor's :" I like him well, he will make odds enough. 
But what, doth Innocent the Third give no reason of this his 
decretal ? Yes. And it is, saith he, " y because the sun, 
which rules in the day, that is, in spiritual things, is greater 
than the moon, which rules but in the night, and in carnal 
things. 11 But is it possible that Innocentius the Third, being 
so wise and so able as z that " nothing which he did, or com- 
mended, or disproved in all his life, should after his death be 
thought fit to be changed," could think that such an allusion 
of spiritual things to the day which the sun governs, and 
worldly business to the night which the moon governs, should 
carry weight enough with it to depress imperial power lower 
than God hath made it ? Out of doubt he could not ; for he 
well knew that omnis anima, every soul was to be subject to 
the higher power*, Rom. xiii. ; and the b "higher power there 
mentioned is the temporal: and the c ancient Fathers come 
in with a full consent, that omnis anima, every soul, compre- 
hends there all without any exception ; all spiritual men even 
to the highest bishop, and in spiritual causes too, so the 
foundations of faith and good manners be not shaken ; and 
where they are shaken there ought to be prayer and patience, 

first the Gloss is out in his Latin. He et ipse textus subindicat, &c. Salmeron, 

might have said quadragies, for quadra- Disput. 4. in Rom. xiii. . Porro per 

gesies is no word. Next, he is out in potestatem. 

his arithmetic ; for eight times seven c nScrt ravra StarciTTerat, /cal iepevfft, 

makes not forty-seven, but fifty-six : &c. Omnibus ista imperantur, et sacer- 

and then he is much to blame for dotibus et monachis, &c. Et postea : 

drawing down the pope's power from Etiamsi apostolus sis, si evangelista, si 

fifty-six to forty-seven. And lastly, propheta, sive quisquis tandem fueris. 

this allusion hath no ground of truth S. Chrysost. Horn. 23. in Rom Sive 

at all : for the emperor being solo Deo est sacerdos, sive antistes, &c. Theo- 

minor (Tertul. ad Scap.) cannot be a doret. in Rom. xiii. Si omnis anima, 

moon to any other sun. et vestra. Quis vos excipit ab univer- 

Y Sed ilia potestas, quae praeest die- sitate ? &c. Ipsi sunt qui vobis dicere 

bus, i. e. in spiritualibus, major est; solent, servate vestrae sedis honorem, 

quae vero carnalibus, minor. Innocent. &c. Sed Christus aliter et jussit, et 

III. ubi supra. gessit, &c. S. Bern. Epist. 42. ad 

z Ut post ejus mortem, nihil eorum Henricum Senonensem archiepiscopum. 

quae in hac vita egerit, laudaverit, aut Et Theophylact. in Rom. xiii., where 

improbaverit, immutatum sit. Platina it is very observable that Theophylact 

in vita ejus. lived in the time of pope Gregory the 

a Rom. xiii. i. Seventh, and St. Bernard after it, and 

b Patres veteres, et praecipue August, yet this truth obtained then ; and this* 

Epist. 54 Apostolum interpretantur was about the year 1130. 
de potestate seculari tantum loqui, quod 

Fisher the Jesuit. 171 

there ought not to be opposition by force. Nay, he knew Sect. 26. 
well that d emperors and kings are custodes utriusque tabulae, 
they to whom the custody and preservation of both tables of 
the law for worship to God and duty to man are committed ; 
that a book of the law was by God's own command in Moses 
his time to be given the king e ; that the kings under that 
law, but still according to it, did proceed to necessary reform- 
ations in church businesses, and therein commanded the 
very priests themselves, as appears in the acts of f Hezekiah 
and sJosiah, who yet were never censured to this day for 
usurping the high priest's office. Nay, he knew full well that 
the greatest emperors for the church's honour, Theodosius 
the Elder, and Justinian, and Charles the Great, and divers 
others, did not only meddle now and then, but did enact laws 
to the great settlement and increase of religion in their seve- 
ral times. But then if this could not be the reason why 
Innocentius made this strange allusion, what was 2 Why truly 
I will tell you. The pope was now grown to a great and \ 
firm height ; h Gregory the Seventh had set the popedom \^ 
upon a broad bottom before this Innocent's time : so that 
now it is the less wonder if he make so bold with the emperor 
as to depress him as low as the moon, upon no better ground 
than a groundless resemblance ; but beside this prime reason, 
there are divers other which may easily be drawn out of the 
same resemblance. For since Innocentius his main aim was 
to publish the pope's greatness over kings and emperors, 

d An forte de religione fas non est primae et secundae tabulae, quod ad dis- 

ut dicat imperator, vel quos miserit im- ciplinam attinet. Confessio Saxonica, . 

perator ? Cur ergo ad imperatorem 23. et Gerardus, Locorum torn. vi. c. 6. 

vestri venere legati ? Cur enim fece- . 5. membro i, probat ex Deut. 

runt causae suae judicem, non secuturi xvii. 18. 

quod ille judicaret ? &c. S.August. e Deut. xvii. 1 8. f 2 Chron. xxix. 4. 

cont. Epist. Parmen. lib. i. c. 9. Et 4 Reg. xxiii. 2. 

quaestio fuit, an pertineret ad impera- h Hie maximus pontifex totius eccle- 

torem adversus eos aliquid statuere qui siasticae libertatis unicus assertor. O- 

prava in religione sectantur. Ibid Nor nuph. in Plat in Greg. VII. For taking 

can this be said to be usurpation in the occasion by the war which Henry the 

emperor. Nam S. August, alibi sic, Ad Fourth had with the Saxons and their 

imperatoris curam, de qua rationem Deo neighbours, and the complaint of the 

redditurus est, res ilia maxime pertine- Saxons made to the pope, (of which 

bat. S. August. Epist. 162. et Epist. Platina in the life of Gregory the Se- 

50 Quis mente sobrius regibus dicat, venth,) the pope, wise enough for his 

Nolite curare in regno vestro a quo own advantages, sought not only to free 

teneatur, vel oppugnetur ecclesia Do- himself from the emperor, but to make 

mini vestri ? &c. Antiquitas recte dixit, the emperor subject to him ; and for 

Magistratus est custos legis, scilicet this the history is plain enough. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. why doth he not tell us, that the pope is as the sun, and 
the emperor as the moon ? Because as the moon borrows all 
her light from the sun, so the emperor borrows all his true 
light from the pope ; or because as the moon still increases 
in light so long as she follows the sun, but so soon as ever 
she steps before the sun she wanes presently, and her light 
decreases ; so the emperor, so long as he is content to follow 
the pope, and do all that he would have him, his light and 
his power increase ; but if he do but offer to step before 
(though that be his proper place) then his light and honour 
and power and all decrease. And this pope Gregory the 
Seventh made too good upon the emperor Henry the Fourth ; 
and pope Adrian the Fourth, and Alexander the Third, 
and Lucius the Third, with some others, upon Frederick Bar- 
barossa. And some other emperors were alike served where 
they did not submit ; and I hope no man will blame the 
pope's holiness for this : for if the emperors kept the popes 
under for divers years together, whereas 'Bellarmine tells us 
it was against all right they should do so, the pope being 
never rightfully subject unto them, I hope the pope having 
now got power enough may keep the emperors under, and not 
suffer them any more to step before the sun, lest like moons 
as they are, they lose all their light : or because as the moon 
is but vicaria soils, the vicar or substitute of the sun, as k Philo 
tells us ; so the emperor, at least in all spiritual causes, is but 
the pope's substitute, and that for the night, that his holiness 
may sleep the quieter on the other side of the sphere : or 
lastly (if you will abuse the scripture, as you too often do, and 
as Innocentius did in the decretal very grossly) you may say, 
it is because the woman, which all grant represented the 
church, J is clothed with the sun, that is, with the glorious 
rays of the pope, and had the moon, that is, the m emperor, 

i Papa, utpote regis regum vicarius, lib. v. c. 7. . Quod si Christian!. Now 

nunquam erat de jure subditus impera- this is a most lewd untruth, as appears 

toribus terrenis, sed quia turn potestas in Tertulliari, who lived about the year 

ejus non erat nota: et quia viribus 200 under Severus. And the Chris- 

temporalibus destitutus erat, vellet, nol- tians then had strength enough against 

let, subjectus esse cogebatur. Bellarm. the emperor, had they had right enough 

in Apologia, c. 15. Respons. ad Men- with it. 

dacium 10. And Bellarmine is at the k L. de Monar. 1 Rev. xii. i. 

same argument for deposing of kings m Sic enim Alexander Tcrtius collum 

too : Quia deerant vires temporales Frederici Primi pede comprimebat. Et 

Christianis. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont, dixit, Scriptum est, Super aspidem et 

Fisher the Jesuit. 173 

under her feet ; for this is as good, as literal, as proper an Sect. 26. 
interpretation of these words as that of Innocentius is of the 
words Gen. i., God made two great lights ; the greater light to 
rule the day, and the less to rule the night". Thus he or you 
may give your wits leave to play if you will, for the pope's 
decretal is a mere fancy. But the true reason indeed why 
Innocentius made it was that above mentioned. He was 
now in that greatness, that he thought he might pass any 
thing upon the Christian world that pleased him ; and was 
therefore resolved to bring it into the body of the canon, that 
aftertimes might have a law to legitimate and make good 
their predecessors 1 usurpation over emperors and kings ; and 
rather than fail of this, he would not spare the abusing of 
scripture itself: where by the way, dares A. C. say this pope 
did not err in cathedra, when he was so dazzled between the 
sun and the moon, that he wanted light in the midst of it to 
expound scripture I Well, I would have the Jesuits leave 
their practising, and remember, first, that one emperor will 
not always be able to establish and preserve one only uniform 
practice and exercise of religion ; secondly, that supposing 
he both can and will so do, yet the Jesuits cannot be certain 
that that one uniform exercise of religion shall be the Roman 
catholic ; and thirdly, that as there is a body of earth, a 
world of confusion to eclipse their moon the emperor, so in 
the same way, and by like interposition, the moon, when it is 
grown too near in conjunction, may eclipse their sun the pope. 
And there is no great doubt but he will, considering what 
some great kings make of the pope's power at this day when 
it pleases them. 

XII. And since we are in this comparison between the 
sun and the moon, give me leave a little further to examine 
who A. C. and his fellow Jesuits with some others would 
have to be this one emperor. I am not willing to meddle 
with any the secret designs of foreign states, but if they will 
express their designs in print, or publish them by great and 
full authority, I hope then it shall be neither unlawful nor 
unfit for me, either to take notice or to make use of them. 
Why then you may be pleased to know, they would have 

basiliscum., &c. Jo. Nauclems, Chron. n Gen. i. 16. 
Generatione 40. circa an. 1170. 

174 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. another translation of the empire from Germany to Spain ; 
they think belike this emperor's line, though in the same 
house, is not catholic enough : and if you ask me how I know 
this secret, I will not take it up upon any common report, 
though I well know what that says ; but I will tell you how 
I know it. Somewhat above four hundred years after Inno- 
centius made his comment upon the two great lights, the sun 
and the moon, the pope and the emperor, a Spanish friar 
follows the same resemblance between the monarchies of 
Rome and Spain, in a tract of his intitled, " The Agreement 
of the two Catholic Monarchies," and printed in Spanish in 
Madrid, anno 1612. In the frontispiece or titlepage of this 
book there are set out two scutcheons, the one bearing the 
cross keys of Rome, the other the arms of Castile and Leon, 
both joined together with this motto ; In mnculo pads, in the 
bond of peace. On the one side of this there is a portraiture 
resembling Rome, with the sun shining over it, and darting 
his beams on St. Peter's keys, with this inscription : vLumi- 
nare majus, the greater light, that it may govern the city 
(that is, Rome) and the whole world ; and on the other side 
there is another image designing Spain, with the moon shin- 
ing over that, and spreading forth its rays upon the Spanish 
scutcheon, with this impress : q Luminare minus, the less light, 
that it may be subject to the city (of Rome he means) and 
so be lord to govern the whole world besides ; and over all 
this in the top of the titlepage, there is printed in capital 
letters, Fecit Deus duo luminaria magna, God made two great 
lights. There follows after in this author a discovery at 
large of this blazoning of these arms, but this is the sub- 
stance of it, and abundantly enough to shew what is aimed 
at, by whom and for whom. And this book was not stolen 
out without the will and consent of the state ; for it hath 
printed before it all manner of license that a book can well 
have : for it hath the approbation of Father Pedro de Buyza, 
of the company of the Jesuits ; of John de Arcediano, pro- 
vincial of the Dominicans; of Diego Granero, the licenser 

o John de Puente, La convenientia reyes del mundo. 

de las dos monarquias catolicas la de la P Luminare majns, ut praesit nrbi et 

iglesia Romana, y la del imperio Espa- orbi. 

niol,y defensa de la precedentia de los q Luminare minus, ut subdatur urbi, 

reyes catolicos de Espania a todos los et dominetur orbi. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 1 75 

appointed for the supreme council of the inquisition ; and Sect. 26. 
some of these Revised this book by r order from the lords of 
that council : and last of all the s king's privilege is to it, 
with high commendation of the work. But the Spaniards 
had need look to it for all this, lest the French deceive them : 
for now lately Friar Campanella hath set out an eclogue 
upon the birth of the dolphin, and that permissu superiorum, 
by license from his superiors ; in which he says expressly, 
" l That all princes are now more afraid of France than ever, 
for that there is provided for it regnum universale, the univer- 
sal kingdom or monarchy." 

XIII. But it is time to return ; for A. C. in this passage A. C. p. 60. 
hath been very careful to tell us of a parliament, and of living 
magistrates and judges besides the law-books. Thirdly, there- 
fore the church of England (God be thanked) thrives happily 
under a gracious prince, and well understands that a parlia- 
ment cannot be called at all times ; and that there are visible 
judges besides the law-books, and one supreme (long may he 
be, and be happy) to settle all temporal differences (which 
certainly he might much better perform if his kingdoms were 
well rid of A. C. and his fellows.) And she believes too, that 
our Saviour Christ hath left in his church, besides his law- 
book the scripture, visible magistrates and judges, that is, 
archbishops and bishops, under a gracious king, to govern 
both for truth and peace according to the scripture, and her 
own canons and constitutions, as also those of the catholic 
church which cross not the scripture and the just laws of the 
realm. u But she doth not believe there is any necessity to 
have one pope or bishop over the whole Christian world, 
more than to have one emperor over the whole world ; which 
were it possible, she cannot think fit : nor are any of these 

r For orden de los seniores del con- num universale. F. Tho. Campanellae 

seio supremo. Ecloga in Principis Galliarum Delphini 

s For mandado del rey nuestro se- nativitatem, cum Annot. Descrip. Pari- 

nior. siis, 1639. Cum permissu superiorum. 

t Qunm Gallia alat 20,000,000 homi- u Non esse necesse, ut sub Christo 

num, ex singulis centenis sumendo sit urms rector totius ecclesiae, sed suffi- 

unum colliget 200,000 strenuorum mili- cit quod sint plures regentes diversas 

tum stipendiatorum, commode, perpe- provincias, sicut sunt plures reges gu- 

tuoque. Propterea omnes terrse principes bernantes plura regna. Ocham. Dial, 

metuuut nunc magis a Gallia, quam lib. 2. Tract, i. p. i. c. 30. ad i. 
unquam ab aliis ; paratur enim illi reg- 

176 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 26. intermediate judges, or that one which you would have 

supreme, infallible. 

A. c. p. 60. XIV. But since a kingdom and a parliament please A. C. 
so well to pattern the church by, I will follow him in the 
way he goes, and be bold to put him in mind, that in some 
kingdoms there are divers businesses of greatest consequence, 
which cannot be finally and bindingly ordered but in and by 
parliament ; and particularly the statute-laws, which must 
bind all the subjects, cannot be made and ratified but there. 
Therefore according to A. C.'s own argument, there will be 
some businesses also found, (is not the settling of the divisions 
of Christendom one of them ?) which can never be well settled 
but in a v general council : and particularly the making of 
canons, which must bind all particular Christians and churches, 
cannot be concluded and established but there. And again, 
as the supreme magistrate in the state civil may not abrogate 
the laws made in parliament, though he may dispense with 
the sanction or penalty of the law quoad hie et nunc, as the 
lawyers speak ; so in the ecclesiastical body no bishop, no 
not the pope, (where his supremacy is admitted,) hath power 
to x disannul or violate the true and fundamental decrees of 
a general council, though he may perhaps dispense in some 
cases with some decrees. By all which it appears, though 
somewhat may be done by the bishops and governors of the 
church, to preserve the unity and certainty of faith, and to 
keep the church from renting, or for uniting itwhen_jtjs 
rent ; yet that in the ordinary way which tnVchurch hath 
hitherto kept, some things there are, and upon great emergent 
occasions may be, which can have no other help than a lawful, 
free, and well composed general council : and when that cannot 
be had, the church must pray that it may, and expect till it 
may ; or else reform itself per partes^ by national or provin- 

v Propter defectum conciliorum gene- mata, who says every thing that may 

raliura totius ecclesiae, quae sola audet be said for the pope's supremacy, yet 

intrepide corrigere omnes, ea mala quae dares not say, Papam posse revocare et 

universalem tangunt ecclesiam, manen- tollere omnia statuta generalium con- 

tia din incorrecta cresctmt, &c. Ger- ciliorum, sed aliqua tantum. Jo. de 

son. Declarat. Defectuum Virorum Turrecr. Summae de Ecclesia, lib. iii. 

Ecclesiasticorum, torn. i. p. 209. c. 55. Et postea : Papa non potest re- 

x Sunt enim indissolubilia decreta, vocare decreta primorum qiiatuor con- 

quibus reverentia debita est. Prosper, ciliorum, quia non sunt nisi declarativa 

cont. Collatorem, c. i. And Turrecre- articulomm fidei. Ibid. c. 57. ad 2. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 177 

cial synods, (as hath been said y before.) And in the mean Sect. 2 6, 2 7. 
time it little beseems A. C. or any Christian, to check at the 
wisdom of z Christ, if he have not taken the way they think 
fitting to settle church differences ; or if, for the church's 
sin, or trial, the way of composing them be left more un- 
certain than they would have it, that they which are approved 
may be known, 1 Cor. xi. 19. But the Jesuit had told me be- 


fore, that a general council had adjudged these things already. 
For so he says. 

J?, I told him, that a general council, to wit, of Trent, had 
already judged, not the Roman church, but the prc- 
testants, to hold errors. That (saith the 33.) was not a 
lawful council. 

23, I. It is true, that you replied for the council of Trent, gect. 27. 
And my answer was, not only, That the council was not legal 
in the necessary conditions to be observed in a general coun- 
cil, but also, That it was no general council : which, again, 
you are content to omit. Consider it well: first, Is that 
council legal, the abettors whereof maintain publicly that it 
is lawful for them to conclude any controversy, and make it be 
defide, and so in your judgment fundamental, though it have 
not, I do not say now the written word of God for warrant, 
either in express letter or necessary sense and deduction, (as 
all unerring councils have had, and as all must have that will 
not err,) but not so much as a probable testimony from it ; 
nay, quite extra, without the scripture? Nay, secondly, Is 
that council b legal, where the pope, the chief person to be re- 

y Sect. 24. num. I. a se creatam sine regimine unius per- 
z And shall we think that Christ, the sonae reliquisset. Extravagant. Com. 
wisest King, hath not provided &c. Tit. de Majoritate et Obedientia c. 
A. C. p. 60. Where I cannot but com- Unam sanctam. In addition. D. P. 
mend either A. C.'s modesty, that he Bertrandi edit. Paris. 1585. 
doth not, or his cunning, that he will a Etiamsi non confirmetur, ne proba- 
not, go so far as some have done be- bilitestimonioscripturarum. Stapl. Re- 
fore him; though in these words, lect. Cont. 4. q. I. Art. 3. 
" Shall we think" &c. he goes too far. b Here A. C. tells us, " That doubt- 
Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse less the Arians also did mislike, that 
(ut cum reverentia ejus loquar) nisi at Nice the pope had legates to carry 
unicum post se talem vicarium reli- his messages, and that one of them, in 
quisset, qui haec omnia potest. Fuit his place, sat as president." Why but, 
autem ejus vicarius Petrus. Et idem first, it is manifest that Hosius was 
dicendum est de successoribus Petri, president at the council of Nice, and 
cum eadem absurditas sequeretur, si not the bishop of Rome, either by him- 
post mortem Petri, humanam naturam self or his legates. And so much Atha- 



Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 27. formed, shall sit president in it, and be chief judge in his 
own cause, against all law, divine, natural, and human, in a 
place not free, but in or too near his own dominion? to 
which all were not called that had deliberative or consultative 
vo i ce \ i n which none had suffrage but such as were sworn to 
the pope and the church of Rome, and professed enemies to 
all that called for reformation or a free council? And the 
pope c himself, to shew his charity, had declared and pro- 
nounced the appellants heretics, before they were condemned 
by the council. I hope an assembly of enemies are no lawful 
council : and I think the decrees of such an one are omni jure 
nulla, and carry their nullity with them through all law. 
II. Again ; Is that council general that hath none of the 

nasius himself (who was present, and 
surely understood the council of Nice, 
and who presided there, as well as A.C.) 
tells us : Hosius hie est princeps syno- 
dorum. (So belike he presided in other 
councils as well as at Nice.) Hie for- 
mulam fidei in Nicaena synodo conce- 
pit. And this the Arians themselves con- 
fess to Constantius the emperor, then 
seduced to be theirs ; apud S. Atha- 
nas. Epist. ad solitar. vitam agentes. 
But then secondly, I do not except 
against the pope's sitting as president, 
either at Nice or Trent ; for that he 
might do, when called or chosen to it, 
as well as any other patriarch, if you 
consider no more but his sitting as pre- 
sident. But at Nice the cause was not 
his own, but Christ's, against the Ari- 
ans ; whereas at Trent, it was merely 
his own, his own supremacy, and his 
church's corruptions, against the pro- 
testants : and therefore surely not to 
sit president at the trial of his own 
cause, though in other causes he might 
sit as well as other patriarchs. And 
for that of Bellarmine, de Concil. lib. i. 
c. 21. . Tertia conditio, namely, 
" That it is unjust to deny the Roman 
prelate his right (jus suum) in calling 
general councils, and presiding in them., 
in possession of which right he hath 
been for 1500 years;" that is but a 
bold assertion of the cardinal's, by his 
leave ; for he gives us no proof of it 
but his bare word ; whereas the very 
authentic copies of the councils, pub- 
lished and printed by the Romanists 
themselves, affirm clearly they were 
called by emperors, not by the pope; 

and that the pope did not preside in all 
of them. And I hope Bellarmine will 
not expect we should take his bare 
word against the council's. Arid most 
certain it is, that even as Hosius pre- 
sided in the council at Nice, and no 
way that as the pope's legate, so also 
in the second general council, which 
was the first of Constantinople, Necta- 
rius bishop of Constantinople presided. 
Concil. Chalced. Act. vi. p. 136. apud 
Binium. In the third, which was the 
first at Ephesus, St. Cyril of Alexan- 
dria presided. And though pope Cce- 
lestine was joined with him, yet he 
sent none out of the west to that coun- 
cil, till many things were therein fi- 
nished, as appears apud Act. Concil. 
torn. ii. c. 16, 17. In the fourth, at 
Chalcedon, the legates of the bishop of 
Rome had the prime place. In the 
fifth, Eutychius bishop of Constanti- 
nople was president. In the sixth and 
seventh, the legates of the pope were 
president ; yet so as that almost all 
the duty of a moderator or president 
was performed in the seventh by Tha- 
rasius, bishop of Constantinople ; as ap- 
pears manifestly in the Acts of that 
council. And since these seven are all 
the general councils which the Greeks 
and Latins jointly acknowledge, and 
that in these other patriarchs and bi- 
shops presided as oft, at least, as the bi- 
shops of Rome, what is become of 
Bellarmine's brag, that the pope hath 
been possessed of this right of presiding 
in general councils for the space of 
1500 years ? 
c Leo X. Bull. Jun. 8. 1520. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 179 

eastern churches' consent nor presence there ? Are all the Sect. 27. 
Greeks so become non ecclesia, no church, that they have no 
interest in general councils? It numbers indeed among the 
subscribers, six Greeks : they might be so by nation, or by 
title purposely given them ; but dare you say they were 
actually bishops of and sent from the Greek church to the 
council ? Or is it to be accounted a general council, that in 
many sessions had scarce ten archbishops, or forty or fifty 
bishops present ? And for the west of Christendom, nearer 
home, it reckons one English, St. Asaph. But cardinal Pole 
was there too : and English indeed he was by birth, but not 
sent to that council by the king and church of England, but as 
one of the pope's legates ; and so we find him at the five first 
sessions of that council : and at the beginning of the council 
he was not bishop in the church of England ; and after he 
was archbishop of Canterbury, he never went over to the coun- 
cil. And can you prove that St. Asaph went thither by au- 
thority ? There were but few of other nations ; and it may be 
some of them reckoned with no more truth than the Greeks. 
In all the sessions under Paul the Third, but two Frenchmen, 
and sometimes none ; as in the six under Julius the Third, 
when Henry the Second of France protested against that 
council. And in the end, it is well known how all the French 
(which were then a good part) held off, till the cardinal of 
Lorrain was got to Rome. As for the Spaniards, they la- 
boured for many things, upon good grounds, and were most 
unworthily overborne. 

III. To all this A. C. hath nothing to say, but " That it is A. c. p. 6r. 
not necessary to the lawfulness and generalness of a council, 
that all bishops of the world should be actually present, sub- 
scribe, or consent ; but that such promulgation be made, as is 
morally sufficient to give notice that such a council is called, and 
that all may come if they will ; and that a major part, at 
least, of those that are present give assent to the decrees."" 
I will forget, that it was but pag. 59. in which A. C. speaks A. C. p. 59. 
of all pastors ; and those not only summoned, but gathered 
together. And I will easily grant him, that it is not neces- 
sary that all bishops in the Christian world be present and 
subscribe : but sure it is necessary to the generalness of a 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 2 7, 28. council that some be e there, and authorized, for all particu- 
lar churches ; and to the freedom of a council, that all that 
come may come safe ; and to the lawfulness of a council, 
that all may come unengaged, and not fastened to a side, be- 
fore they sit down to argue or deliberate. Nor is such a 
promulgation as A. C- mentions sufficient, but only in case of 
contumacy ; and that where they which are called and refuse 
to come have no just cause for their not coming, as too many 
had in the case of Trent. And were such a promulgation 
sufficient for the generalness of a council, yet for the freedom 
and the lawfulness of it it were not. 

$. So (said I) would Arians say of the council of Nice. 
The bishop would not admit the case to be like : 

Sect. 28. 33* So indeed you said. And not you alone : it is the 
common objection made against all that admit not every 
latter council as fully as that council of Nice, famous through 
all the Christian world. In the mean time, nor you nor they 
consider, that the case is not alike, as I then told you. If 
the case be alike in all, why do not you admit that which was 
held at Ariminum, and the second of Ephesus, as well as 
Nice ? If you say (as yours do) it was because the pope ap- 
proved them not, that is a true cause, but not adequate or 
full : for it was because the whole church refused them f ; with 
whom the Roman prelate (standing then entire in the faith) 
agreed, and so (for his patriarchate) refused those councils. 
But suppose it true that these synods were not admitted, be- 
cause the pope refused them, yet this ground is gained, that 
the case is not alike for men^s assent to all councils. And if 
you look to have this granted, that the pope must confirm, or 
the council is not lawful, we have far more reason to look 
that this be not denied, That the scripture must not be de- 
parted from, in s letter, or necessary sense, or the council is 

e Ut aliqui mittantur, et adveniant, the letter and sense of scripture. They 

et conveniant, &c. Bellarm. de Concil. said so indeed : but the testimony of 

lib. i. c. 17. . Quarta, ut saltern. the whole church, both then and since, 

f Sect. 26. num. I. went with the council against the Ari- 

g Here A. C. tells us, That the Ari- ans. So is it not here against the 

ans thought so of the council of Nice, protestants for Trent ; for they offer 

p. 61, namely, that they departed from to be tried by that very council of Nice, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 181 

not lawful. For the consent and confirmation of scripture is Sect. 28,29. 
of far greater authority to make the council authentical, and 
the decisions of it de fide, than any confirmation of the pope 
can be. Now of these two, the council of Nice, we are sure, 
had the first, the rule of scripture ; and you say it had the 
second, the pope's confirmation. The council of Trent, we 
are able to prove, had not the first ; and so we have no rea- 
son to respect the second. And to what end do your learned 
men maintain, that a council may make a conclusion de fide, 
though it be simply h extra, out of all bound of scripture ; 
but out of a jealousy at least, that this of Trent, and some 
others, have in their determinations left both letter and 
sense of scripture ? Shew this against the council of Nice, and 
I will grant so much of the case to be like. But what will 
you say if iConstantine required, " that things thus brought 
into question should be answered and solved by testimony 
out of scripture f and the bishops of the Nicene council 
never refused that rule. And what will you say if they pro- 
fess they depart not from it, " k but are ready by many testi- 
monies of divine scripture to demonstrate their faith f Is the 
case then alike betwixt it and Trent ? Surely no. But you 
say that I pretended something else, for my not admitting 
the case to be alike. 

Jp Pretending that the pope made bishops of purpose for 
his side. But this the bishop proved not. 

23* I. No : nor had I reason to take on me to prove what Sect. 29. 
I said not. I know it will be expected I should prove what I 
say. And it is hard to prove the purpose of the pope's heart. 
For if it be proved that he made bishops at that time ; that 
some of them were titular only, and had no livelihood to sub- 
sist but out of his purse, (and so must hang their judgment 
at the strings of it ;) that some of these thus made were sent 
to the council and sure not without their errand ; yet if the 

and all the ancient councils and Fathers i Literarum divinitus inspiratarum 

of the church, within the first four hun- testimoniis, in Syn. Nic. lib. ii. torn. i. 

dred years, and somewhat further. per Nicolinum. 

h So Stapleton often ; but the Fathers k Ibid, in Osii sententia, p. 5 1 7. Pa- 
quite otherwise. Quae extra evange- rati ex S. Spiritus arbitrio per plurima 
lium sint, non defendam. Hilar. ad divinarum scripturarum testimonia de- 
Const, lib. ii. monstrare haec ita se habere. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 29. pope will say he neither made nor sent them to overrule the 
Holy Ghost at that meeting, or of purpose for his side, (as no 
question but it will be said,) who can prove it that is not a 
surveyor of the heart ? But though the pope's heart cannot 
be seen, yet if these and the like presumptions be true, it is 
a great sign that Trent was too corrupt and factious a meet- 
ing for the Holy Ghost to be at ; and sure the case in this 
not alike at Nice. 

II. That which I said was, That Trent could be no indif- 
ferent council to the church, the pope having made himself a 
strong party in it. And this I proved, though you be here 
not only content to omit, but plainly to deny the proof. For 
I proved it thus, (and you Answered not,) That there were 
more Italian bishops there, than of all Christendom besides. 
More ! yea more than double. And this I proved out of the 
council itself, which you had in your hand in decimo sexto; 
but had no great heart to look it. For where the number of 
prelates is expressed that had suffrage and vote in that coun- 
cil, the Italians are set down to be one hundred and eighty- 
seven, and all the rest make but eighty-three. So that there 
were more Italian bishops by one hundred and four, than of 
all the rest of Christendom. Sure the pope did not mean to 
be overreached in this council. And whatsoever became of 
his infallibility otherwise, he might this way be sure to be in- 
fallible in whatsoever he would have determined : and this, 

1 Here A. C. is angry, and says, Germany were almost as near as the 

" This was no proof, nor worthy of any Italians themselves. And why then 

answer, or looking into the book for it. came no more of these that were near 

First, because it is only a surmise of enough? Well; A. C. may say what 

adversaries, who are apt to interpret to he will. But the pope remembered well 

the worst. Secondly, because there the councils of Constance and Basil, 

might be more Italian bishops there, as and thought it wisdom to make sure 

being nearer, yet without any factious work at Trent. For in later times 

combination with the pope : as in the (for their own fears, no doubt) the bi- 

Greek councils more Grecians were pre- shops of Rome have been no great 

sent." A. C. p. 62. No proof, or a friends to general councils, especially 

weak one. Let the reader judge that, free ones : Multi suspicantur, quod haec 

But why no proof? Because a surmise dissimulaverit Romana cxiria, et con- 

of adversaries. Is that a surmise of cilia fieri neglexerit, ut possit ad suae 

adversaries that is taken out of the coun- voluntatis libitum plenius dominari, et 

cil itself ? Is that council then become jura aliarum ecclesiarurn liberius usur- 

regnum division, and apt to interpret pare. Quod non assero esse verum, sed 

the worst of itself? Yea, but there quia hujusmodi laborat infamia, ideo,&c. 

were more Italian bishops, as being Pet. de Aliaco, Card. Cameracensis lib. 

nearer. Most true ; nearer a great de Reformat. Eccles. in Fascic. rerum 

deal than the Grecian bishops : but the expetend. fol. 204. A. 
bishops of France and of some parts of 

Fisher the Jesuit. 183 

without all doubt, is all the infallibility he hath. So I proved Sect. 29. 
this sufficiently, I think. For if it were not to be sure of a 
side, give any satisfying reason why such a potent party of 
Italians, more than double to the whole Christian world, 
should be there. Shew me the like for Nice, and I will give 
it that the case is alike between these two councils. 

III. Here Bellarmine comes in to help : but sure it will 
not help you, that he hath offered at as much against the 
council of Nice as I have urged against that at Trent. For 
he tells us, " m That in the council at Nice, there were as few 
bishops of the west present as were of the east at Trent," 
but five in all. Be it so: yet this will not make the case 
alike between the two councils. First, because I press not 
the disparity in number only ; but with it the pope's carriage, 
to be sure of a major part. For it lay upon the pope to make 
sure work at Trent, both for himself and his church. But 
neither the Greek church in general, nor any patriarch of 
the east, had any private interest to look to in the council at 
Nice. Secondly, because I press not so much against the 
council of Trent, That there were so exceeding many bishops 
of the west, compared with those of the east, (for that must 
needs be, when a council is held in the west,) but that there 
were so many more Italians and bishops obnoxious to the 
pope's power, than of all Germany, France, Spain, and all 
other parts of the west besides. Thirdly, because both Bel- 
larmine and A. C. seek to avoid the dint of this argument 
by comparing the western with the eastern bishops, and are 
content to say nothing about the excessive number of Italians 
to others of the west, that will receive a fuller answer than 
any of the rest. For though very few western bishops were 
at the council of Nice, being so remote ; yet at the same 
time pope Sylvester held a council at Rome, in which he with 
two hundred and seventy-five bishops of the west confirmed 
the Nicene Creed, n and anathematized " all those which 
should dare to dissolve the definition of that holy and great 

m In concilio Nicaeno primo ex occi- n Onmes qui ausi fuerint dissolvere 

dente solum fuerunt duo presbyter! definitionem sancti et magni concilii 

missi ex Italia, unus episcopus ex Gal - quod apud Nicaeam congregatum est, 

lia, unus ex Hispania, et unus ex Afri- anatbematizamus. Concil. Rom. 3. sub 

ca. Bellarm. de Concil. lib. i. c. 1 7. Sylvestro. Apud Binium, p. 449. 
. antepenult. 


184 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 29. council." Now let Bellarmine, or A. C., or any else, shew, 
that when the council of Trent sat, there was another coun- 
cil (though never so privately in regard of their miserable op- 
pression) which sat in Greece, or any where in the east, under 
any patriarch or Christian bishop, which did confirm the ca- 
nons of the council of Trent, and anathematize them which 
admitted them not ; and I will confess, they speak home to 
the comparison between the councils, else a blind man may 
see the difference ; and it is a vast one. 

A. C. p. 62. IV. But here A. C. makes account he hath found a better 
reply to this, and now tells us, " that neither French, nor 
Spanish, nor schismatical Greeks did agree with the pro- 
testants in those points which were defined in that council ; 
especially after it was confirmed by the pope ; as appears by 
the censure of Jeremias the Greek patriarch. 1 ' Who agreed 
with the protestants in the points defined by that council, (as 
he speaks,) or rather (to speak properly) against the points 
there defined, I know not. And, for aught A. C. knows, 
many might agree with them in heart, that in such a council 
durst not open themselves. And what knows A. C. how 
many might have been of their opinion, in the main, before 
the council ended, had they been admitted to a fair and a 
free dispute ? And it may be too, some decrees would have 
been more favourable to them, had not the care of the pope's 
interest made them sourer; for else what mean these words, 
" especially after it was confirmed by the pope T As for Je- 
remias, it is true, his censure is, in many things, against the 
protestants ; but I find not that that censure of his is war- 
ranted by any authority of the Greek church, or that he gave 
the protestants any hearing before he passed his censure. 
And at the most, it is but the censure of a schismatic, in 
A. C.'s own judgment. And for his flourish which follows, 
" That east and west would condemn protestants for here- 
tics," I would he would forbear prophesying, till both parts 
might meet in a free general council that sought Christ more 
than themselves. But I find the Jesuit hath not done with 
me yet, but adds : 

,dF. In fine, the 33. wished, that a lawful general council 
were called to end controversies. The persons present 

Fisher the Jesuit. 185 

said, that the king was inclined thereunto, and that there- Sect. 30,31. 

fore we catholics might do well to concur. 

33. And what say you to my wish ? You pretend great love Sect. 30. 
to the truth ; would you not have it found ? Can you or any 
Christian be offended that there should be a good end of con- 
troversies ? Can you think of a better end than by a general 
council ? And if you have a most gracious king inclined unto 
it, (as you say it was offered,) how can you acquit yourselves 
if you do not consent ? Now here A. C. " marvels what kind A. C. p. 62. 
of general council I would have, and what rules I would have 
observed in it, which are morally like to be observed, and 
make an end of controversies, better than their catholic ge- 
neral councils." Truly I am not willing to leave A. C. un- 
satisfied in any thing ; nor have I any meaning to trouble the 
church with any new devisings of mine. Any general council 
shall satisfy me, (and, I presume, all good Christians,) that is 
lawfully called, continued, and ended, according to the same 
course and under the same conditions which general coun- 
cils observed in the primitive church ; which I am sure were 
councils general, and catholic, whatever yours be. But I 
doubt that, after all the noise made about these requisite con- 
ditions, A. C. and his fellows will be found as much, if not 
more defective in performance of the conditions, than in the 
conditions themselves. Well ; the Jesuit goes on, for all 

S> I asked the 33. whether he thought a general council 
might err : he said it might. 

33. I presume you do not expect I should enter into the Sect. 31. 
proof of this controversy, " Whether a general council may 
err in determination or not." Yourself brought no proof 
that it cannot ; and till that be brought, my speech is good 
that it can : and yet I hope to be found no infringer of any 
power given by Christ to his church. But it seems by that 
which follows, you did by this question, " Can a general 
council err T but seek to win ground for your other which 

o Ex iis conciliis quse omnium con- clesiae colligimus quatuor conditiones 
sensu generalia fuerunt, qualia sunt requiri, et sufficere. Bellarm. de Concil. 
quatuor prima : et ex consuetudine ec- lib. i. c. 1 7. . 2. 


186 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 32. $. If a general council may err, what nearer are we then, 
said I, to unity, after a council hath determined ? " Yes," 
said he, " although it may err, yet we should be bound 
to hold with it till another come to reverse it." 

Sect. 32. 35. I. Whether a general council may err or not, is a 
question of great consequence in the church of Christ. To 
say it cannot err, leaves the church not only without remedy 
against an error once determined, but also without sense that 
it may need a remedy, and so without care to seek it, which 
is the misery of the church of Rome at this day. To say it 
can err, seems to expose the members of the church to an 
uncertainty and wavering in the faith; to make unquiet 
spirits not only to disrespect former councils of the church, 
but also to slight and contemn whatsoever it may now deter- 
mine, into which error some opposers of the church of Rome 
have fallen. And upon this is grounded your question, 
" Wherein are we nearer to unity, if a council may err T 
But in relating my answer to this you are not so candid, for 
my words did not sound as yours seem to do, " That we 
should hold with the council, err or not err, till another came 
to reverse it ;" as if grounds of faith might vary at the 
racket, and be cast of each side as a cunning hand might 
lay them. 

II. You forget again, omit at least, (and with what mind 
you best know,) the caution which I added. For I said the 
determination of a general council erring was to stand in force, 
and to have external obedience at the least yielded to it, till 
P evidence of scripture, or a demonstration to the contrary, 
made the error appear, and until thereupon q another council 
of equal authority did reverse it. And indeed I might have 

P Sect. 33. Consid. 5. num. I. II. so in infinitum : so our faith should 
And the reason of this is, because to never have where to settle and rest it- 
have a general council deceived is not self. Maldon. in St. Matth. xviii. 20. 
impossible ; but altogether impossible it But to this I answer, that the ancient 
is that demonstrative reason, or testi- church took this way, as will afterward 
mony divine, should deceive. Hooker, appear in St. Augustine. Next, there 
Eccles. Pol. b. ii. .7. is no uncertainty at all ; for no general 

q In which case Maldonat puts in council, lawfully called and so proceed- 

the shrewdest argument ; namely, that ing, can be questioned in another, un- 

this way we should never have a cer- less it so fall out that evident scripture 

tain end of controversies. For to try or a demonstration appear against it. 

whether any thing were decreed accord- But either of these are so clear and 

ing to the word of God by one general manifest, that there need be no fear of 

council, we should need another coun- proceeding in infinitum, and leaving 

cil ; and then another to try that, and the faith in uncertainty in necessaries 

Fisher the Jesuit. 187 

returned upon you again, If a general council not confirmed Sect. 32. 
by the pope may err, (which you affirm,) to what end then a 
general council ? And you may answer, Yes : for although a 
general council may err, yet the pope, as head of the church, 
cannot. An excellent means of unity, to have all in the 
church as the pope will have it, whatever scripture say or 
the church think. And then, I pray, to what end a general 
council \ Will his holiness be so holy as to confirm a general 
council if it determine against him? And as for Cellar- 
mine's reasons why a general council should be useful if not 
necessary, though the pope be infallible, they are so weak in 
part and in part so unworthy, that I am sorry any necessity 
of a bad cause should force so learned a man to make use 
of them. 

III. Here A. C. tells me. "The caution mentioned as A. c. p. 63, 
omitted makes my answer worse than the Jesuit related it ; 4 * 
and that in two things. First, in that the Jesuit relates it 
thus : Although it may err ; but the caution makes it as if it 
did actually err. Secondly, in that the Jesuit relates, that 
we are bound to hold it till another come to reverse it ; that 
is, we not knowing whether it do err or not, but only that it 
may err. But the caution puts the case so, as if the deter- 
mination of a general council actually erring were not ipso 
jure invalid, but must stand in force and have external obedi- 
ence yielded to it, till not only moral certainty, but evidence 
of scripture, or a demonstration to the contrary, make the 
error appear ; and when it appears, we must yield our obe- 
dience till a council of equal authority reverse it, which per- 
haps will not be found in an whole age. So either the Jesuit 
relates this speech truly or less disgracefully :" and A. C. 
thinks that upon better judgment I will not allow this cau- 
tion. Truly I shall not thank the Jesuit for any his kindness 
here ; and for the caution, I must and do acknowledge it 
mine even upon advisement, and that whether it make my 
answer worse or better. And I think further, that the Jesuit 
hath no great cause to thank A. C. for this defence of his 

to salvation. And in curious specula- cil. . 33. consid. 5. num. 1.2. 

tions it is no matter whether there be r Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. 

certainty or no, with or without a coun- c. 7. . 3, &c. 

138 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 32. IV. First then, the Jesuit (so says A. C.) doth in his 
A. c. p. 6 3- re ] a ^ on make it but a supposition, that a general council may 
err ; but the caution expresses it as actually erring. True, 
but yet I hope this expression makes no general council 
actually err; and then it comes all to one, whether I sup- 
pose that such a council may err or that it do err. And it 
is fitter for clearing the difficulties into which the church falls 
in such a case, to suppose (and more than a supposition it is 
not) a general council s actually erring, than as only under a 
possibility of erring. For the church hath much more to do 
to vindicate itself from such an error actually being, than 
from any the like error that might be. 

A. C. p. 63. V. Secondly, A. C. thinks he hath got great advantage 
by the words of the caution, in that I say, " A general coun- 
cil erring is to stand in force and have external obedience," 
at least so far as it consists in silence, patience, and forbear- 
ance yielded to it, " till evidence of scripture, or a demonstra- 
tion to the contrary, make the error appear, and until there- 
upon another council of equal authority did reverse it." 
Well, I say it again. But is there any one word of mine 
in the caution that speaks of our knowing of this error ? 
Surely not one, (that is A. C.'s addition.) Now suppose a 
general council actually erring in some point of divine truth, 
I hope it will not follow that this error must be so gross as 
that forthwith it must needs be known to private men. And 
doubtless till they know it, obedience must be yielded ; nay, 
when they know it, (if the error be not manifestly against 
fundamental verity, in which case a general council cannot 
easily err,) I would have A. C. and all wise men consider, 
whether external obedience be not even then to be yielded. 
For if controversies arise in the church, some end they 
must have, or they will tear all in sunder ; and I am sure no 
wisdom can think that fit. Why then, say a general council 
err, and an erring decree be ipso jure, by the very law itself 
invalid ; I would have it wisely considered again, whether it 
be not fit to allow a general council that honour and privilege 
which all other great courts have, namely, that there be a 
declaration of the invalidity of its decrees, as well as of the 

s Synodum generalem aliquoties er- Fidei, lib. ii. Art. 2. c. 19. . I. 
rasse percepimus. Wald. de Doctrin. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 189 

laws of other courts, before private men can take liberty to Sect. 32. 
refuse obedience. For till such a declaration, if the council 
stand not in force, A. C. sets up private spirits to control 
general councils, which is the thing he so often and so much 
cries out against in the protestants. Therefore it may seem 
very fit and necessary for the peace of Christendom, that a 
general council thus erring should stand in force, till evidence 
of scripture or a demonstration make the error to appear, 
as that another council * of equal authority reverse it. For 
as for moral certainty, that is not strong enough in points of 
faith, (which alone are spoken of here.) And if another 
council of equal authority cannot be gotten together in an 
age, that is such an inconvenience as the church must bear 
when it happens. And far better is that inconvenience than 
this other, u that any authority less than a general council 
should rescind the decrees of it, unless it err manifestly and 
intolerably ; or that the whole church upon peaceable and 
just complaint of this error neglect or refuse to call a council 
and examine it, and there come in national or provincial 
councils to x reform for themselves. But no way must lie open 
to private men to 7 refuse obedience till the council be heard 
and weighed, as well as that which they say against it, yet 
with zBellarmine^s exception still, " so the error be not mani- 
festly intolerable ;" nor is it fit for private men in such great 
cases as this, upon which the whole peace of Christendom 
depends, to argue thus : The error appears, therefore the 
determination of the council is ipso jure invalid. But this is 
far the safer way (I say still, when the error is neither funda- 
mental nor in itself manifest) to argue thus : The determina- 
tion is by equal authority, and that secundum jus, according 
to law declared to be invalid ; therefore the error appears. 
And it is a more humble and conscientious way for any 
private man to suffer a council to go before him, than for him 

t It is not long since A. C. compared u Sect. 33. consid. 4. num. I. 
councils to parliaments ; it was but p. 60. x Sect. 24. num. I. 
And I hope a parliament and the acts y Sect. 38. num. XV. 
of it must stand in force, though some- z Non est inferiorum judicare an 

thing be mistaken in them, or found superiores legitime procedant necne, 

hurtful, till another parliament of equal nisi manifestissime constet intolerabilem 

authority reverse it and them : for I errorem committi. Bellarm. de Concil. 

presume you will not have any inferior lib. ii. c. 8. . Alii dicunt concilium. 

authority to abrogate acts of parlia- Nisi manifesto constet. Jac. Almain in 

ment. 3. sent. D. 24. q. unica fine. 

]90 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 32, 33. to outrun the council: but weak and ignorant men's out- 
running both God and his church, is as bold a fault now on 
all sides, as the daring of the times hath made it common. 
As for that which I have added concerning the possibility 
of a general council's erring, I shall go on with it without ask- 
ing any further leave of A. C. 

Sect. 33. For upon this occasion I shall not hold it amiss a little 
more at large to consider the point of general councils, how 
they may or may not err; and a little to look into the 
Roman and protestant opinion concerning them, which is 
more agreeable to the power and rule which Christ hath left 
in his church, and which is most preservative of peace esta- 
blished, or ablest to reduce perfect unity into the church of 
Christ, when that poor ship hath her ribs dashed in sunder 
by the waves of contention. And this I will adventure to 
the world but only in the nature of a consideration, and with 
submission to my mother the church of England, and the 
mother of us all, the universal catholic church of Christ, as I 
do most humbly all whatsoever else is herein contained. 

Consid. i. First then, I consider whether all the power that an oecu- 
menical council hath to determine, and all the assistance it 
hath not to err in that determination, it hath it not all from 
the a catholic universal body of the church and clergy in the 
church, b whose representative it is ? And it seems it hath : 
for the government of the church being not c monarchical but 
as Christ is the head, this principle is inviolable in nature : 
Every body collective that represents, receives power and pri- 
vileges from the body which is represented; else a repre- 
sentation might have force without the thing it represents, 
which cannot be. So there is no power in the council, no 
assistance to it, but what is in and to the church. But yet 
then it may be questioned whether the representing body 
hath d all the power, strength, and privilege which the re- 
presented hath? And suppose it hath all the legal power, 

a Si ecclesiae universitati non est data representative, ut nostri loquuntur. 

ulla authoritas, ergo neqne concilio ge- Bellarm. de Eccles. Milit. lib. iii. c. 14. 

nerali, quatenus ecclesiam universalem . 3. 
repraesentat. Bellarm. de Concil. lib. c Sect. 26. num. VIII. 
ii. c. 1 6. . Quod si ecclesia. d Omnis repraesentatio virtu te minor 

b Concilium generale ecclesiam re- est re ipsa, vel veritate cujus represen- 

praesentans. Jac. Almain. in 3. Sent. D. tatio est. Colligitur aperte ex Thorn. 

24. q. unica. Episcopi sunt ecclesia i, 2. q. 101. A. 2. ad 2. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 191 

yet it hath not all the natural, either of strength or wisdom, Sect. 33. 
that the whole hath. Now because the representative hath 
power from the whole, and the main body can meet no other 
way, therefore the acts, laws, and decrees of the represent- 
ative, be it ecclesiastical or civil, are binding in their strength. 
But they are not so certain and free from error as is that 
wisdom which resides in the whole : for in assemblies merely 
civil or ecclesiastical, all the able and sufficient men cannot 
be in the body that represents ; and it is as possible so many 
able 6 and sufficient men (for some particular business) may 
be left out, as that they which are in may miss, or misapply 
that reason and ground upon which the determination is 
principally to rest. Here, for want of a clear view of this 
ground, the representative body errs ; whereas the repre- 
sented, by virtue of those members which saw and knew the 
ground, may hold the principle inviolated. 

Secondly, I consider, that since it is thus in nature and Consid. 2. 
in civil bodies, if it be not so in ecclesiastical too, some rea- 
son must be given why ; f for that body also consists of men : 
those men neither all equal in their perfections of knowledge 
and judgment, whether acquired by industry, or rooted in 
nature, or infused by God. Not all equal, nor any one of 
them perfect and absolute, or freed from passion and human 
infirmities. Nor doth their meeting together make them 
infallible in all things, though the act which is hammered out 
by many together must in reason be perfecter than that 
which is but the child of one man's sufficiency. If then a 
general council have no ground of not erring from the men 
or the meeting, either it must not be at all, or it must be 
by some assistance and power upon them when they are so 
met together ; and this, if it be less than the assistance 
of the Holy Ghost, it cannot make them secure against 

I. Thirdly, I consider, that the assistance of the Holy Consid. 3. 
Ghost is without error: that is no question; and as little 

e Posset enim contingere quod con- iii. cap. 13. 

gregati in concilio general! essent pauci f Ecclesia est unum corpus mysticum 

et viles, tarn in re, quam in hominum per similitudinem ad naturale. Durand. 

reputatione, respectu illorum qui ad 3. D. 14. q. 2. num. 5. Biel. Lect. 

illud concilium generale minime con- 23. in Can. Miss, 
venissent, &c. Och. Dial. par. 3. lib. 

192 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. there is that a council hath it. But the doubt that troubles, 
is, Whether all the assistance of the Holy Ghost be afforded 
in such a high manner, as to cause all the definitions of a 
council in matters fundamental in the faith, and in remote 
deductions from it, to be alike infallible ? Now the Romanists, 
to prove there is s infallible assistance, produce some places of 
scripture ; but no one of them infers, much less enforces, an 
infallibility. The places which Stapleton there rests upon are 
these : h / will send you the Spirit of truth, which will lead you 
into all truth. And, i This Spirit shall abide with you for ever. 
And, k Behold I am with you to the end of the world. To these, 
others add ! the founding of the church upon the rock, 
against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. And Christ's 
prayer for St. Peter, m that his faith fail not. And Christ's 
promise, that n where two or three are gathered together in his 
name, he will be in the midst of them. And that in the Acts, 
It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us. 

II. For the first, which is, leading into all truth, and that 
for ever. P All is not always universally taken in scripture. 
Nor is it here simply for all truth : for then a general coun- 
cil could no more err in matter of fact than in matter of 
faith ; in which yet ( i yourselves grant it may err. But into 
all r truth, is a limited all; into all truth absolutely necessary to 
salvation : and this, when they suffer themselves to be led by 
the blessed Spirit, by the word of God. And all truth which 
Christ had before (at least fundamentally) delivered unto 
them : s ffe shall receive of mine, and shew it unto you. And 
again, t He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your 
remembrance, which I have told you. And for this necessary 
truth too, the apostles received this promise, not for them- 

S Omnem veritatem infallibiliter do- quaestio est de facto, non de jure, &c. 

cendi, &c. Stapl. Relect. Praef. ad Lee- In ejusmodi judiciis concilium errare 

torem. posse non est dubium. 

h John xvi. 13. r Dubium est an illud Docebit om- 

i John xiv. 16. ma, S. Joh. xiv. 26. referendum sit ad 

k Matt, xxviii. 20. illud, Quaecunque dixi vobis: quasi non 

I Matt. xvi. 1 8 aliud docturum Spiritum Sanctum di- 
m Luke xxii. 32. cat, quam quod ipse antea docuisset, 

II Matt, xviii. 20. non repugnabo, si quis ita velit inter- 
Acts xv. 28. pretari, &c. MaJdonat. in S. Joh. xiv. 

p Prosp. de Vocat. Gent. lib. i. c. 10. s John xvi. 14. 
q Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 8. . t John xiv. 26. 
Respondeo quidam, where he saith, Ubi 

Fisher the Jesuit. 193 

selves and a council, but for themselves, and the u whole Sect. 33. 
catholic church ; of which a council, be it never so general, is 
a very little part. Yea, and this very assistance is not so 
absolute, nor in that manner to the whole church, as it was 
to the apostles ; neither doth Christ in that place speak 
directly of a council, but of his apostles 1 preaching and 

III. As for Christ's being with them unto the end of the 
world, the Fathers are so various, that in the sense of the 
ancient church we may understand him present in x majesty, 
in y power, in aid and z assistance against the difficulties 
they should find for preaching Christ, which is the native 
sense, as I take it. And this promise was made to support 
their weakness. As for his presence in teaching by the Holy 
Ghost, a few mention it ; and no one of them which doth 
speaks of any infallible assistance, further than the succeed- 
ing church keeps to the word of the apostles, as the apostles 
kept to the guidance of the Spirit. Besides, the b Fathers 
refer their speech to the church universal, not to any council or 
representative body. And c Maldonate adds, " That this his 
presence by teaching is, or may be, a collection from the place, 
but is not the intention of Christ.'" 

IV. For the rock upon which the church is founded, 
which is the next place, we dare not lay any other foundation 
than d Christ : Christ laid his e apostles, no question, but upon 
himself. With these St. Peter was laid, no man questions, 
and in prime place of order, (would his claiming successors 
be content with that,) as appears, and divers Fathers witness, 
by his particular designment, Tu es Petrus; but yet the rod- 
even there spoken of, is not St. Peter's person, either only, or 
properly, but the faith which he professed. And to this, be- 

u Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 9. . a S. Cyril, lib. vii. Dial, de Trin. 

Alteram. Assistentia Sp. Sancti non Prosp. Epist. ad Demetriadem. 

est propter concil. sed universam ec- b S. Hilar. in Psal. cxxiv. S. Cyril, 

clesiam. lib. vii. de Trin. S. Aug. 6. de Gen. ad 

x S. August. Tr. 50. in S. Joh. Isi- Lit. c. 8. S. Leo, Serm. 10. de Nat. 

dor. I. Sent. cap. 14. Dom. c. 5. Isid. in Jos. c. 12. In all 

yS. Hilar. in Psal. cxxiv. Justin. Mar- which places, vobiscum is either inter- 

tyr. Dial, cum Tryphone. Prosp. Epist. preted cum mis, or fidelibus, or imiver- 

ad Demetriadem. sa ecclesia. 

* S. Hilar. in Psal. cxxiv. Prosp. de c Hoc colligitur, sed quaeritur non 

Vocat. Gent. lib. ii. cap. 2. Leo Serm. 2. quid colligitur, sed quid dicere vomit, 

de Resurrect. Dom, cap. 3. Isidor. in Maldonat. in S. Matt, xxviii. 

Jos. c. 20. d i Cor. iii. 1 1. e Ephes. ii. 20. 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. sides the evidence which is in text and truth, the f Fathers 
come in with very full consent. And this, that the gates of hell 
shall not prevail against it, is not spoken of the not erring of 
the church principally, but of the Snot falling away of it from 
the foundation. Now a church may err, and dangerously too, 
and yet not fall from the foundation ; especially if that of 
hBellarmine be true, " That there are many things, even de 
fide, of the faith, which yet are not necessary to salvation." 
Besides, even here again, the promise of this stable edifica- 
tion is to the whole church, not to a council, at least no 
further than a council builds as a church is built, that is, upon 

V. The next place is Christ's prayer for St. Peter's faith. 
The native sense of which place is, that Christ prayed, and 
obtained for St. Peter perseverance in the grace of God against 
the strong temptation which was to winnow him above the 
rest. But to conclude an infallibility hence in the pope, or 
in his chair, or in the Roman see, or in a general council, 
though the pope be president, I find no one ancient Father 

f S. Ignat. Epist. ad Philadelph. Qui 
suam firmavit ecclesiam super petram, 
aedificatione spirituali S. Hilar. lib. vi. 
de Trin. Super hanc igitur confessio- 
nis petram ecclesiae aedificatio est. Et 
paulo post : Haec fides ecclesiae funda- 
mentum est. S. Greg. Nyss. ad Trin. 
adversus Judfeos : Super hanc petram 
eedificabo ecclesiam meam, super con- 
fessionem videlicet Christi. S. Isid. 
Pelus. Epist. lib. i. epist. 235. Ut hac 
ratione certam omnibus confessionem 
traderet, quam ab eo inspiratus Petrus 
tanquam basin ac fundamentum jecit, 
super quod Dominus ecclesiam suam 
extruxit. S. Cyril. Alexand. de Trin. 
lib. iv. Petram opinor per agnomina- 
tionem, aliud nihil quam inconcussam et 
firmissimam discipuli fidem vocavit, in 
qua ecclesia Christi ita fundata et firmata 
esset, ut non laberetur, &c B. Theo- 
dor. in Cant, petram appellat fidei pie- 
tatem, veritatis professionem, &c. Et 
super hanc petram cediftcabo ecclesiam 
meam. S. Greg. Epist. lib. iii. ep. 33. 
In vera fide persistite, et vitam vestram 
in petram ecclesiae, hoc est, in confes- 
sione B. Petri apostolorum principis 
solidatae. Theophylact. in Matth xvi. 
Super eum aedificavit ecclesiam, quia 
enim confessus erat, &c. quod haec con- 

fessio fundamentum erit, &c. S. Aug. 
in I Epist. S. Johan. tract. 10. Quid 
est. Super hanc petram ? Super hanc 
fidem, super id quod dictum est, Tu es, 

&c S. Bas. Seleuc. Orat. 25. Hanc 

confessionem cum nominasset Christus 
petram, Petrum nuncupat eum qui 
prirnum illam est confessus, donans illi 
hanc appellationem tanquam insigne, et 
monumentum hujus confessionis. Haec 
enim est revera pietatis petra, haec sa- 
lutis basis, &c. S. Jacob. Liturg. 'ETTI 
r^]v irerpav TTJS irlffrewS) p. 26, &c. 
And some which join the person of St. 
Peter, profess it is propter robur con- 
fessionis, Justin. Mart. Dial. cum Tryph. 
S. Chrysost. Horn. 2. in Psal. L S. 
Ambros. lib. x. in S. Luc. xxiv. And 
St. Gregory gives it for a rule, when pe- 
tra is read in the singular number, (and 
so it is here,) Christus est, Christ is 

S Non deficit, S. Bernard. Serm. 79. 
in Cant. And Bellarmine himself going 
to prove ecclesiam non posse deficere, 
begins with this very place of scripture, 
de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 13. 

h De Eccl. lib. iii. c. 14. . Quinto 
si esset. Multa sunt de fide, quae non 
sunt absolute necessaria ad salutem. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 195 

that dare adventure it. And iBellarmine himself, beside some Sect. 33. 
popes in their own cause, (and that in epistles counterfeit, or 
falsely alleged,) hath not a Father to name for this sense of 
the place till he come down to Chrysologus, Theophylact, and 
St. Bernard : of which Chrysologus his speech is but a flash of 
rhetoric ; and the other two are men of yesterday compared 
with antiquity, and lived when (it was God's great grace, and 
learned men's wonder) the corruption of the time had not made 
them corrupter than they are. And k Thomas is resolute, 
that what is meant here beyond St. Peter's person is referred 
to the whole church. And the gloss upon the canon law is 
more peremptory than he, even to the denial that it is 
1 meant of the pope. And if this place warrant not the pope's 
faith, where is the infallibility of the council, that in your 
doctrine depends upon it ? 

VI. The next place is Bellarmine's choice one, and his 
first; and he says it is a " m proper place for proof of the 
infallibility of general councils." This place is Christ's pro- 
mise : n Where two or three are gathered together in my name, 
there am I in the midst of them. And he tells us, " The 
strength of the argument is not taken from these words alone, 
but as they are continued with the former ;" and " that the 
argument is drawn a minori ad majus, from the less to the 
greater." Thus : " Plf two or three gathered together in my 
name do always obtain that which they ask at God's hands, 
to wit, wisdom and knowledge of those things which are 
necessary for them ; how much more shall all the bishops ga- 
thered together (in a council) always obtain wisdom and know- 
ledge to judge those things which belong to the direction of 
the whole church !" I answer ; First, it is most true, that here is 
little strength in these words alone. For, though the Fathers 

i De Rom. Pont. lib. iv. 0.3. debet hue proprie accommodari. Va- 
le 2. 2.q. 2. A. 3. Probat enim ex his lentia in Thorn, torn. iii. Disput. i. R. 

verbis, fidem ecclesiae universalis non i. Puncto 7. . 45. 

posse deficere. " Matt, xviii. 19, 20. 

1 Causa 24. q. i. C. A recta. Non o Addita argnmentatione a minori ad 

de papa, quia papa potest errare. majus, &c. Bellarrn. de Concil. lib. ii. 

m Testimonia propria sunt tria. Pri- c. i. . 4. Et Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. 

mum est Matt, xviii., &c. Bellarm. de q. 3. A. 4. 

Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. . 4. Sed contra, p Si duo vel ires congregate in no- 

firmitas conciliorum proprie non inni- mine meo obtinent semper quod petunt 

titur his verbis. Stapl. Relect. Contro- a Deo, &c. Bellarm. ibid. . 5. 

vers. 6. q. 4. A. 4. ad 4. Locus hie non 

O 2 

196 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. make different interpretations of this place of scripture, yet 
qmost of them agree in this, that this place is to be under- 
stood of consent in prayer ; and this is manifest enough in 
the text itself. Secondly, I think there is as little strength 
in them by the argument drawn a minori ad majus : and that 
I prove two ways ; first, because though that argument hold 
in natural and necessary things, yet I doubt it holds not 
either in voluntary or promised things, or things which de- 
pend upon their institution. For he that promises the less, 
doth not hereby promise the greater ; and he which will do 
the less, will not always do the greater. Secondly, because 
this argument from the less to the greater can never follow, 
but where and so far as the thing upon which the argument 
is founded agrees to the less ; for if it do not always agree 
to the less, it cannot necessarily pass from thence to the 
greater. Now that upon which this argument is grounded 
here is, infallible hearing and granting the prayers of two or 
three met together in the name of Christ. But this infalli- 
bility is not always found in this less congregation, where two 
or three are gathered together. For they often meet and 
pray, yet obtain not, because " there are divers other con- 
ditions necessarily required," as St. Chrysostom r observes, "to 
make the prayers of a congregation heard, beside their ga- 
thering together in the name of Christ." And therefore it is 
not extended to a greater congregation or council, unless the 
same conditions be still observed. Neither doth Christ's pro- 
mise, Ero in medio, I will be in the midst of them, infer that 
they, the greater or the less, three or three hundred, have 
all, even s necessary things, infallibly granted unto them as oft 
as they ask, if they ask not as well as they ought as what 

q S. Chrys. Hom.6i. in S. Matt, xviii. mine Christi. Sed, &c. lib. iv. de No- 

Ubi duo vel tres pan spiritu et volun- tis Ecclesiae, c. 2. . Tertius non. 

tate collect! sunt, &c. Theoph. in S. s Etsi Christus adsit in medio talium 

Matt, xviii. S. Cyprian, lib. iv. epist. 4. non adest tamen ad omnem effectum, 

S. Hilar. in S. Matt, xviii. aut ad hunc qui est judicare de fide. 

r Quomodo igitur a Patre cuncta non Stapl. Relect. Controv. 6. q. 3. A. 4 

consequentur ? Quia multae sunt cau- Sed nee illi semper ad Deum respiciunt 

sae non impetrandi, &c. S. Chrysost. qui in medio eorum est. Nee Dens sic 

Horn, in S. Matt, xviii. Et Bellarm. adest iis qui respiciunt ad ipsum, ut 

ipse : Si congregari in nomine Christi omnem veritatem doceat in instanti et 

sit nota ecclesiae, non erit quomodocun- omni tempore simul, &c. Junius in 

que congregari. Sic enim omnes hae- Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. 
reses, et schismata congregantur in no- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 197 

they ought. And yet most true it is, that where more or Sect. 33. 
fewer are gathered together in the name of Christ, there is 
he in the midst of them ; but to assist and to grant whatso- 
ever he shall find fit for them, not infallibly whatsoever they 
shall think fit to ask for themselves. And therefore St. Cy- 
prian, though he use this very argument a minori ad ma- 
jus, from the less to the greater, yet he presumes not to 
extend it, as Bellarmine doth, to the obtaining of infallibility ; 
but only useth it in the general way, in which there neither 
is nor can be doubt of the truth of it : thus : " tjf two that 
are of one mind to God- ward can do so much, what might 
be done if there were unanimity among all Christians f 
Undoubtedly more, but not all whatsoever they should ask, 
unless all other requisites were present. Thirdly, in this their 
own u great champions disagree from Bellarmine, or he from 
them. For Gregory de Valentia and Stapleton tell us, 
" That this place doth not belong properly to prove an infal- 
lible certainty of any sentence, in which more agree in the 
name of Christ ; but to the efficacy of consent for obtaining 
that which more shall pray for in the name of Christ, if at 
least that be for their soul's health. For else you may prove 
out of this place, that not only the definition of a general 
council, but even of a provincial, nay, of two or three bi- 
shops gathered together, is valid, and that without the 
pope's assent." 

VII. The last place mentioned for the infallibility of 
general councils is that, Acts xv., where the apostles say of 
themselves and the council held by them, K It seems good to 
the Holy Ghost and to us. And they might well say it ; for 
they had infallibly the assistance of the Holy Ghost, and they 
kept close to his direction. But I do not find that any ge- 

t Si duo unanimes tantum possunt, Greg, de Valen. torn. ii. in Thorn. Dis- 

quid si unanimitas apud omnes esset? put. i. q. i. puiict. 7. .45. And al- 

S. Cypr. lib. iv. epist. 4. though Stapleton approves this argu- 

u Non ad infallibilem certitudinem ment a minori ad majus, yet withal he 

alicujus sententiae, in quam plures in says, Firmitas conciliorura illis Christi 

nomine Christi consentiunt, locus hie verbis proprie non innititur ; quia nee 

evangelii proprie accommodari debet, Christus ibi de conciliis episcoporum lo- 

sed ad efficaciam consensionis plurium quitur, sed de quavis fidelium unanimi 

ad id impetrandum, quod unanimiter in congregatione. Nee etsi, &c. Stapl. 

Christi nomine petunt, si id quidem ad Relect. Controv. 6. q. 6. A. 4. 
eorum salutem expediat. Secus enim x Acts xv. 28. 
non modo ex illo loco probabitur, &c. 


198 ArcJibisJiop Laud against 

Sect. 33. neral council since, though they did implore (as they ought) 
the assistance of that blessed Spirit, did ever take upon them 
to say, in terminis, in express terms of their definitions, Vi- 
sum est Spiritui Sancto et nobis ; It seemed good to the Holy 
Ghost and to us. Acknowledging even thereby (as I con- 
ceive) a great deal of difference in the certainty of those 
things which a general council at after determined in the 
church, and those which were settled by the apostles when 
they sat in council. But though I do not find that they used 
this speech punctually and in terms, yet the Fathers, when 
they met in council, were confident, and spake it out, that 
they had assistance from the Holy Ghost ; yet so as that 
they neither took themselves nor the councils they sat in as 
infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost, as the apostles were. 
And Valentia is very right : " yThat though the council say 
they are gathered together in the Holy Ghost, yet the Fathers 
are neither arrogant in using the speech, nor yet infallible for 
all that."" And this is true, whether the pope approve or 
disapprove their definitions, though Valentia will not admit 
that : the pope must be (with him) infallible, whatever come 
of it. Now though this be but an example, and include no 
precept, yet both z Stapleton and a Bellarmine make this place 
a proper proof of the infallibility of general councils. And 
b Stapleton says, " The decrees of councils are the very oracles 
of the Holy Ghost ;" which is little short of blasphemy. And 
c Bellarmine adds, " That because all other councils borrowed 
their form from this, therefore other lawful councils may 
affirm also that their decrees are the decrees of the Holy 
Ghost; 11 little considering therewhile, that it is one thing 
to borrow the form, and another thing to borrow the cer- 
tainty and the infallibility of a council. For suppose that 
after-councils did follow the form of that first council exactly 

- v Quintum argumentnm, &c. Aut tertium e propriis. De Concil. lib. ii. c. 

sunt ergo arrogantes, quod putandum 2. . Tertius locus, 
iion est, aut infallibiliter definiunt. b Conciliorum decreta sunt Spiritus 

Responded Valentia concedendo neu- Sancti oracula. Stapl. ibid. Sententia 

trum : torn. iii. in Thorn. Disp. i. q. i. orthodoxa prima. 
punct.^7. . 45. c Si illud concilium ex quo formam 

z Firmitas eorum nititur exemplo acceperunt omnia alia concilia asserit 

primi coricilii. Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. decreta sua esse decreta Spiritus Sancti, 

q. 3. A. 4. ad 3. certe idem asserere possunt caetera legi- 

a Et Bellarm. dicit locum hunc esse tima concilia, &c. Bellarm. ibid. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 199 

in all circumstances, yet I hope no advised man will say, Sect. 33. 
there is the like infallibility in other councils, where no man 
sat that was inspired, as was in this, where all that sat as 
judges were inspired. Or if any Jesuit will be so bold as to 
say it, he had need bring very good proof for it, and far 
better than any is brought yet. Now that all councils are 
not so infallible as was this of the apostles, nor the causes 
handled in them as there they were, is manifest by d one of 
their own ; who tells us plainly, " That the apostles in their 
council dealt very prudently, did not precipitate their judg- 
ment, but weighed all things. For in matters of faith, and 
which touch the conscience, it is not enough to say, Volumus 
et mandamus, We will and command. And thus the apostles 
met together in simplicity and singleness, seeking nothing but 
God, and the salvation of men. And what wonder if the 
Holy Ghost were present in such a council? Nos aliter, &c. But 
we meet otherwise, in great pomp, and seek ourselves ; and 
promise ourselves, that we may do any thing out of the ple- 
nitude of our power. And how can the Holy Ghost allow 
of such meetings f And if not allow or approve the meetings, 
then certainly not concur to make every thing infallible that 
shall be concluded in them. 

VIII. And for all the places together, weigh them with 
indifferency, and either they speak of the church (including 
the apostles) as all of them do ; and then all grant the voice 
of the church is God's voice, divine and infallible : or else 
they are general, unlimited, and appliable to private assem- 
blies as well as general councils ; which none grant to be in- 
fallible but some mad enthusiasts. Or else they are limited, 
not simply into all truth, but all necessary to salvation ; in 
which I shall easily grant a general council cannot err, suf- 
fering itself to be led by this Spirit of truth in the scripture, 
and not taking upon it to lead both the scripture and the 
Spirit. For suppose these places, or any other, did promise 

d Vide quam prudenter, agunt non &c. Quid igitur mirum si in hoc con- 

praecipitant sententiam, sed singula ex- cilio fuerit Spiritus Sanctus ? &c. Nos 

pendunt. In rebus enim fidei et quae aliter convenimus, nempe cum magna 

conscientiam tangunt, non satis est di- pompa, nosque ipsos quserimus ; atque 

cere, Volumus et mandamus. Vides nobis pollicemur nihil nobis non licere 

igitur quomodo conveniunt apostoli, de plenitudine potestatis. Et quomodo 

simpliciter conveniunt, nihil nisi Deum Spiritus Sanctus ejusmodi concilia pro- 

quaerunt, et aliorum salutem expetunt, bare possit ? Ferus in Act. xv. 7. 

o 4 

200 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. assistance even to infallibility, yet they granted it not to 
every general council, but to the catholic body of the church 
itself; and if it be in the whole church principally, then is it 
in a general council, but by consequence, as the council re- 
presents the whole ; and that which belongs to a thing by 
consequent doth not otherwise nor longer belong unto it 
than it consents and cleaves to that upon which it is a 
consequent. And therefore a general council hath not this 
assistance, but as it keeps to the whole church and spouse 
of Christ, whose it is to hear his word and determine by it ; 
and therefore if a general council will go out of the church's 
way, it may easily go without the church's truth. 
Consid. 4. I. Fourthly, I consider that all agree, that the church in 
general can never err from the faith necessary to salvation : 
no persecution, no temptation, no e gates of hell (whatsoever 
is meant by them) can ever so prevail against it : for all the 
members of the militant church cannot err, either in the 
whole faith or in any article of it ; it is impossible. For if all 
might so err, there could be no union between them as mem- 
bers and Christ the head ; and no union between head and 
members, no body, and so no church, which cannot be : but 
there is not the like consent, that f general councils cannot 
err. And it seems strange to me, the Fathers having to do 
with so many heretics, and so many of them opposing church 
authority, that in the condemnation of those heretics this 
proposition, even in terms, A general council cannot err, 
should not be found in any one of them that I can yet see. 
Now suppose it were true, that no general council had erred 
in any matter of moment to this day, which will not be found 
true, yet this would not have followed, that it is therefore 
infallible and cannot err. I have no time to descend into 
particulars, therefore to the general still. St. Augustine h puts 
a difference between the rules of scripture and the definitions 
of men. This difference is, Prceponitur scriptum, that the 
scripture hath the prerogative. " That prerogative is, that 
whatsoever is found written in scripture may neither be 

e Matt. xvi. 28. Fid. lib. ii. Art. 2. c. 19. . i Sect. 38. 

f Ecclesia universalis fidem habet in- num. IV. 

defectibilem, &c. Non quidem in gene- h S. August, de Bapt. contra Donat. 

rali synodo congregata, quam aliquoties lib. ii. cap. 3. 
errasse percepimus, &c. Wald. Doct. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 201 

doubted nor disputed whether it be true or right. But the Sect. 33. 
letters of bishops may not only be disputed, but corrected by 
bishops that are more learned and wise than they, or by 
national councils, and national councils by plenary or gene- 
ral : and even 5 plenary councils themselves may be amended, 
the former by the latter." It seems it was no news with St. 
Augustine that a general council might err, and therefore 
inferior to the scripture, which may neither be doubted nor 
disputed where it affirms. And if it be so with the definition 
of a council too, (as k Stapleton would have it,) that they may 
neither be doubted nor disputed, where is then the scrip- 
ture's prerogative? 

II. I know there is much shifting about this place, but 
it cannot be wrastled off. Stapleton says first, that St. 
Augustine speaks of the rules of manners and discipline, and 
this is Bellarmine's last shift : both are out, and Bellarmine 
in a contradiction. Bellarmine in a contradiction; for first 
he tells us " general councils cannot err in m precepts of man- 
ners ;" and then, to turn off St. Augustine in this place, he 
tells us, that if St. Augustine doth not speak of matter of 
fact, but of right and of universal questions of right, then is 
he to be understood of "precepts of manners, not of points 
of faith : where he hath first run himself upon a contradic- 
tion, and then we have gained this ground upon him, that 
either his answer is nothing, or else against his own state 
of the question, " A general council can err in precepts of 
manners." So belike, when Bellarmine is at a shift, a gene- 
ral council can and cannot err in precepts of manners. And 
both are out : for the whole dispute of St. Augustine is 
against the error of St. Cyprian, followed by the Donatists, 
which was an error in faith ; namely, " That true baptism 
could not be given by heretics, and such as were out of 
the church." And the proof which Stapleton and Bellarmine 
draw out of the subsequent words (" when by any experi- 
ment of things that which was shut is opened") is too weak; 

i Ipsaque plenaria ssepe priora a pos- Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 4. 
terioribus emendari. m De Concil. lib. ii. c. 2. princip. 

k Vox ecclesiae talis est, ut non de n Ibid. cap. 7. . Potest etiam. 
ea judicemus rectene an secus docuerit. o Quando aliquo rerum experimento, 

So Stapl. Relect. c. 4. q. i. A. i. quod clausum erat, aperitur, 

1 De regulis morum et disciplina. 

Ar Mishap Laud against 

Sect. 33. for experiment there is not of fact, nor are the words con- 
clusum est as if it were of a rule of discipline concluded, as 
Stapleton cites them, but a further experiment or proof of 
the question in hand, and pertaining to faith which was 
then shut up, and, as St. Augustine after speaks, P wrapped 
up in cloudy darkness. 

III. Next, Stapleton ^will have it, that if St. Augustine 
do speak of a cause of faith, then his meaning is, that later 
general councils can mend, that is, explicate more perfectly 
that faith which lay hid in the seed of ancient doctrine. He 
makes instance, that about the divinity of Christ, the council 
of Ephesus explicated the first of Nice ; Chalcedon, both of 
them; Constantinople, Chalcedon : and then concludes, " r in all 
which things none of (these) councils taught that which was 
erroneous." An excellent conclusion : these councils and these 
in this thing taught no error, and were only explained ; there- 
fore no council can err in any matter of faith ; or, therefor* 
St. Augustine speaks not of an emendation of error, but of 
an explanation of sense ; whereas every eye sees neither of 
these can follow. 

IV. Now that St. Augustine meant plainly, that even a 
plenary council might err, and that s often, (for that is his 
word,) and that in matter of faith, and might and ought so 
to be amended in a later council, I think, will thus appear. 
First, his word is emendari, to be amended ; which properly 
supposes for error and faultiness, not explanation. And St. 
Augustine needed not to go to a word of such a l forced sense, 
nor sure would, especially in a disputation against adversa- 
ries. Next, St. Augustine's dispute is against St. Cyprian 
and the council held at Carthage, about baptism by heretics ; 
in which point that national council erred, (as now all agree.) 
And St. Augustine's deduction goes on, Scripture cannot be 
other than right, that is, the prerogative of it ; but bishops 

P Ibid. c. 4. Nebulis involuta. s Saepe. 

Q Sensus est, quod concilia posteriora t Not used, but either for corrigere 

emendant, id est, perfectius explicaut or auferre : and so St. Augustine uses 

fidem in semine antiquae doctrinae la- the word, Contra Faust, lib. xx. c. 21. 

tentem, &c. Stapl. Relect. Contr. 6. And Bellarmirie, though he interpret it 

q. 3. A. 4. i n matter of fact, yet equals the word 

r Qua in re nihil erroneum ullum with correxit, de Concil.1.2. c. 8.. Re- 
concilium docuit, &c. spond. Quaest. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 203 

may, and be u reprehended for it, if peradventure they x err Sect. 33. 
from the truth ; and that either by more learned bishops, or 
by provincial councils. Here reprehension, and that for de- 
viation from the truth, is (I hope) emendation properly, and 
not explanation only. Then provincial councils, they must 
y yield to general : and to yield is not in case of explanation 
only. Then it follows, that even plenary councils themselves 
may be amended, the former by the later; still retaining 
that which went before, " if peradventure they erred, or made 
deviation from the truth." And if this be not so, I would fain 
know why in one and the same tenor of words, in one and 
the same continuing argument and deduction of St. Augus- 
tine, repreJiendi should be in proper sense, and a veritate 
deviatum in proper sense, and cedere in proper sense, and 
only emendari should not be proper, but stand for an expla- 
nation ? If you say the reason is, because the former words 
are applied to men and national councils, both which may 
err, but this last to general councils, which cannot err ; this 
is most miserable begging of the principle and thing in 

V. Again ; St. Augustine concludes there, that the general 
council preceding may be amended by general councils that 
follow, " z when that is known which lay hid before." Not as 
Stapleton would have it, lay hid as in the seed of ancient 
doctrine only, and so needed nothing but explanation ; but 
hid in some darkness or ambiguity, which led the former into 
error and mistaking, as appears : for St. Augustine would 
have this amendment made without sacrilegious pride, doubt- 
less of insulting upon the former council that was to be 
amended; and without swelling arrogancy, sure against the 
weakness in the former council ; and without contention of 
envy, which uses to accompany man's frailty, where his or 
his friend's error is to be amended by the later council ; and 
in holy humility, in catholic peace, in Christian charity, no 
question that a schism be not made to tear the church (as 
here the Donatist's did) while one council goes to reform the 
lapse of another, if any be. Now to what end should this 

u Reprehend!. y Cedere. 

x Si quid in iis forte a veritate de- z Quum cognoscitur quod latebat. 
viatum est. 

204 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. learned Father be so zealous in this work, this highest work 
that I know in the church, reviewing and surveying general 
councils, to keep off pride and arrogance and envy, and to 
keep all in humility, peace, and charity, if after all this 
noise he thought later councils might do nothing but amend, 
that is, explain the former ? 

VI. That shift which a Bellarmine adds to these two of 
Stapleton is poorest of all, namely, that St. Augustine speaks 
of unlawful councils ; and it is no question but they may be 
amended, as the second Ephesine was at Chalcedon : for this 
answer hath no foundation but a peradventure ; nor durst 
Bellarmine rest upon it. And most manifest it is that St. 
Augustine speaks of councils in general, that they may err, 
and be amended in doctrine of faith ; and in case they be 
not amended, that then they be condemned and rejected by 
the church, as this of Ephesus and divers others were. And 
as for that mere trick of the b pope's instruction, approbation, 
or confirmation, to preserve it from error, or ratify it that 
it hath not erred, the most ancient church knew it not. He 
had his suffrage as other great patriarchs had, and his vote 
was highly esteemed, not only for his place, but for worth 
too, as popes were then. But that the whole council de- 
pended upon him and his confirmation, was then unknown, 
and I verily think, at this day not believed by the wise and 
learned of his adherents. 

Consid. 5. I. Fifthly, it must be considered, if a general council may 
err, who shall judge it 2 St. Augustine is at c priora a pos- 
ter ioribus, nothing sure that is less than a d general council. 
Why, but this yet lays all open to uncertainties, and makes 
way for a whirlwind of a private spirit to ruffle the church. 
No, neither of these : first, all is not open to uncertainties ; 
for general councils lawfully called and ordered, and lawfully 
proceeding, are a great and an awful representation, and 
cannot err in matters of faith ; keeping themselves to God's 
rule, and not attempting to make a new of their own; 
and are with all submission to be observed by every Chris- 
tian, where scripture or evident demonstration come not 
against them. Nor doth it make way for the whirlwind of a 

a Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 7. . b Sect. 26. num. I. 
Respondeo primo forte. c Ibid. d Sect. 32. num. V. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 205 

private spirit ; for private spirits are too giddy to rest upon Sect. 33. 
scripture, and too heady and shallow to be acquainted with 
demonstrative arguments. And it were happy for the church, 
if she might never be troubled with private spirit still they 
brought such arguments. I know this is hotly objected 
against e Hooker ; the f author calls him a " Swise protestant," 
yet turns thus upon him : " If a council must yield to a de- 
monstrative proof, who shall judge whether the argument 
that is brought be a demonstration or not T For every man 
that will kick against the church will say, the scripture he 
urges is evident, and his reason a demonstration. And what 
is this, but to leave all to the wildness of a private spirit 2 Can 
any ingenuous man read this passage in Hooker, and dream 
of a private spirit 2 For to the question, Who shall judge 2 
Hooker answers, as if it had been then made; " h An argu- 
ment necessary and demonstrative is such," saith he, " as 
being proposed to any man and understood, the mind cannot 
choose but inwardly assent unto it." So it is not enough 
to think or say it is demonstrative. The light then of a 
demonstrative argument is the evidence which itself hath 
in itself to all that understand it. Well; but because all 
understand it not, if a quarrel be made who shall decide it 2 
No question 'but a general council, not a private spirit : first, 
in the intent of the author ; for Hooker in all that discourse 
makes the sentence of the council k binding; and therefore 
that is made judge, not a private spirit. And then for the 
judge of the argument it is as plain ; for if it be evident to 
any man, then to so many learned men as are in a council 
doubtless : and if they cannot but assent, it is hard to think 
them so impious that they will define against it; and if 
that which is thought evident to any man be not evident 
to such a grave assembly, it is probable it is no demon- 
stration, and the producers of it ought to rest, and not to 
trouble the church. 

II. Nor is this Hookers alone, nor is it newly thought on 
by us ; it is a ground in nature which grace doth ever set 

e Praefat. p. 29. of a pretext of seeming evident scrip- 

f Dial, dictus, Deus et Rex. ture or demonstration, as he doth, p. 59. 
e Cordatus protestans. i Sect. 32. num. II. 

h Praefat. p. 29. And therefore A. C. k Prsefat. p. 28. 
is much to blame after all this, to talk 

206 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. right, never undermine. And ! St. Augustine hath it twice in 
one chapter, " That St. Cyprian and that council at Carthage 
would have presently yielded to any one that would m de- 
monstrate truth." Nay, it is a rule with n him, " Consent of 
nations, authority confirmed by miracles and antiquity, St. 
Peter's chair and succession from it, motives to keep him in 
the catholic church, must not hold him against demonstra- 
tion of truth; which if it be so clearly demonstrated that 
it cannot come into doubt, it is to be preferred before all 
those things by which a man is held in the catholic church. " 
Therefore an evident scripture or demonstration of truth 
must take place every where ; but where these cannot be had, 
there must be submission to authority. 

III. And doth not Bellarmine himself grant this? for, 
speaking of councils, he delivers this proposition, " That in- 
feriors may not judge whether their superiors (and that in a 
council) do proceed lawfully or not." But then having be- 
thought himself, that inferiors at all times and in all causes 
are not to be cast off, he adds this exception, " P unless it 
manifestly appear that an intolerable error be committed." 
So then, if such an error be, and be manifest, inferiors may 
do their duty, and a council must yield ; unless you will 
accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a private spirit: for 
neither doth he express who shall judge, whether the error 
be intolerable. 

IV. This will not down with you ; but the definition of a 
general council is and must be infallible. Your fellows tell 
us, (and you can affirm no more,) " That the voice of the 
church determining in council is not q human, but divine." 
That is well ; divine, then sure infallible : yea, but the pro- 
position sticks in the throat of them that would utter it. It 
is not divine simply, but in a r manner divine. Why but then 
sure not infallible, because it may speak loudest in that man- 

1 De Bapt. cont. Donat. 2. c. 4. constet intolerabilem errorem coui- 

m Uni verumdicenti et demonstranti. mitti. 

n Cont. Fund. cap. 4. q Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 3. A. I, 

Quse quidem si tarn manifesta mon- r Divina suo modo. Ibid. And so 

stratur, ut in dubium venire non possit, A. C. too ; who hath opened his month 

praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus, qui- very wide, to prove the succession of 

bus in catholica teneor : ita si aliquid pastors in the church to be of divine 

apertissimum in evangelic. Ibid. cap. 4. and infallible authority; yet in the 

P De Concil. lib. ii. c. 8. . Alii di- close is forced to add, " at least, in 

cunt concilium. Nisi manifestissime some sort." p. 51. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 207 

ner in which it is not divine. Nay, more : " The church (for- Sect. 33. 
sooth) is an infallible foundation of faith s in an higher kind 
than the scripture : for the scripture is but a foundation in 
testimony, and matter to be believed ; but the church as the 
efficient cause of faith, and, in some sort, the very formal." 
Is not this blasphemy ? Doth not this knock against all evi- 
dence of truth, and his own grounds that says it ? Against all 
evidence of truth ; for in all ages, all men that once admitted 
the scripture to be the word of God (as all Christians do), do 
with the same breath grant it most undoubted and infallible. 
But all men have not so judged of the church's definitions, 
though they have in greatest obedience submitted to them. And 
against his own grounds that says it : for the scripture is ab- 
solutely and every way divine ; the church's definition is but 
suo tnodo, in a sort or manner, divine. But that which is but 
in a sort can never be a foundation in an higher degree than 
that which is absolute, and every way such : therefore neither 
can the definition of the church be so infallible as the scrip- 
ture ; much less in altiori genere, in a higher kind than the 
scripture. But because when all other things fail you fly to 
this, that the church's definition in a general council is by 
inspiration, and so divine and infallible, my haste shall not 
carry me from a little consideration of that too. 

I. Sixthly then, if the definition of a general council be Consid. 6. 
infallible, then the infallibility of it is either in the conclu- 
sion and in the means that prove it ; or in the conclusion, not 
the means ; or in the means, not the conclusion. But it is 
infallible in none of these. Not in the first, the conclusion 
and the means : for there are divers deliberations in. general 
councils, where the conclusion is catholic ; but the means by 
which they prove it not infallible. Not the second, the con- 
clusion and not the means : for the conclusion must follow 
the nature of the premises or principles out of which it is de- 
duced ; therefore, if those which the council uses be some- 
times uncertain, as is proved before, the conclusion cannot be 
infallible. Not in the third the means and not the conclu- 
sion : for that cannot but be true and necessary, if the means 
be so. And this I am sure you will never grant ; because if 

s In altiori genere, viz. in genere parte formalis. Ibid. q. 4. A. 3. 
rausae efficientis, atque adeo aliqua ex 

208 ArcMwlwp Laud against 

Sect. 33. you should, you must deny the infallibility which you seek to 

II. To this (for I confess the argument is old, but can 
never be worn out nor shifted off) your great master *Sta- 
pleton (who is miserably hampered in it, and indeed, so are 
you all) answers, " That the infallibility of a council is in the 
second course; that is, u it is infallible in the conclusion, 
though it be uncertain and fallible in the means and proof of 
it." How comes this to pass 2 It is a thing altogether un- 
known in nature and art too, that fallible principles can 
either father or mother, beget or bring forth, an infallible 

III. Well, that is granted in nature and in all argumen- 
tation that causes knowledge. But we shall have reasons for 
it, x first, because the church is discursive, and uses the 
weights and moments of reason in the means ; but is prophe- 
tical, and depends upon immediate revelation from the Spirit 
of God in delivering the conclusion. It is but the making of 
this appear, and all controversy is at an end. Well, I will 
not discourse here to what end there is any use of means if 
the conclusion be prophetical, which yet is justly urged ; for 
no good cause can be assigned of it. If it be prophetical in 
the conclusion, (I speak still of the present church ; for that 
which included the apostles, which had the spirit of prophecy 
and immediate revelation, was ever prophetic in the defini- 
tion ; but then that was infallible in the means too,) then 
since it delivers the conclusion not according to nature and 
art, that is, out of principles which can bear it, there must 
be some supernatural authority which must deliver this truth ; 
that (say I) must be the scripture. For if you fly to imme- 
diate revelation now, the enthusiasm must be yours. But the 
scriptures, which are brought in the very exposition of all the 
primitive church, neither say it, nor enforce it. Therefore 
scripture warrants not your prophecy in the conclusion : and 
I know no other thing that can warrant it. If you think the 
tradition of the church can make the world beholden to you. 

t Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. ad A. n. and examine the means. And there- 

u And herein I must needs commend fore you do most advisedly make them 

your wisdom : for you have had many infallible in the conclusion without the 

popes so ignorant, grossly ignorant, as means. . 39. num. VIII. 

that they have been no way able to sift x Ibid. not. 4. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 209 

produce any Father of the church that says this is an univer- Sect. 33. 
sal tradition of the church, that her definitions in a general 
council are prophetical, and by immediate revelation ; pro- 
duce any one Father that says it of his own authority, that he 
thinks so ; nay, make it appear that ever any prophet, in 
that which he delivered from God as infallible truth, was 
ever discursive at all in the means ; nay, make it but pro- 
bable in the ordinary course of prophecy, (and I hope you go 
no higher, nor will I offer at God's absolute power,) that that 
which is discursive in the means can be prophetic in the con- 
clusion, and you shall be my great Apollo for ever. In the 
mean time I have learnt this from y yours, " That all pro- 
phecy is by vision, inspiration," &c., and that no vision ad- 
mits discourse ; that all prophecy is an illumination, not al- 
ways present, but when the word of the z Lord came to them ; 
and that was not by discourse. And yet you a say again, 
" That this prophetic infallibility of the church is not gotten 
without study and industry." You should do well to tell us 
too, why God would put his church to study for the spirit of 
prophecy, which never any particular prophet was put unto ; 
b and whosoever shall study for it shall do it in vain, since 
prophecy is a c gift, and can never be an acquired habit. 
And there is somewhat in it, that Bellarmine, in all his dis- 
pute for the authority of general councils, dares not come at 
this rock. (1 He prefers the conclusion and the canon before 
the acts and the deliberations of councils, and so do we ; but 
I do not remember that ever he speaks out, that the con- 
clusion is delivered by prophecy or revelation. Sure he 
sounded the shore, and found danger here. He did sound it; 
for a little before he speaks plainly, (would his bad cause let 
him be constant,) " e Councils do deduce their conclusions." 
What ! from inspiration ? " No, but out of the word of 

y Prophetae audiebant a Deo interius Averrorem, &c. Fran. Picus, 2. Praenot. 

inspirante. Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. 5. A. t. c. 4. 

ad 3. c i Cor. xii. 10. 

z The word of the Lord came unto d De Coiicil. lib. ii. c. 12. 

me, is common in the Prophets. e Concilia non habent, neque scribunt 

a Stapl. Relect. cont. 4. q. 2. p. 473. immediatas revelationes, &c. sed ex 

b Propheticam revelationem nullo verbo Dei per ratiocinatkmem deducunt 

pacto haberi posse, vel ope naturae, vel conclusiones. Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. 

studio, contra Avicennarn Algazalerri, cap. 12. . Dicuntur. 


210 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. God ; and that per ratiocinationem, by argumentation :" nei- 
ther have they nor do they write any immediate revelations. 

IV. The second reason why kgtapleton will have it pro- 
phetic in the conclusion is, " Because that which is deter- 
mined by the church is matter of faith, not of knowledge ; and 
that therefore, the church proposing it to be believed, though it 
use means, yet it stands not upon art, or means, or argument, 
but the revelation of the Holy Ghost : else, when we embrace 
the conclusion proposed, it should not be an assent of faith, 
but an habit of knowledge. 11 This for the first part That the 
church uses the means, but follows them not is all one in sub- 
stance with the former reason : and for the latter part That 
then our admitting the decree of a council would be no assent 
of faith, but an habit 'of knowledge what great inconve- 
nience is there if it be granted ? For I think it is undoubted 
truth, that one and the same conclusion may be faith to the 
believer that cannot prove, and knowledge to the learned 
that can. And sSt. Augustine I am sure, in regard of one 
and the same thing, even this, the very wisdom of the church 
in her doctrines, ascribes understanding to one sort of men, 
and belief to another weaker sort ; and h Thomas goes with 

V. Now for further satisfaction, if not of you, yet of 
others, this may well be thought on ; Man lost by sin the 
integrity of his nature, and cannot have light enough to see 
the way to heaven but by grace. This grace was first me- 
rited, after given by Christ: this grace is first kindled by 
faith ; by which, if we agree not to some supernatural prin- 
ciples which no reason can demonstrate simply, we can never 
see our way. But this light, when it hath made reason sub- 
mit itself, clears the eye of reason ; it never puts it out. In 
which sense, it may be, is that of 'Optatus, " That the very 
catholic church itself is reasonable, as well as diffused every 
where." By which k reason enlightened (which is stronger 

fStapl. ibid. 374. ut credibile, qui demonstrationem non 

' Cont. Fund. c. 4. capit- 

h Thorn, p. i. q. 2. A. 2. ad i. Nihil i Rationabilis et ubique diffnsa. lib. 

prohibet illud, qnod secundum se demon- iii. 

strabile est, et scibile, ab aliquo accipi k Ut ipsa fide valentiores facti, quod 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

than reason) the church in all ages hath been able either to Sect. 33. 
convert, or convince, or at least 1 stop the mouths of philo- 
sophers, and the great men of reason, in the very point of 
faith where it is at highest. To the present occasion then. 
The first, immediate, fundamental points of faith, without 
which there is no salvation, as they cannot be proved by 
reason, so neither need they be determined by any council, 
nor ever were they attempted, they are so plain set down in 
the scripture. If about the sense and true meaning of these, 
or necessary deduction out of these prime articles of faith, ge- 
neral councils determine any thing, as they have done in Nice 
and the rest, there is no inconvenience, that one and the 
same canon of the council should be believed, as it reflects 
upon the articles and grounds indemonstrable ; and m yet 
known to the learned by the means and proof by which that 
deduction is vouched and made good. And again ; the con- 
clusion of a council, suppose that in Nice, about the consub- 
stantiality of Christ with the Father, in itself considered, is 
indemonstrable by reason ; there I believe and assent in faith : 
but the same conclusion, n if you give me the ground of scripture 
and the Creed, (and somewhat must be supposed in all, whether 
faith or knowledge,) is demonstrable by natural reason against 
any Arian in the world : and if it be demonstrable, I may 
know it, and have an habit of it. And what inconvenience in 
this ? for the weaker sort of Christians, which cannot de- 
duce when they have the principle granted, they are to rest 
upon the definition only, and their assent is mere faith : yea, 
and the learned too, where there is not a demonstration evi- 
dent to them, assent by faith only, and not by knowledge. 
And what inconvenience in this ? Nay, the necessity of nature 
is such, that these principles once given, the understanding of 
man cannot rest, but it must be thus. And the apostle 
would never have required a man to be able to give a reason 

credimus intelligere mereamur, non 2. 233. q. i. A. 5. C. Id quod est sci- 

jam homiriibus sed Deo intrinsecus turn ab uno homine etiarn in statu viie, 

mentem nostram firmante et illumi- est ab alio creditum, qui hoc demori- 

nante. S. August- cont. Epist. Funda- strare non novit. 

ment. cap. 14. n Concilium Nicaenum deduxit con- 

1 Omnia genera ingeniorum subdita clusionem ex scripturis. Bellarm. de 

scripturae. S. August, cont. Faust, lib. Concil. lib. ii. c. 12. . Sic etiani. 

xxii. cap. 96. o i Pet. iii. 15. 

m Almain. 3. D. 24. q. i. et Thorn. 

P 2 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. and an account of the hope that is in him, if he might not be 
able to know his account, or have lawful interest to give it 
when he knew it, without prejudicing his faith by his know- 
ledge. And suppose exact knowledge and mere belief cannot 
stand together in the same person, in regard of the same 
thing, by the same means, yet that doth not make void this 
truth. For where is that exact knowledge, or in whom, that 
must not merely in points of faith believe the article or 
ground upon which they rest? but when that is once be- 
lieved, it can demonstrate many things from it. And defini- 
tions of councils are not principia Jidei, principles of faith, but 
deductions from them. 

Consid 7. I- And now, because you ask, " Wherein are we nearer 
to unity by a council, if a council may err?" besides the 
answer given, I promised to consider which opinion was most 
agreeable with the church, which most able to preserve or 
reduce Christian peace ; the Roman, that a council cannot 
err, or the protestants 1 , that it can. And this I propose 
not as a rule, but leave the Christian world to consider of it, 
as I do. 

II. First then I consider, whether in those places of 
scripture before mentioned, or any other, there be promised 
to the present church an absolute infallibility ; or whether 
such an infallibility will not serve the turn, as PStapleton, 
after much wriggling, is forced to acknowledge ; " One not 
every way exact : because it is enough if the church do 
diligently insist upon that which was once received ; and 
there is not need of so great certainty to open and explicate 
that which lies hid in the seed of faith sown, and deduce 
from it, as to seek out and teach that which was altogether 
unknown." And if this be so, then sure the church of the 
apostles required guidance by a greater degree of infallibility 
than the present church ; which yet. if it follow the scrip- 
ture, is infallible enough, though it hath not the same degree 
of certainty which the apostles had and the scripture hath. 
Nor can I tell what to make of Bellarmine, who in a whole 
chapter disputes five prerogatives in certainty of truth qthat 

P Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. Notab. 3. q De Concil. lib. ii. c. 12. . ult. 
Exacta et omnimoda infallibilitate non Cum utraque sint infallibilis veritatis, 
indiget, sed satis est semel acceptis, &c aeqtie certa dici possunt. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 213 

the scripture hath above a council ; and at last concludes, Sect. 33. 
" That they may be said to be equally certain in infallible 

III. The next thing I consider is, Suppose this not exact, 
but congruous infallibility in the church ; is it not residing 
according to power and right of authority in the whole 
church, (always understanding the church in this place pro 
communitate prcelatorum, for church governors which have 
votes in councils,) and in a general council, only by power 
deputed r with mandate to determine 2 The places of scrip- 
ture with expositions of the Fathers upon them, make me 
apt to believe this. " St. Peter," saith s St. Augustine, u did 
not receive the keys of the church, but as sustaining the 
person of the church." Now for this particular, suppose the 
key of doctrine be to let in truth and shut out error, and 
suppose the key rightly used infallible in this ; yet this in- 
fallibility is primely in the church docent, in whose person 
(not strictly in his own) St. Peter received the keys. But 
here Stapleton lays across my way again, and would thrust 
me out of this consideration. He l grants that St. Peter 
received these keys indeed, and in the person of the church ; 
but (saith he) that was because he was primate of the church : 
and therefore the church received the keys finally, but St. 
Peter formally ; that is (if I mistake him not) St. Peter for 
himself and his successors received the keys in his own right ; 
but to this end, to benefit the church of which he was made 
pastor. But I keep in my consideration still ; for the church 
here is taken pro communitate prcelatorum, for all the pre- 
lates, that is, for the church as it is docent and regent, as 
it teaches and governs : for so only it relates to a general 
council ; and so u St. Augustine and Stapleton himself under- 
stand it in the places before alleged. Now in this sense 
St. Peter received the keys formally for himself and his suc- 

r Quod si ecclesiae universitati non bat ecclesiae, ideoque etsi finaliter eccle- 

est data ulla authoritas ; ergo nee con- sia accepit, tamen formaliter Petrus 

cilio general! quatenus ecclesiam uni- accepit. Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 5. 
versalem repraesentat. Bellarm. de Con- u Ad omnes dicitur, Pasce oves, &c. 

cil. lib. ii. c. 16. . Ex his habemus. S. August, de Agon. Christ, c. 30. 

s Petrus personam ecclesiae catholicae Which cannot be spoken or meant of 

sustinet, et huic datte sum claves, quum the laity. Et Bilson. Perpet. Govern. 

Petro datae. De Agon. Christ, c. 30. c. 8. fine. 

t Sed propter primatum quern gere- 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. cessors at Rome, but not for them only ; but as he received 
them in the person of the whole church docent, so he re- 
ceived them also in their right as well as his own, and for 
them all. And in this sense St. Peter received the keys in 
the person of the church (by Stapleton's good leave) both 
finally and formally. For I would have it considered also, 
whether it be ever read in any classic author, that to receive 
a thing in the person of another, or sustaining the person of 
another, is only meant, finally to receive it ; that is, to his 
good, and not in his right. I should think, he that receives 
any thing in the person of another, receives it indeed to his 
good, and to his use, but in his right too ; and that the 
formal right is not in the receiver only, but in him or them 
also whose person he sustains while he receives it. I will 
take one of x Stapleton's own instances. A consul or prime 
senator in an aristocratical government (such as the churches 
is ministerially under Christ) receives a privilege from the 
senate ; and he receives it as primarily and as formally for 
them as for himself, and in the senate's right as well as his 
own, he being but a chief part, and they the whole. And 
this is St. Peter's case in relation to the whole church docent 
and regent, saving that his place and power was perpetual, 
and not annual, as the consul's was. This stumblingblock 
then is nothing ; and, in my consideration, it stands still, 
that the church, in this notion, by the hands of St. Peter, 
received the keys, and all power signified by them; and 
transmitted them to their successors, who, by the assistance 
of God's Spirit, may be able to use them, but still in and by 
the same hands ; and perhaps, to open and shut in some 
things infallibly, when the pope and a general council too 
(forgetting both her and her rule, the scripture) are to seek 
how to turn these keys in their wards. 

IV. The third particular I consider is, Suppose in the 
whole catholic church militant an absolute infallibility in the 
prime foundations of faith, absolutely necessary to salvation ; 
and that this power of not erring so is not y communicable 

x Stapl. Relect. Cont. 3. q. i. A. i. concurrente universal! totius ecclesiae 

a ^ 2 - consensu, implicite, vel explicite, vere, 

y Non omnia ilia quae tradit ecclesia vel interpretative. Gerson. Tract, de 

sub definitione judicial! (i. e. in con- Declaration Veritatum quae credendae 

cilio) sunt de necessitate salutis ere- sunt, &c. . 4. par. i. pag. 414. 
dendu, sed ilia duntaxat quae sic tradit 

Fisher the Jesuit. 215 

to a general council which represents it, but that the council Sect. 33. 
is subject to error : this supposition doth not only preserve 
that which you desire in the church, an infallibility, but it 
meets 2 with all inconveniences, which usually have done, and 
daily do perplex the church. And here is still a remedy for 
all things ; for if private respects, if a bandies in a faction, if 
power and favour of some parties, if weakness of them which 
have the managing, if any unfit mixture of state councils, if 
any departure from the rule of the word of God, if any thing 
else sway and wrench the council ; the whole b church upon 
evidence found in express scripture, or demonstration of this 
miscarriage, hath power to represent herself in another body 
or council, and to take order for what was amiss either prac- 
tised or concluded. So here is a means, without any infring- 
ing any lawful authority of the church, to preserve or reduce 
unity ; and yet grant, as I did, and as the c church of England 
doth, " That a general council may err." And this course 
the church heretofore took ; for she did call and represent 
herself in a new council, and define against the heretical con- 
clusions of the former ; as in the case at Ariminum and the 
second of Ephesus is evident, and in other councils named 
by d Bellarmine. Now the church is never more cunningly 
abused, than when men out of this truth, that she may err, 
infer this falsehood, that she is not to be obeyed. For it 
will never follow, she may err. therefore she may not govern. 
For he that says, Obey them which have the rule over you, and 
submit yourselves, for they watch for your souls e , commands 
obedience, and expressly ascribes rule to the church. And 
that is not only a pastoral power, to teach and direct, but 
a praetorian also, to control and censure too, where errors 
or crimes are against points fundamental or of great con- 

z Possit tamen contingere, quod quam- Ocham. Dial. pag. p. lib. iii. cap. 13. 
vis generale concilium definiret aliquid a Many of these were potent at Ari- 
contra fidem, ecclesia Dei non expo- minum and Seleucia. 
neretur periculo. Quia possit contin- b Determinationibus quae a concilio 
gere quod congregati in concilio generali vel pontifice summo Hunt super iis du- 
essent pauci et viles tarn in re, quam bitationibus, quae substantiam fidei con- 
in hominum reputatione, respectu illo- cernunt, necessario credendum est, dum 
rum qui ad illud concilium generale universalis ecclesia non reclamet. Fr. 
minime convenissent. Et tune illorum P. Mirand. Theor. 8. 
leviter error extirparetur per multitu- c Artie. XXI. 

dinem meliorum et sapientiorum et fa- d Bellarm. de Concil. lib. ii. c. 16. . 

mosiorum illis. Quibus etiam multi- Tertio concilium sine papa, 

tudo simplicium adhaereret magis, &c. c Heb. xiii. 17. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. sequence : else St. Paul would not have given the rule for 
excommunication f ; nor Christ himself have put the man that 
will not hear and obey the church into the place and con- 
dition of an ethnic and a publican, as he doths : and Solomon's 
rule is general, and he hath it twice : My son, forsake not the 
teaching or instruction of thy mother^. Now this is either 
spoken and meant of a natural mother, and her authority 
over her children is confirmed, Ecclus. iii. % ; and the fool 
will be upon him that despiseth her, Prov. xv. 20 ; or it is 
extended also to our mystical and spiritual mother the church. 
And so the Geneva 'note upon the place expresses it. And 
I cannot but incline to this opinion, because the blessings 
which accompany this obedience are so many and great, as 
that they are not like to be the fruits of obedience to a natu- 
ral mother only, as Solomon expresses them all k ; and in all 
this here is no exception of the mother's erring. For mater 
errans, an erring mother, loses neither the right nor the power 
of a mother by her error. And I marvel what son should 
shew reverence or obedience, if no mother that hath erred 
might exact it. It is true, the son is not to follow his 
mother's error, or his mother into error. But it is true too, 
it is a grievous crime in a son to cast off all obedience to 
his mother, because at some time, or in some things, she 
hath fallen into error. And howsoever this consideration 
meets with this inconvenience as well as the rest. For sup- 
pose (as I said) in the whole catholic militant church, an 
absolute infallibility in the prime foundations of faith abso- 
lutely necessary to salvation; and then, though the mother 
church, provincial or national, may err, yet if the grand- 
mother, the whole universal church, cannot in these necessary 
things, all remains safe, and all occasions of disobedience 
taken from the possibility of the church's erring are quite 
taken away. Nor is this mother less to be valued by her 
children, because in some smaller things age had filled her 
face fuller of wrinkles. For where it is said, that ^Christ 
makes to himself a church without spot or wrinkle, that is not 

f i Cor. y. 5. s Matt, xviii. 17. wherein the faithful are begotten by 

h Prov. i. 8. Vide S. August. Conf. the incorruptible seed of God's word". 

2. c. 3. and Prov. vi. 20. Annot. in Prov. i. 8. 

i Forsake not thy mother's instruc- k Prov. vi. 22. 1 Ephes. v. 27. 

tion, that is, the teaching of the church, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 217 

understood of the church militant, but of the church tri- Sect. 33. 
umphant. m And to maintain the contrary, is a branch of the 
spreading heresy of Pelagianism. Nor is the church on earth 
any freer from wrinkles in doctrine and discipline, than she 
is from spots in life and conversation. 

V. The next thing I consider is, Suppose a general coun- 
cil take itself to be infallible in all things which are of faith ; 
if it prove not so, but that an error in the faith be con- 
cluded, the same erring opinion that makes it think itself 
infallible makes the error of it seem irrevocable. And when 
truth which lay hid shall be brought to light, the church 
(who was lulled asleep by the opinion of infallibility) is left 
open to all manner of distractions, as it appears at this day. 
And that a council may err (besides all other instances, 
which are not few) appears by that error of the council of 
Constance 11 . And one instance is enough to overthrow a 
general, be it a council. Christ instituted the sacrament 
of his body and blood in both kinds. To break Christ's 
institution is a damnable error, and so confessed by P Staple- 
ton. The council is bold, and defines peremptorily, that " to 
communicate in both kinds is not necessary, with a non ob- 
stante to the institution of Christ. 11 Consider now with me, 
is this an error or not ? q Bellarmine and Stapleton, and you 
too, say it is not; because to receive under both kinds is 
not by divine right. No ! No sure ; for it was not Chrises 
precept/ but his example. Why, but I had thought Christ's 
institution of a sacrament had been more than his example 
only, and as binding for the necessaries of a sacrament, the 
matter and form, s as a precept ; therefore speak out, and 
deny it to be Christ's institution, or else grant with Staple- 
ton, " it is a damnable error to go against it." If you can 

m In id progrediuntur (Pelagiaiii) ut Art. 2. Untruth 49. 
dicant vitam justorum in hoc secnlo q De Eucharist. 4. c. 26. 
nullum omnino habere peccatum, et ex r Bellarm. ibid. . Vicesimo profe- 

his ecclesiani Christi in hac mortalitate runt. 

perfici ut sit omnino sine macula et s And now lately, in a catechism 

ruga. Quasi non sit Christi ecclesia, printed at Paris, 1637, without the 

quae in toto terrarum orbe clamat ad author's name, it is twice affirmed thus : 

Deum : Dimitte nobis debita nostra, &c. " The institution of a sacrament is 

S. August. 1. de Hseresibus, Haer. 88. of itself a command." Conference 14. 

n Sess. 13. p. 244. And again, p. 260, " Institu- 

o Matt. xxvi. i Cor. xi. 23. tion is a precept." 

P Return of Untruths upon Mr. Jewel, 

218 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. prove that Christ's institution is not as binding to us as a 
precept, (which you shall never be able,) take the precept 
with it, t Drink ye all of this ; which though you shift as you 
can, yet you can never make it other than it is, a binding 
precept. But Bellarmine hath yet one better device than 
this to save the council. He saith, it is a mere calumny, and 
that the council hath no such thing, " that the non obstante 
hath no reference to receiving under both kinds, but to the 
time of receiving it, after supper ; in which the council saith, 
the custom of the church is to be observed, non obstante, not- 
withstanding Christ's example." How foul Bellarmine is in 
this must appear by the words of the council, which are 
these : " u Though Christ instituted this venerable sacrament, 
and gave it his disciples after supper under both kinds of 
bread and wine, yet, non obstante^ notwithstanding this, it 
ought not to be consecrated after supper, nor received but 
fasting. And likewise, that though in the primitive church 
this sacrament was received by the faithful under both kinds, 
yet this custom, that it should be received by laymen only 
under the kind of bread, is to be held for a law which may 
not be refused. And to say this is an unlawful custom of 
receiving under one kind, is erroneous ; and they which per- 
sist in saying so are to be punished, and driven out as here- 
tics." Now, where is here any slander of the council ? The 
words are plain, and the non obstante must necessarily (for 
aught I can yet see) be referred to both clauses in the words 
following ; because both clauses went before it, and hath as 
much force against receiving under both kinds, as against 
receiving after supper. Yea, and the after-words of the council 
couple both together in this reference ; for it follows, "Et simi- 
liter, and so likewise, that though in the primitive church," 
See. And a man, by the definition of this council, may be 
an heretic for standing to Christ's institution in the very 

t Matt. xxvi. i Cor. xi. MejuyrftueW the council goes on : Et similiter quod 

roivvv TTJS (rwrripiov ravrrjs fvroXijs. in licet in primitiva ecclesia sacramenta 

Liturg. S. Chrys. reciperentur sub utraque specie a ndeli- 

u Licet Christus post coenam institue- bus, tamen haec consuetudo, ut a laicis 

rit, et suis discipulis administraverit sub sub specie panis tantum suscipiatur, 

utraque specie panis et vini hoc vene- habenda est pro lege, quam non licet 

rabile sacramentum, tamen hoc non ob- reprobare. Et asserere hanc esse illi- 

stante, non debet confici post coenam, citam, est erroneum : et pertinaciter 

nee recipi nisi a jejunis. Here Bellar- asserentes sunt arcendi tanquam haere- 

mine stays, and goes no further; but tici. Sess. 15. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 219 

matter of the sacrament ; and the churches law for one kind Sect. 33. 
may not be refused, but Christfs institution under both 
kinds may. And yet this council did not err ; no : take heed 
of it. 

VI. But your opinion is more unreasonable than this : for 
consider any body collective, be it more or less universal 
whensoever it assembles itself; did it ever give more power 
to the representing body of it, than binding power upon all 
particulars and itself ? And did it ever give this power other- 
wise than with this reservation in nature, that it would call 
again and reform, yea, and if need were, abrogate any law 
or ordinance upon just cause made evident, that this repre- 
senting body had failed in trust or truth? And this power 
no body collective, ecclesiastical or civil, can put out of itself, 
or give away to a parliament or council, or call it what you 
will, that represents it. Nay, in my consideration it holds 
strongest in the church ; for a council hath power to order, 
settle, and define differences arisen concerning faith. This 
power the council hath not by any immediate institution 
from Christ, but it was prudently taken up in the church 
from the x apostles 1 example, so that to hold councils to 
this end is apparent apostolical tradition written ; but the 
power which councils so held have, is from the whole catholic 
church, whose members they are ; and the church's power 
from God. And ythis power the church cannot further give 
away to a general council, than that the decrees of it shall 
bind all particulars and itself, but not bind the whole church 
from calling again; and in the after-calls, upon just cause 
to order, yea, and if need be, to abrogate former acts. I 
say, upon just cause : for if the council be lawfully called, 
and proceed orderly, and conclude according to the rule, the 
scripture, the whole church cannot but approve the council, 
and then the definitions of it are binding ; and the power 
of the church hath no wrong in this, so long as no power 
but her own may meddle, or offer to infringe any definition 

x Act. xv. In Novo Testamento q. 3. A. 4. ad 3. 

exemplum celebrationis conciliorum ab y This is more reasonable a great 

apostolis habemns, &c. Joh. de Tur- deal than that of Bellarmine, de Con- 

recremata, Sura, de Eccles. lib. iii. c. 2. cil. ii. c. 18. Pontificem non posse se 

Et firmitas conciliorum nititur exemplo subjicereseutentiaecoactivae conciliorum. 
primi concilii. Stapl. Relect. Cont. 6. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. of hers made in her representative body, a lawful general 
council. And certain it is, no power but her own may do it. 
Nor doth this open any gap to private spirits : for all deci- 
sions in such a council are binding ; and because the whole 
church can meet no other way, the council shall remain the 
supreme, external, living, temporary, ecclesiastical judge of 
all controversies. Only the whole church, and she alone, hath 
power, when scripture or demonstration is found and peace- 
ably tendered to her, to represent herself again in a new 
council, and in it to order what was amiss. 

VII. Nay, your opinion is yet more unreasonable ; for 
you do not only make the definition of a general council, but 
the sentence of the pope, infallible ; nay, more infallible than 
it : z for any general council may err with you, if the pope 
confirm it not. So belike this infallibility rests not in the 
representative body, the council, nor in the whole body, the 
church ; but in your head of the church, the pope of Rome. 
Now I may ask you, to what end such a trouble for a general 
council? or wherein are we nearer to unity, if the pope 
confirm it not ? You answer, (though not in the conference, 
yet elsewhere,) that the pope errs not, especially giving sen- 
tence in a general council. And why especially ? Doth the 
deliberation of a council help any thing to the conclusion? 
Surely not in your opinion : for you hold the conclusion pro- 
phetical, the means fallible ; and fallible deliberations cannot 
advance to a prophetic conclusion. And just as the council 
is in Stapleton's judgment for the definition and the proofs, 
so is the pope in the judgment of a Melch. Canus and them 
which followed him, prophetical in the conclusion. The coun- 
cil then is called but only in effect to hear the pope give his 
sentence in more state ; else what means this of b Stapleton, 
" The pope, by a council joined unto him, acquires no new 
power, or authority, or certainty in judging, no more than 
a head is the wiser by joining the offices of the rest of the 
members to it than it is without them?" or this of c Bel- 

z Bellarm. de Coricil. lib. ii. c. 16. b Relect. Cont. 6. q. 3. Art. 5. et 

et J 7 ibid. Quia ad compescendos importu- 

a Caiius de Locis, lib. vi. cap. 8. . nos haereticos concilii generalis definitio 

Et quidem in. Pontifices summi in illustrior est, &c. Et vulgo hominum 

conclusione errare nequeunt, rationes magis satisfacit, &c. 

autem, &c. c De Rom. Pont. iv. c. 3. . At contra, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

larmine, " That all the firmness and infallibility of a general Sect. 33. 
council is only from the pope, not partly from the pope and 
partly from the council T So belike the presence is neces- 
sary, not the assistance ; which opinion is the most ground- 
less and worthless that ever offered to take possession of the 
Christian church. And I am persuaded many learned men 
among yourselves scorn it at the very heart : and I avow it, 
I have heard some learned and judicious Roman catholics 
utterly condemn it. And well they may: for no man can 
affirm it, but he shall make himself a scorn to all the learned 
men of Christendom, whose judgments are not captivated by 
Roman power. And for my own part, I am clear of d Jacobus 
Almain^s opinion : " And a great wonder it is to me, that 
they which affirm the pope cannot err, do not affirm likewise 
that he cannot sin : and I verily believe they would be bold 
enough to affirm it, did not the daily works of the popes 
compel them to believe the contrary." For very many of 
them have led lives quite contrary to the gospel of Christ ; 
nay, such lives as no Epicurean monster storied out to the 
world hath outgone them in sensuality, or other gross im- 
piety, if their own historians be true. Take your choice of 
John 6 the Thirteenth about the year 966, or of Sylvester 
the Second, about the year 999, or John the Eighteenth, 
about the year 1003, or Benedict the Ninth, about the year 
1033, or Boniface the Eighth, about the year 1294, or Alex- 
ander the Sixth, about the year 1492 ; and yet these and 
their like must be infallible in their dictates and conclusions 
of faith. Do your own believe it ? Surely no ; for f Alphon- 
sus a Castro tells us plainly, " That he doth not believe that 
any man can be so gross and impudent a flatterer of the 
pope as to attribute this unto him, that he can neither err, 
nor mistake in expounding the holy scripture." This comes 
home ; and therefore it may well be thought it hath taken 

nam. Ex quo apparet totam firmita- e Platina et Onuphrius in Vitis eorum. 

tem conciliorum legitimorum esse a pon- f Non enim credo aliquem esse adeo 

tifice, non partim a poutifice, partim a impudentem papae assentatorem, ut ei 

concilio. tribuere hoc velit, ut nee errare, nee in 

d Et mirum est, quod adversarii non interpretatione S. S. literarum halluci- 

asserant eum impeccabilem : et credo nari possit. Alphons. a Castro, advers. 

assererent, nisi quotidiana summorum Hseres. lib. i. c. 4. And the Gloss con- 

pontiticum opera ad credendum oppo- fesses it plainly in C. 24. q. I. c. A 

situm compellerent. Almain. de Author, recta ergo. 
Eccles. c. TO. fine. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect 33. a shrewd purge: for these words are express in the edition 
at Paris, 1534 ; but they are not to be found in that at 
Colen, 1539, nor in that at Antwerp, 1556. nor in that at 
Paris, 1571. s Harding says indeed, Alphonsus left it out 
of himself in the following editions. Well ; first, Harding 
says this, but proves it not ; so I may choose whether I will 
believe him or no : secondly, be it so that he did, that cannot 
help their cause a whit ; for say he did dislike the sharpness 
of the phrase, or aught else in this speech, yet he altered not 
his judgment of the thing. For in all these later editions 
he speaks as home, if not more than in the first, and says 
expressly, " h That the pope may err, not only as a private 
person, but as pope ;" and in difficult cases he adds, that the 
pope ought to consult viros doctos, men of learning. And 
this also was the opinion of the ancient church of Christ 
concerning the pope and his infallibility. For thus Liberius, 
and he a pope himself, writes to Athanasius : " Brother 
Athanasius, if you think in the presence of God and Christ 
as I do, I pray subscribe this confession, which is thought 
to be the true faith of the holy catholic and apostolic church, 
that we may be the more certain, that you think concerning 
the faith as we do ; ' ut ego etiam persuasus sim inhcesitanter, 
that I also may be persuaded without all doubting of those 
things which you shall be pleased to command me." Now 
I would fain know, if the pope at that time were or did think 
himself infallible, how he should possibly be more certainly 
persuaded of any truth belonging to the faith by Athanasius 
his concurring in judgment with him : for nothing can make 
infallibility more certain than it is, at least, not the con- 
curring judgment of that is fallible, as St. Athanasius was. 
Beside, the pope complimented exceeding low, that would 
submit his unerring judgment to be commanded by Athana- 
sius, who, he well knew, could err. Again, in the case of 
Easter, (which made too great a noise in the church of old,) 
k very many men called for St. Ambrose his judgment in that 

S Harding his Detection of Errors i "iva Kayk ireiroi&tas & aSicutpirus irepl 

against Jewel, p. 64. &v a|to?s /ceAeuetv /j.ol. Liberius in Epist. 

h Coelestinus erravit non solum ut ad Athanas. apud Athanas. torn. i. p. 42. 

privata persona, sed ut papa, &c. Al- edit. Parisiens. 1608. et edit. Paris, 

phons. a Castro, advers. Haeres. lib. i. Latino-Gr. 1627. 

c. 4. Ibid. k Post yEgyptiorum supputationes et 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

point, even after the definition of the church of Alexandria Sect. 33. 
and the bishop of Rome ; and this I presume they would 
not have done, had they then conceived either the pope 
or his church infallible. And thus it continued down to 
Lyra's time ; for he says expressly, " ! That many popes, as 
well as other inferiors, have not only erred, but even quite 
apostatized from the faith." And yet now nothing but in- 
fallibility will serve their turns. And sometimes they have 
not only taken upon them to be infallible in cathedra, in 
their chair of decision, but also to prophesy infallibly out 
of the scripture. But prophetical scripture (such as the 
Revelation is) was too dangerous for men to meddle with 
which would be careful of their credit in not erring : for 
it fell out in the time of Innocent the Third, and Honorius 
the Third, (as m Aventine tells us,) " that the then popes 
assured the world, that destruction was at hand to Sara- 
cens, Turks, and Mahometans ; which the event shewed 
were notorious untruths." And it is remarkable which hap- 
pened anno 1179; f r then m a council held at Rome, Baron, an. 
pope Alexander the Third condemned Peter Lombard O f ll79 ' n * 13 ' 
heresy ; and he lay under that damnation for thirty and 
six years, till Innocent the Third restored him, and con- 
demned his accusers. Now Peter Lombard was then con- 
demned for something which he had written about the human 
nature of our Saviour Christ. So here was a great mystery 
of the faith in hand, something about the incarnation ; and 
the pope was in cathedra, and that in a council of three 
hundred archbishops and bishops; and in this council he 
condemned Peter Lombard, and in him his opinion about 
the incarnation; and therefore of necessity, either pope 
Alexander erred, and that in cathedra, as pope, in condemn- 
ing him, or pope Innocentius in restoring him : the truth 
is, pope Alexander had more of Alexander the Great than 
of St. Peter in him ; and being accustomed to warlike em- 

Alexandrinse ecclesiae definitionem, epi- quia multi principes et summi ponti- 

scopiquoque Roman* ecclesiae perliteras fices, et alii inferiores inventi sunt apo- 

plerique meam adhuc expectant senten- statasse a fide, &c. Lyra in S. Matth. 

tiam, quid existimem de die Paschae. xvi. 18. 

S. Ambr. lib. x. epist. 83. m Rom. pontifices ex historia, &c. 

1 Ex hoc patet quod ecclesia non quae mendacissima esse exitus probavit. 

consistit in hominibus ratione potestatis Aventin. Annal.Boiorum, lib. vii. p. 529. 

vel dignitatis ecclesiastics, vel saecularis, edit. Basil. 1580. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. ployments, he understood not that which Peter Lombard 
had written about this mystery ; and so he and his learned 
assistants condemned him unjustly. 

VIII. And whereas you profess "after, " That you hold 
nothing against your conscience, 11 I must ever wonder much 
how that can be true, since you hold this of the pope^s infal- 
libility, especially as being prophetical in the conclusion. If 
this be true, why do you not lay all your strength together, 
all of your whole society, and make this one proposition evi- 
dent ? For all controversies about matters of faith are ended, 
and without any great trouble to the Christian world, if you 
can but make this one proposition good, That the pope is an 
infallible judge. Till then, this shame will follow you infal- 
libly and eternally, that you should make the pope, a mere 
man, principium fidei, a principle or author of faith ; and 
make the mouth of him whom you call Chrises vicar sole 
judge, both of Chrisfs word, be it never so manifest, and of 
his church, be she never so learned and careful of his truth. 
And for conclusion of this point, I would fain know (since 
this had been so plain, so easy a way, either to prevent all 
divisions about the faith, or to end all controversies, did they 
arise) why this brief but most necessary proposition, " The 
bishop of Rome cannot err in his judicial determinations con- 
cerning the faith," is not to be found either in letter or sense, 
in any scripture, in any council, or in any Father of the church, 
for the full space of a thousand years and more after Christ. For 
had this proposition been true and then received in the church, 
how weak were all the primitive Fathers to prescribe so many 
rules and cautions for avoidance of heresy, as Tertullian, and 
Vincentius Lirinensis, and others do, and to endure such hard 
conflicts as they did, and with so many various heretics ; to 
see Christendom so rent and torn by some distempered coun- 
cils, as that of Ariminum, the second of Ephesus, and others; 
nay, to see the whole world almost become Arian, to the 
amazement of itself ; and yet all this time not so much as call 
in this necessary assistance of the pope, and let the world 
know, that the bishop of Rome was infallible, that so in his 
decision all differences might cease ! For either the Fathers 

n Apud A. C. p. 68. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

of the church, Greek as well as Latin, knew this proposition Sect. 33. 
to be true, " That the pope cannot err judicially in matters 
belonging to the faith," or they knew it not. If you say they 
knew it not, you charge them with a base and unworthy ig- 
norance, no ways like to overcloud such and so many learned 
men in a matter so necessary, and of such infinite use to 
Christendom. If you say they knew it and durst not deliver 
this truth, how can you charge them which durst die for 
Christ with such cowardice towards his church ? And if you 
say they knew it, and withheld it from the church, you lay a 
most unjust load upon those charitable souls, which loved 
Christ too well to imprison any truth, but likely to make or 
keep peace in his church catholic over the world. But cer- 
tainly, as no divine of worth did then dream of any such in- 
fallibility in him, so is it a mere dream, or worse, of those 
modern divines who affirm it now. And as P St. Augustine 
sometimes spake of the Donatists, and their absurd limiting 
the whole Christian church to Africa only, so may I truly 
say of the Eomanists confining all Christianity to the Roman 
doctrine governed by the pope^s infallibility : I verily per- 
suade myself that even the Jesuits themselves laugh at this. 
And yet unless they say this, which they cannot but blush 
while they say, they have nothing at all to say. But what is 
this to us ?. we envy no man. If the pope^s decision be infal- 
lible, legant, let them read it to us out of the holy scripture, 
and we will believe it. 

IX. In the mean time take this with you, that most cer- 
tain it is that the pope hath no infallibility to attend his ca- 
thedral judgment in things belonging to the faith. For first, 
besides the silence of impartial antiquity, divers <l of your own 
confess it, yea, and prove it too, by sundry instances. 

X. Secondly, there is a great question amongst the 
learned, both schoolmen and controversers, " Whether the 

o " The wild extent of the pope's in- quod erubescant si dicant, non habent 

fallibility and jurisdiction is a mistake." omnino quod dicant. Sed quid ad nos ? 

These are the words of a great Roman Nemini invidemus. Legant nobis hoc 

catholic uttered to myself: but I will de scripturis sanctis, et credimus. S. 

spare his name, because he is living; August, de Unit. Eccles. cap. 1 7. 

and I will not draw your envy upon 1 Papa non solum errore personali, 

him. sed et errore judicial! potest errare in 

P Puto quod ipsi etiam rideant, quum materia fidei. Almain. lib. de Author, 

hoc audiunt, et tamen nisi hoc dicant, Eccles. c. 10. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. pope coming to be an heretic may be deposed ;" and it is 
learnedly disputed by r Bellarmine. The opinions are dif- 
ferent. For the s canon law says expressly, " He may be 
judged and deposed by the church in case of heresy." * Joh. 
de Turrecremata is of opinion that the pope is to be de- 
posed by the church, so soon as he becomes an heretic, though 
as yet not a manifest one, because he is already deprived by 
divine right : and recites another opinion, " That the pope 
cannot be deposed, though he fall into secret or manifest he- 
resy." u Cajetan thinks that the " pope cannot be deposed 
but for a manifest heresy ; and that then he is not deposed 
ipso facto, but must be deposed by the church." v Bellarmine^s 
own opinion is, " That if the pope become a manifest heretic, 
he presently ceases to be pope and head of the church, and 
may then be judged and punished by the church." Bellar- 
mine hath disputed this very learnedly, and at large ; and I 
will not fill this discourse with another man's labours. The 
use I shall make of it runs through all these opinions, and 
through all alike. And truly the very question itself sup- 
poses that a pope may be an heretic. For if he cannot be 
an heretic, why do they question whether he can be deposed 
for being one ? And if he can be one, then whether he can 
be deposed by the church before he be manifest, or not till 
after, or neither before nor after, or which way they will, it 
comes all to one for my purpose : for I question not here his 
deposition for his heresy, but his heresy. And I hope none 
of these learned men, nor any other, dare deny but that if 
the pope can be an heretic, he can err. For every heresy is 
an error, and more. For it is an error ofttimes against the 
errant's knowledge, but ever with the pertinacy of his will. 
Therefore out of all even your own grounds, if the pope can 
be an heretic, he can err grossly, he can err wilfully. And 
he that can so err cannot be infallible in his judgment, pri- 
vate or public : for if he can be an heretic, he can, and doubt - 

r De Rom. Pont. lib. ii. c. 30. facto, vel jure divino vel humano, de- 

s Si sit a fide devius. Dist. 40. Can. positus, sed deponendus. Cajet. Tract. 

Si papa. de Author. Papae et Concilii, c. 20. 
t Jure divino papatu privatus est, v Papa haereticiis manifestus per se 

&c. Jo. de Turrecr. 1. iv. par. ii. c. 20. desinit esse papa et caput, &c. ; et turn 

et Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. c. potest ab ecclesia judicari, et puniri. 

30- Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. c. 30. 

Papa factns haereticus non est ipso . Est ergo quinta. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 227 

less will, judge for his heresy, if the church let him alone. Sect. 33. 
And you yourselves maintain his deposition lawful to prevent 
this. I verily believe w Alb. Pighius foresaw this blow, and 
therefore he is of opinion " that the pope cannot become an 
heretic at all."" And though x Bellarmine favour him so far 
as to say his opinion is probable, yet he is so honest as to 
add, that " the common opinion of divines is against him." 
Nay, though yhe labour hard to excuse pope Honorius the 
First from the heresy of the Monothelites, and says that 
pope Adrian was deceived who thought him one; yet z he 
confesses, " That pope Adrian the Second, with the council 
then held at Rome, and the eighth general synod, did think 
that the pope might be judged in the cause of. heresy ; and 
that the condition of the church were most miserable, if it 
should be constrained to acknowledge a wolf manifestly raging 
for her shepherd." And here again I have a question to ask ; 
Whether you believe the eighth general council or not? If 
you believe it, then you see the pope can err, and so he not 
infallible. If you believe it not, then, in your judgment, that 
general council errs, and so that not infallible. 

XI. Thirdly, it is altogether vain and to no use that the 
pope should be infallible, and that according to your own 
principles. Now God and nature make nothing in vain ; there- 
fore either the pope is not infallible, or at least, God never 
made him so. That the infallibility of the pope (had he any 
in him) is altogether vain and useless, is manifest. For if it 
be of any use. it is for the settling of truth and peace in the 
church in all times of her distraction. But neither the church 
nor any member of it can make any use of the pope's infal- 
libility that way : therefore it is of no use or benefit at all. 
And this also is as manifest as the rest. For before the 
church or any particular man can make any use of this infal- 
libility to settle him and his conscience, he must either know 
or believe that the pope is infallible : but a man can neither 

w Pighius, Ecclesiasticse Hierarchies tota synodus octava generalis senserit, 

lib. iv. cap. 8. in causa haeresis posse Rom. pont. judi- 

* Communis opinio est in contra- can. Adde quod esset miserrima con- 
Hum. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. ditio ecclesiae, si lupum manifesto gras- 
c. 30. . i. santem pro pastore agnoscere cogeretur. 

y De Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. n. Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. ii. c. 30. 

z Tameri non possumus negare, quin .5. 
Adrianus cum Romano concilio, imo et 

Q 2 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. know nor believe it. And first, for belief : for if the church 
or any Christian man can believe it, he must believe it either 
by divine or by human faith. Divine faith cannot be had of 
it : for (as is before proved) it hath no ground in the written 
word of God ; nay, (to follow you closer,) it was never deli- 
vered by any tradition of the catholic church. And for hu- 
man faith, no rational man can possibly believe (having no 
word of God to overrule his understanding) that he which is 
fallible in the means, as a yourselves confess the pope is, can 
possibly be infallible in the conclusion ; and were it so, that 
a rational man could have human faith of this infallibility ; 
yet that neither is nor ever can be sufficient to make the pope 
infallible, no more than my strong belief of another man's 
honesty can make him an honest man if he be not so. Now, 
secondly, for knowledge; and that is altogether impossible 
too, that either the church or any member of the church should 
ever know that the pope is infallible : and this I shall make 
evident also out of your own principles. For your b council of 
Florence had told us, that three things are necessary to 
every sacrament ; the matter, the form of the sacrament, and 
the intention of the priest which administers it, that he in- 
tends to do as the church doth. Your c council of Trent con- 
firms it for the intention of the priest. Upon this ground 
(be it rock or sand, it is all one ; for you make it rock and 
build upon it) I shall raise this battery against the pope's in- 
fallibility. First, the pope, if he have any infallibility at all, 
he hath it as he is bishop of Rome and St. Peter's successor. 
d This is granted. Secondly, the pope cannot be bishop of 
Borne, but he must be in holy orders first ; and if any man 
be chosen that is not so, the election is void ipso facto, propter 
err or em personce, for the error of the person. e This also is 
granted. Thirdly, he that is to be made pope can never be 
in holy orders but by receiving them from one that hath 
power to ordain : this is notoriously known ; so is it also, 

a Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. Notab. 4. e Constantinus ex laico papa circa 

b Orrmia sacramenta tribus perficiun- an. 767. ejectus papatu. Et Steph. III. 

tur, &c. Decret. Eugen. 4. in Concil. qui successit, habito concilio statuit, ne 

Florent. quis, nisi per gradus ecclesiasticos ascen- 

c Concil. Trid. Sess. 7 . Can. i . dens pontificatum, occupare auderet sub 

d Bellarm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. poena anathematis. Decret. Dist. 79. 

3. . Alterum privilegium est. c. Nullus. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 

that with you order is a sacrament properly so called : and if Sect. 33. 
so, then the pope, when he did receive the order of deacon or 
priesthood at the hands of the bishop, did also receive a sa- 
crament. Upon these grounds I raise my argument, thus : 
Neither the church nor any member of the church can know 
that this pope which now sits, or any other that hath been 
or shall be, is infallible. For he is not infallible unless he be 
pope, and he is not pope unless he be in holy orders ; and he 
cannot be so unless he have received those holy orders, and 
that from one that had power to ordain ; and those holy 
orders, in your doctrine, are a sacrament ; and a sacrament is 
not perfectly given, if he that administers it have not inten- 
tionem faciendi quod facit ecclesia, an intention to do that 
which the church doth by sacraments. Now who can possibly 
tell that the bishop which gave the pope orders was, first, a 
man qualified to give them; and, secondly, so devoutly set 
upon his work, that he had at the instant of giving them an 
intention and purpose to do therein as the church doth? 
Surely none but the bishop himself. And his testimony of 
himself and his own act, such especially as, if faulty, he would 
be loath to confess, can neither give knowledge nor belief suf- 
ficient, that the pope, according to this canon, is in holy 
orders. So upon the whole matter, let the Romanists take 
which they will, (I give them free choice,) either this ca- 
non of the council of Trent is false divinity, and there is no 
such intention necessary to the essence and being of a sacra- 
ment ; or if it be true, it is impossible for any man to know, 
and for any advised man to believe, that the pope is infallible 
in his judicial sentences in things belonging to the faith. And 
so here again a general council, at least such an one as that of 
Trent is, can err, or the pope is not infallible. 

XII. But this is an argument ad hominem, good against 
your party only which maintain this council. But the plain 
truth is, both are errors. For neither is the bishop of Rome 
infallible in his judicials about the faith, nor is this intention 
of either bishop or priest of absolute necessity to the essence 
of a sacrament, so as to make void the gracious institution 
of Christ, in case by any tentation the priest 1 s thoughts should 
wander from his work at the instant of using the essentials 
of a sacrament, or have in him an actual intention to scorn 

230 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. the church. And you may remember, if you please, that a 
Neapolitan f bishop then present at Trent disputed this case 
very learnedly, and made it most evident, that this opinion 
cannot be defended, but that it must open a way for any un- 
worthy priest to make infinite nullities in administration of 
the sacraments. And his arguments were of such strength, 
Sut cceteros theologos dederint in stuporem, as amazed the other 
divines which were present. And concluded, " That no in- 
ternal intention was required in the minister of a sacrament, 
but that intention which did appear opere externo, in the work 
itself performed by him ; and that if he had unworthily any 
wandering thoughts, nay more, any contrary intention within 
him, yet it neither did nor could hinder the blessed effect of 
any sacrament." And most certain it is, if this be not true, 
besides all other inconveniences, which are many, no man can 
secure himself, upon any doubt or trouble in his conscience, 
that he hath truly and really been made partaker of any sa- 
crament whatsoever, no, not of baptism ; and so by conse- 
quence be left in doubt whether he be a Christian or no, even 
after he is baptized. Whereas it is most impossible that Christ 
should so order his sacraments, and so leave them to his 
church, as that poor believers in his name, by any unworthi- 
ness of any of his priests, should not be able to know whether 
they have received his sacraments or not, even while they 
have received them. And yet for all this, such great lovers 
of truth and such careful pastors over the flock of Christ 
were these Trent Fathers, that they regarded none of this, 
but went on in the usual track, and made their decree for the 
internal intention and purpose of the priest, and that the sa- 
crament was invalid without it. 

XIII. Nay, one argument more there is, and from your own 
grounds too, that makes it more than manifest that the pope 
can err, not personally only, but judicially also ; and so teach 
false doctrine to the church, which h Bellarmine tells us "no 
pope hath done or can do." And a maxim it is with you, 
" That a general council can err, if it be not confirmed by the 

f Minorensis episcopus fuit. clesiam docet, in his quae ad lidem per- 

g Hist. Trident, lib. ii. p. 276, 277. tinent nullo casu errare potest. Bel- 

Leidae, an. 1622. larm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 3. . i. 
h Summus pontifex quum totam ec- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 231 

pope ; > but if it be confirmed, then it cannot err." Where, Sect. 33. 
first, this is very improper language : for I hope no council is 
confirmed till it be finished ; and when it is finished, even be- 
fore the pope's confirmation be put to it, either it hath erred 
or not erred. If it have erred, the pope ought not to confirm 
it ; and if he do, it is a void act : for no power can make 
falsehood truth. If it have not erred, then it was true be- 
fore the pope confirmed it. So his confirmation adds nothing 
but his own assent : therefore his confirmation of a general 
council (as you will needs call it) is at the most signum,non causa, 
a sign, and that such as may fail, but no cause of the coun- 
cil's not erring. But then secondly, if a general council con- 
firmed (as you would have it) by the pope have erred, and so 
can err, then certainly the pope can err judicially. For he 
never gives a more solemn sentence for truth than when he 
decrees any thing in a general council. Therefore, if he have 
erred and can err there, then certainly he can err in his de- 
finitive sentence about the faith, and is not infallible. Now 
that he hath erred, and therefore can err in a general council 
confirmed, in which he takes upon him to teach all Christen- 
dom, is most clear and evident. For the pope teaches in and 
by the k council of Lateran confirmed by Innocent the Third, 
Christ is present in the sacrament by way of transubstantia- 
tion ; and in and by the ! council of Constance, the admi- 
nistration of the blessed sacrament to the laity in one kind, 
notwithstanding Christ's institution of it in both kinds for all ; 
and in and by the m council of Trent, invocation of saints, 
and adoration of images, to the great scandal of Christianity, 
and as great hazard of the weak. Now that these particu- 
lars among many are errors in divinity, and about the faith, 
is manifest both by scripture and the judgment of the primitive 
church. For transubstantiation first, that was never heard of 
in the primitive church, nor till the council of Lateran ; nor 
can it be proved out of scripture ; and taken properly cannot 
stand with the grounds of Christian religion. As for commu- 
nion in one kind, Christ's institution is clear against that. 

i Concilia generalia a pontifice con- 1 Concil. Const. Sess. 13. 
firmata errare non possunt. Bellarm. in Concil. Trid. Sess. 25. Decret. de 

de Concil. lib. ii. c. i. . r. Invocatione. 

k Concil. Later. Can. i. 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. And not only the primitive church, but the whole church of 
Christ kept it so, till within less than four hundred years. For 
n Aquinas confesses it was so in use even to his time, and he 
was both born and dead during the reign of Henry the Third 
of England. Nay, it stands yet as a monument in the very 
Missal, against the present practice of the church of Rome, 
that then it was usually given and received in both kinds. 
And for invocation of saints, though some of the ancient Fa- 
thers have some rhetorical flourishes about it, for the stirring 
up of devotion, (as they thought,) yet the church then ad- 
mitted not of the innovation of them, but only of the com- 
memoration of the martyrs, as appears clearly in F St. Au- 
gustine. And when the church prayed to God for any thing, 
she desired to be heard for the mercies and the merits of Christ, 
not for the merits of any saints whatsoever. For I much 
doubt this were to make the saints more than mediators of 
intercession, which is all that q you acknowledge you allow the 
saints. For I pray, is not by the merits more than by the 
intercession ? Did not Christ redeem us by his merits ? and 
if God must hear our prayers for the merits of the saints, 
how much fall they short of sharers in the r mediation of re- 
demption? You may think of this. For such prayers as 
these the church of Borne makes at this day, and they stand 
(not without great scandal to Christ and Christianity) used, 
and authorized to be used in the Missal. For instance : 
upon the feast s of St. Nicholas you pray, " that God, by the 
merits and prayers of St. Nicholas, would deliver you from 
the fire of hell." And upon the octaves of St. Peter and St. 
Paul, l you desire God " that you may obtain the glory of 

n Provide in quibusdam ecclesiis ob- q Bellarm. de Sanctor. Beatitud. lib. 

servatur, ut populo sanguis non detur. i. c. 20. . Ad primum ergo locum, &c. 

Thorn, p. 3. q. 80. A. I2.C. So it was r Sunt redemptores riostri aliquo 

but in some churches in his time Ne- modo et secundum aliquid. Bellarm. de 

gare non possumus etiam in ecclesia Indulgent, lib. i. c. 4 : et sanctos ap- 

Latina fuisse usum utriusque speciei, pellat numina, de Imagin. Sanctorum, 

et usque ad tempora S. Thomae durasse. lib. ii. c. 20. . 3. Now if this word 

Vasq. in 3. Disput. 216. c. 3. n. 38. (numen*) signify any thing else besides 

o Refecti cibo potuque ccelesti, Deus God himself, or the power of God, or 

noster, te supplices exoramus, &c. In the oracle of God, let Bellarmine shew 

proprio Missarum de Sanctis, Jan. 15. it, or A. C. for him. 

Orat. post Communionem. Et Jan. 21. s Ut ejus meritis et precibus a ge- 

P Ad quod sacrificium suo loco et hennae incendiis liberemur. In pro- 

ordine homines Dei nominantur, non prio Missarum de Sanctis, Decernb. 6. 

tamen a sacerdote, qui sacrificat, invo- t Ut amborum meritis a i ternitatis 

cantur. S. August. Civ. Dei, lib. xxii. gloriam consequamur. Ibid. Julii 6. 
c. 10. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 233 

eternity by their merits." And on the u feast of St. Bonaven- Sect. 33. 
ture, you pray, " that God would absolve you from all your 
sins by the interceding merits of Bonaven ture." And for 
adoration of images, the x ancient church knew it not. And 
the modern church of Eome is too like to paganism in the 
practice of it, and driven to scarce intelligible stibtilties in 
her servants 1 writings that defend it ; and this without any 
care had of millions of souls, unable to understand her sub- 
tilties or shun her practice. Did I say the modern church of 
Eome is grown too like paganism in this point? and may 
this speech seem too hard ? Well, if it do, I will give a double 
account of it. The one is ; It is no harsher expression than 
they of Eome use of the protestants, and in cases in which 
there is no show or resemblance : for yBecanus tells us, " It 
is no more lawful to receive the sacrament as the Calvinists re- 
ceive it, than to worship idols with the ethnics." And Gregory 
de Valentia enlarges it to more points than one, but with no 
more truth. " z The sectaries of our times," saith he, " seem to 
err culpably in more things than the Gentiles." This is easily 
said, but here is no proof : nor shall I hold it a sufficient war- 
rant for me to sour my language, because these men have 
dipped their pens in gall. The other account, therefore, which 
I shall give of this speech, shall come vouched both by au- 
thority and reason. And first for authority, I could set Lu- 
dovicus Vives against Becanus, if I would, who says expressly, 
" That the making of feasts at the oratories of the martyrs'*' 
(which a St. Augustine tells us the best Christians practised 
not) " are a kind of b parentalia, funeral feasts, too much re- 
sembling the superstition of the Gentiles." Nay, Vives need 
not say " resembling that superstition," since c Tertullian tells 

" Ejus intercedentibus meritis ab z Contingit aliquando haereticos circa 

omnibus nos absolve peccatis. Ibid, plura errare quam Gentiles, ut Mani- 

Julii 14. cha?os, inquit Thomas. Quod nos pos- 

x In Optatus his time the Christians sumus vere dicere de nostri temporis 

were much troubled upon but a false sectariis, qui culpabiliter in pluribus vi- 

report, that an image was to be placed dentur errare. Valentia in 2. aae. Disp. 

upon the altar. What would they have i. q. TO. punct. 3. 

done if adoration had been com- a Quod quidem a Christianis melio- 

manded ? &c. Et recte dictum erat, ribns non fit. S. August, de Civ. Dei, 

si talem famam similis veritas sequere- lib. viii. c. 27. 

tur. Optat. lib. iii. ad finem. b Ilia quasi parentalia superstitioni 

y Sicut non licet cum ethnicis idola Gentilium simillima. Lud. Vives Ibid, 

colere. Becan. L. de Fide Haeret. servan- c Quod ergo mortuis litabatur, utique 

da, c. 8. parentationi deputabatur, quae species 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33. us plainly, " that idolatry itself is but a kind of parentation." 
And Vives, dying in the communion of the church of Rome, is 
a better testimony against you, than Becanus or Valentia, 
being bitter enemies to our communion, can be against us. 
But I will come nearer home to you, and prove it by more of 
your own. For d Cassander, who lived and died in your com- 
munion, says it expressly, " That in this present case of the 
adoration of images, you came full home to the superstition 
of the heathen." And secondly, for reason I have (I think) 
too much to give, that the modern church of Rome is grown 
too like to paganism in this point. For the e council of Trent 
itself confesses, That to believe there is a"ny divinity in images, 
is to do as the Gentiles did by their idols. And though in 
some words after, the Fathers of that council seem very reli- 
giously careful that all f occasion of dangerous error be pre- 
vented, yet the doctrine itself is so full of danger, that it 
works strongly both upon the learned and unlearned, to the 
scandal of religion and the perverting of truth. For the 
unlearned first, how it works upon them by whole countries 
together, you may see by what happened in Asturias, Canta- 
bria, Galicia, no small parts of Spain. For there the people 
(so she tells me that was an eyewitness, and that since the 
council of Trent) " are so addicted to their worm-eaten and 
deformed images, that when the bishops commanded new 
and handsomer images to be set up in their rooms, the poor 
people cried for their old, would not look up to their new, as 
if they did not represent the same thing." And though he 
say this 'is by little and little amended, yet I believe there is 
very little amendment. And it works upon the learned too 
more than it should. For it wrought so far upon Lamas 

proinde idololatriae est, quoniam et ido- rejecting the opinion of Thomas, and 

lolatria parentationis est species. Tert. other superstitions concerning images. 

lib. de Spectaculis, c. 12. Ibid. 

d Manifestius est, quam Tit multis e Non quod credatur inesse aliqua in 

verbis explicari debeat, imaginum et iis diviriitas, et veluti olim fiebat a gen- 

simulachrorum cultum nimium inva- tibus. Cone. Trid. Sess. 25. Decret. 

luisse, et affectioni sen potius supersti- de Invocat. 

tioni populi plus satis indultum esse, ita, f Et rudibus periculosi erroris occa- 

ut ad summam adorationem, quse vel a sionem, &c. Ibid. 

paganis, suis simulachris exhiberi con- g Et adeo gens affecta est tmncis 

suevit, &c. Cassand. Consult. Art. 21. corrosis et deformibus imaginibus, ut, 

c. de Imaginibus Where he names me teste, quoties episcopi decentiores 

divers of your own, as namely, Du- ponere jubent, veteres suas petant plo- 

rautus Miniatensis episcopus, John Bil- rantes, &c. Hieron. Lamas Summa, 

let, Gerson, Durand, Plolkot, and Biel, p. 3. c. 3. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 235 

himself, who bemoaned the former passage, as that he deli- Sect. 33. 
vers this doctrine : " h That the images of Christ, the blessed 
Virgin, and the saints, are not to be worshipped, as if there 
were any divinity in the images, as they are material things 
made by art, but only as they represent Christ and the saints; 
for else it were idolatry." So then belike, according to the 
divinity of this casuist, a man may worship images, and ask 
of them, and put his trust in them, as they represent Christ 
and the saints. For so there is divinity in them, though not 
as things, yet as representers. And what, I pray, did or could 
any pagan" priest say more than this ? for the proposition 
resolved is this : " The images of Christ and the saints, as 
they represent their exemplars, have deity or divinity in 
them."" And now I pray A. C. do you be judge, whether this 
proposition do not teach idolatry, and whether the modern 
church of Rome be not grown too like to paganism in this 
point. For my own part I heartily wish it were not, and 
that men of learning would not strain their wits to spoil the 
truth and rent the peace of the church of Christ, by such 
dangerous, such superstitious vanities ; for better they are 
not, but they may be worse : nay, these and their like have 
given so great a scandal among us, to some ignorant, though, 
I presume, well meaning men, that they are afraid to testify 
their duty to God, even in his own house, by any outward ges- 
ture at all. Insomuch that those very ceremonies, which by 
the judgment of godly and learned men have now long conti- 
nued in the practice of this church, suffer hard measure for 
the Romish superstition's sake. But I will conclude this 
point with the saying of B. Rhenanus : " > Who could endure 
the people," says he, " rushing. into the church like swine into a 
sty ? Doubtless ceremonies do not hurt the people, but profit 
them, so there be a mean kept, and the by be not put for the 
main, that is, so we place not the principal part of our piety 
in them." 

11 Imagines Christi et S. matris ejus i Quis ferat populum in templum 

et sanctorum non sunt venerandae, ac irrueritem, ceu in haram sues ? Certe 

si in ipsis imaginibus esset divinitas, non obsunt populo ceremoniae, sed pro- 

secmidum quod sunt materia arte effi- sunt, si modus in eis servetur, et cavea- 

giata, et non secundum quod repraesen- mus ne iraptpya T&V epywv loco habean- 

tant Christum, et sanctos, &c. Sicenim tur, hoc est, ne praecipuam pietatem in 

adorare, vel petere aliquid ab iis, esset illis collocemus. Rhen. annot. in Ter- 

idololatria. Lam. ibid. tul. de Cor. Mil. 

236 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 33-35. The conference grows to an end, and I must meet it again 
ere we part. For you say, 

.df . After this (we all rising) the lady asked the 23, whether 
she might be saved in the Roman faith ? He answered, 
she might. 

Sect. 34. 23, What ! not one k answer perfectly related ! My answer 
to this was general, for the ignorant that could not discern 
the errors of that church, so they held the foundation, and 
conformed themselves to a religious life. But why do you 
not speak out what I added in this particular, " That it 
must needs go harder with the lady, even in point of salva- 
tion, because she had been brought to understand very much, 
for one of her condition, in these controverted causes of reli- 
gion; and a person that comes to know much had need 
carefully bethink himself, that he oppose not known truth 
against the church that made him a Christian ?" for salvation 
may be in the church of Rome, and yet they not find it that 
A. C. p. 64. make surest of it. Here A. C. is as confident as the Jesuit 
himself, " that I said expressly, that the lady might be 
saved in the Roman faith." Truly, it is too long since now 
for me to speak any more than I have already upon my 
memory; but this I am sure of, that whatsoever I said of 
her, were it never so particular, yet was it under the con- 
ditions before expressed. 

;fp, I bade her mark that. 

Sect. 35. 23, I. This answer (I am sure) troubles not you. But 
it seems you would fain have it lay a load of envy upon me, 
that you profess you bade the lady so carefully mark that. 
Well, you bade her mark that ; for what ? for some great 
matter, or for some new ? Not for some new sure : for the 
protestants have ever been ready for truth and in charity to 
grant as much as might be ; and therefore from the begin- 
ning many ! learned men granted this. So that you needed 

k Cave ne dum vis alium notare citante Bellarmino, de Notis Eccles. lib. 

culpae, ipse noteris calumniae. S. Hier. iv. c. 16. . penult. Et Field. Appen- 

advers. Pelagianos, lib. iii. dice, par. 3. c. 2. Et Jos. Hall bishop 

1 Nos fatemur sub papatu plun'mum of Exeter, lib. Of the Old Religion, c. i. 

esse boni, imo omne bonum Chris- " Many holding Christ the foundation 

tianum, atque etiam illinc ad nos deve- aright, and groaning under the burden 

nisse, &c. Luther contra Anabaptist, of popish trash, &c. by a general re- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


not have put such a serious " mark that" upon my speech, Sect. 35. 
as if none before had, or none but I would speak it. And if 
your " mark that" were not for some new matter, was it for 
some great ? Yes sure, it was ; for what greater than sal- 
vation? But then, I pray, mark this too, that " might be 
saved" grants but a m possibility, no sure or safe way to sal- 
vation. The possibility I think cannot be denied, the igno- 
rant's especially, because they hold the foundation, and cannot 
survey the building ; and the foundation can deceive no man 
that rests upon it : but a secure way they cannot go that hold 
with such corruptions when they know them. Now whether 
it be wisdom, in such a point as salvation is, to forsake a 
church in the which the ground of salvation is firm, to follow 
a church in which it is but possible one may be saved, but 
very probable he may do worse, if he look not well to the 
foundation, judge ye. I am sure n St. Augustine thought 
it was not, and judged it a great sin, in point of salvation, 

pentance, and assured faith in their 
Saviour, did find favour with the Lord." 
D. Geo. Abbot, late archbishop of Can- 
terbury, Answer to Hill, ad Ration. 
I. . 30. 

" For my part I dare not deny the 
possibility of their salvation, who have 
been the chiefest instruments of ours, 
&c." Hooker, in his Discourse of Jus- 
tificat. . 1 7. " In former times a man 
might hold the general doctrine of those 
churches wherein our Fathers lived, 
and be saved ; and yet since the coun- 
cil of Trent, some are found in it in 
such degree of orthodoxy, as we may 
well hope of their salvation." Field. Ec- 
cles. lib. iii. c. 47. 

" The Latin or western church, sub- 
ject to the Romish tyranny, was a true 
church, in which a saving profession 
of the truth of Christ was found." Jos. 
Hall bishop of Exeter, lib. Of the Old 
Religion, fine, in his advertisement to 
the reader, p. 202. 

Non pauci retinuerunt Christum fun- 
damentum, &c. Mornaeus, Tract, de 
Ecclesia, c. 9. fine. Inter sordes istas, 
ista quae summo cum periculo expec- 
tetur salus, non ipsorum additamentis, 
sed iis, quae nobiscum habent commu- 
nia, fundamentis est attribuenda. Jo. 
Prideaux, Lectione 9. fine. Papa ali- 
quam adhuc religionis formam relin- 
quit, spem vitse aeternae non tollit, &c. 

Calv. Instruct, advers. Libertinos, c. 4. 

m Here A. C. gets another snatch, 
and tells us, " That to grant a possi- 
bility of salvation in the Roman church, 
is the free confession of an adversary, 
and therefore is of force against us, and 
extorted by truth : but to say that sal- 
vation is more securely and easily to 
be had in the protestant faith, that is 
but their partial opinion in their own 
behalf, and of no force, especially with 
Roman catholics." I easily believe this 
latter part, that this, as A. C. and the 
rest use the matter with their prose- 
lytes, shall be of little or no force with 
Roman catholics. But it will behove 
them that it be of force : for let any 
indifferent man weigh the necessary re- 
quisites to salvation, and he shall find 
this no partial opinion, but very plain 
and real verity, that the protestant, 
living according to his belief, is upon 
the safer way to heaven. And as for 
my confession, let them enforce it as 
far as they can against me, so they 
observe my limitations ; which if they 
do, A. C. and his fellows will (of all 
the rest) have but little comfort in such 
a limited possibility. 

11 De Bapt. cont. Don. lib. i. c. 3. 
Graviter peccarent in rebus ad salutem 
animae pertinentibus, &c. eo solo quod 
certis incerta prseponerent. 

238 Archbishop Laud against 


Sect. 35. for s, man to prefer incerta certis, uncertainties and naked 
possibilities before an evident and certain course. And Bel- 
larmine is of opinion, and that in the point of justification, 
" that in regard of the uncertainty of our own righteous- 
ness, and of the danger of vainglory, tutissimum est, it is 
safest to repose our whole trust in the mercy and goodness 
of God." And surely, if there be one safer way than another, 
as he confesses there is, he is no wise man, that in a matter 
of so great moment will not betake himself to the safest way. 
And therefore even you yourselves in the point of condignity 
of merit, though you write it and preach it boisterously to 
the people, yet you are content to die, renouncing the con- 
dignity of all your own merits, and trust to Chrises. Now 
surely, if you will not venture to die as you live, live and 
believe in time as you mean to die. 

II. And one thing more, because you bid mark this, let 
me remember to tell you for the benefit of others. Upon 
this very point " that we acknowledge an honest ignorant 
papist may be saved" you and your like work upon the 
advantage of our charity and your own want of it to abuse 
the weak. For thus I am told you work upon them : " You 
see the protestants (at least many of them) confess there 
may be salvation in our church; we absolutely deny there 
is salvation in theirs : therefore it is safer to come to ours 
than to stay in theifs ; to be where almost all grant salva- 
tion, than where the greater part of the world deny it." 
This argument is very prevailing with men that cannot weigh 
it, and with women especially that are put in fear by P violent 
(though causeless) denying heaven unto them. And some 
of your party since this have set out a book called " Charity 
mistaken ;" but beside the answer fully given to it, this alone 
is sufficient to confute it. First, that in this our charity 
(whatever yours be) is not mistaken, unless the charity of 

o Propter incertitudinem proprise time. Quosdam scimus, &c. ad iracun- 

justitiae, et periculum inanis gloriae, diam suarn evangelium pertrahentes, 

tutissimum est nduciam totam in sola &c. quibus si potestas ea obtigisset ut 

Dei misericordia et benignitate repo- nonnullos gehennae traderent, orbem 

nere. Bellarm. de Justif. lib. v. c. 7. . quoque uni versum consumpsissent. Just. 

Sit tertia propositio. Martyr. Epist. ad Zenam et Serenum. 

P And this piece of cunning to affright And here it is, ad iracundiam suam 

the weak was in use in Justin Martyr's ecclesiam pertrahentes, &c. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 239 

the church herself were mistaken in the case of the Donatists, Sect. 35. 
as shall Rafter appear. Secondly, even mistaken charity (if 
such it were) is far better than none at all. And if the 
mistaken be ours, the none is yours. Yea, but A. 0. tells A. C. p. 56. 
us, " That this denial of salvation is grounded upon charity, 
as were the like threats of Christ and the holy Fathers. For 
there is but one true faith, and one true church, and out of 
that there is no salvation ; and he that will not hear the church, 
let him le as a heathen and a publican 1 : therefore he says, it 
is more charity to forewarn us of the danger by these threats, 
than to let us run into it through a false security." It is 
true that there is but one true faith, and but one true 
church; but that one, both faith and church, is the s catholic 
Christian, not the particular Roman. And this catholic Chris- 
tian church, he that will not both hear and obey, yea, and 
the particular church in which he lives too, so far as it in 
necessaries agrees with the universal, is in as bad condition 
as a heathen and a publican, and perhaps in some respects 
worse ; and were we in this case, we should thank A. C. for 
giving us warning of our danger. But it is not so : for he 
thunders out all these threats and denial of salvation, because 
we join not with the Roman church in all things, as if her 
corruptions were part of the catholic faith of Christ. So the 
whole passage is a mere begging of the question, and then 
threatening upon it, without all ground of reason or charity. 
In the mean time let A. C. look to himself, that in his false 
security he run not into the danger and loss of his own 
salvation, while he would seem to take such care of ours. 
But though this argument prevails with the weak, yet it is 
much stronger in the cunning than the true force of it : for 
all arguments are very moving, that lay their ground upon 
Hhe adversaries' confession, especially if it be confessed and 
avouched to be true. But if you would speak truly, and say, 

q Sect. 35. num. III. its qualities and conditions : if you leave 

r Matt, xviii. 17. out or change these, you wrong the 

s And this is proved by the Creed, confession, and then it is of no force; 

in which we profess our belief of the and so doth A. C. here. And though 

catholic, not of the Roman church. Bellarmine makes the confession of the 

t " This is a free confession of the adversary a note of the true church, de 

adversaries' argument against them- NotisEccles. lib. iv. c. 16, yet in the very 

selves, and therefore is of force." A. C. beginning, where he lays his ground, 

p. 64. But every confession of adver- . i. he lays it in a plain fallacy a secun- 

saries or others is to be taken with dum quid ad sirnpliciter. 

240 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. Many protestants indeed confess there is salvation possible 
to be attained in the Roman church ; but they say withal 
that the errors of that church are so many ( u and some so 
great as weaken the foundation) that it is very hard to go 
that way to heaven, especially to them that have had the 
truth manifested ; the heart of this argument were utterly 
broken. Besides, the force of this argument lies upon two 
things, one directly expressed, the other but as upon the by. 

III. That which is expressed is, We and our adversaries 
consent that there is salvation to some in the Roman church. 
What ! would you have us as malicious (at least as rash) as 
yourselves are to us, and deny you so much as possibility of 
salvation ? If we should, we might make you in some things 
strain for a proof. But we have not so learned Christ, as 
either to return evil for evil in this heady course, or to deny 
salvation to some ignorant silly souls, whose humble, peace- 
able obedience makes them safe among any part of men that 
profess the foundation, Christ : and therefore seek not to help 
our cause by denying this comfort to silly Christians, as you 
most fiercely do where you can come to work upon them. 
And this was an old trick of the Donatists ; for in the point 
of baptism, (whether that sacrament was true in the catholic 
church or in the part of Donatus,) they exhorted all to be 
baptized among them. Why? Because both parts granted 
that baptism was true among the Donatists ; which that 
peevish sect most unjustly denied the sound part, as x St. 
Augustine delivers it. I would ask now, Had not the ortho- 
dox true baptism among them, because the Donatists denied 
it injuriously ? Or should the orthodox against truth have 
denied baptism among the Donatists, either to cry quittance 
with them, or that their argument might not be the stronger 
because both parts granted ? But mark this, how far you run 

u For they are no mean differences much, if not more than Bellarmine. 
that are between us, by Bellarmine's " Thus we catholics hold all points, in 
own confession. Agendum est non de which protestants differ from us in doc- 
rebus levibus, sed de gravissimis quaes- trine of faith, to be fundamental and 
tionibus quae ad ipsa fidei fundamenta necessary to be believed, or at least not 
pertinent, &c. Bellarm. in praefat. denied." A. C. Relation of the first 
operibus praefixa, . 3. And therefore Conference, p. 28. 

the errors in them and the corruptions x Esse vero apud Donatistas baptis- 

of them cannot be of small consequence, mum, et illi asserunt, et nos concedi- 

by your own confession. Yes, by your mus, &c. De Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. i. 

own indeed : for you A. C. say full as c. 3. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 241 

from all common principles of Christian peace, as well as Sect. 35. 
Christian truth, while you deny salvation most unjustly to us, 
from which you are further off yourselves. Besides, if this 
were or could be made a concluding argument, I pray, why 
do not you believe with us in the point of the eucharist ? 
for all sides agree in the faith of the church of England, 
that in the most blessed sacrament the worthy receiver is 
by his Y faith made spiritually partaker of the true and real 
body and blood of Christ z truly, and really, and of all the 
benefits of his passion. Your Roman catholics add a manner 
of this his presence, transubstantiation, which many deny ; and 
the Lutherans a manner of this presence, consubstantiation, 
which more deny. If the argument be good, then even for 
this consent, it is safer communicating with the church of 
England than with the Roman or Lutheran, because all agree 
in this truth, not in any other opinion. Nay, a Suarez himself, 
and he a very learned adversary, (what say you to this, A. C. ? A. C. p. 64, 
doth truth force this from him ?) confesses plainly, " That to 6s * 
believe transubstantiation is not simply necessary to salvation ;" 
and yet he knew well the church had determined it. And 
b Bellarmine, after an intricate, tedious, and almost inexpli- 
cable discourse about an adductive conversion, (a thing which 
neither divinity nor philosophy ever heard of till then,) is at 
last forced to come to this: " c Whatsoever is concerning the 

y Corpus Christi manducatur in the words truly and really. For that 

crena, &c. tantum cnelesti et spiritual! blessed sacrament, received as it ought 

ratione : medium autem quo corpus to be, doth truly and really exhibit and 

Christi accipitur et manducatur in coena, apply the body and the blood of Christ 

fides est. Eccl. Angl. Art. XXVIII to the receiver. So bishop White in 

" After a spiritual manner by faith on our his defence against T. W. P. edit. 
lehalf, and by the working of the Holy London, 1617. p. 138. And Calvin in 
Ghost on the behalf of Christ." Fulk. in i Cor. x. 3. Vere datur, &c. And 
I Cor. xi. p. 528. Christus seipsum again in i Cor. xi. 24. Neque enim 
omnibus bonis suis in ccena offert, et mortis tantum et resurrectionis suae be- 
nos eum recipimus fide, &c. Calv. Instit. neficium nobis offert Christus, sed cor- 
iv. c. 17. 5- Et Hooker, Eccl. Pol. pus ipsum in quo passus est, et re- 
fa, v. c. 67. . 6. surrexit. Concludo realiter (ut vulgo 

And say not you the same with us ? loquuntur), hoc est, vere nobis in crena 

Spiritualis manducatio, quae per animam datur Christi corpus, ut sit anirnis nos- 

fit, ad Christi carnem in sacramento tris in ciburn salutarem, &c. 
pertingit. Cajet. torn. ii. Opusc. de Eu- a Hoc totum pendet ex principiis 

char. Tract. 2. cap. 5. Sed spiritualiter, metaphysicis et philosophicis, et ad fidei 

id est, invisibiliter, et per virtutem doctrinam non est necessarium. Suarez 

Spiritus Sancti. Thorn, p. 3. q. 75. in 3. torn. Disput. 50. . 2. 
A. i. ad i. Spiritualiter manducandus l> Bellarm. de Euchar. lib. iii. c. 18. 

est per fidem et charitatem. Tena. in . Ex his colligimus. 
Heb. xiii. difficultate 8. c Sed quid-quid sit de modis loquendi, 

z I would have no man troubled at illud tenendum est, conversionem panis 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 3 5. manner and forms of speech, illud tenendwm est, this is to be 
held, that the conversion of the bread and wine into the body 
and blood of Christ is substantial, but after a secret and 
ineffable manner, and not like in all things to any natural 
conversion whatsoever.*" Now if he had left out " conversion,*" 
and affirmed only Christ's real presence there after a myste- 
rious and indeed an ineffable manner, no man could have 
spoke better. And therefore, if you will force the argument 
always to make that the safest way of salvation which differ- 
ing parties agree on, why do you not yield to the force of 
the same argument in the belief of the sacrament, one of the 
most immediate means of salvation, where not only the most 
but all agree, and your own greatest clerks cannot tell what 
to say to the contrary ? 

IV. I speak here for the force of the argument, which 
A. C. p. 64. certainly in itself is nothing, though by A. C. made of great 
account ; for he says, "It is a confession of adversaries 
extorted by truth ;" just as d Petilian the Donatist bragged in 
the case of baptism. But in truth it is nothing ; for the 
syllogism which it frames is this : In point of faith and 
salvation it is safest for a man to take that way which the 
differing parties agree on. But papists and protestants (which 
are the differing parties) agree in this, that there is salvation 
possible to be found in the Roman church : therefore it is 
safest for a man to be and continue in the Roman church. 
To the minor proposition then, I observe this only, that 
though many learned protestants grant this, all do not. And 
then that proposition is not universally true, nor able to 
sustain the conclusion : for they do not in this all agree ; 
nay, I doubt not but there are some protestants which can 
and do as stiffly and as churlishly deny them salvation as 
they do us : and A. C. should do well to consider, whether 
they do it not upon as good reason at least. But for the 
major proposition, namely, That in point of faith and sal- 

et vini in corpus et sanguinem Christi arbitramini, ut ad hoc tibi terminan- 

esse substantialem, sed arcanam et in- dam putares epistolam quo quasi recen- 

effabilem, et millis naturaiibus conver- tins in animis legentium remaneret, bre- 

sionibus per orania similem, &c. Bellarm. viter respondeo, &c. S. August, cont. 

in Recognit. hujus loci. Et vid. Sect. 38. Lit. Petil. lib. ii. c. 108. And here 

num. III. A. C. ad hoc sibi putavit terminandam 

<1 Sed quia ita magnum firmamentum collationem ; sed frustra, ut apparebit, 

vanitatis vestrse in hac sententia esse num. VI. 

Fisher the Jesuit, 243 

vation it is safest for a man to take that way which the Sect. 35. 
adversary confesses, or the differing parties agree on, I say 
that is no metaphysical principle, but a bare contingent pro- 
position, and being indefinitely taken, may be true or false, 
as the matter is to which it is applied; but being taken 
universally is false, and not able to lead in the conclusion. 
Now that this proposition In point of faith and salvation 
it is safest for a man to take that way which the differing 
parties agree on, or which the adversary confesses hath no 
strength in itself, but is sometimes true and sometimes false, 
as the matter is about which it is conversant, is most evident. 
First, by reason : because consent of disagreeing parties is 
neither rule nor proof of truth ; for Herod and Pilate, dis- 
agreeing parties enough, yet agreed against truth itself: but 
truth rather is or should be the rule to frame, if not to force 
agreement. And secondly, by the two instances e before given : 
for in the instance between the orthodox church then and 
the Donatists this proposition is most false; for it was a 
point of faith, and so of salvation, that they were upon, 
namely, the right use and administration of the sacrament 
of baptism. And yet, had it been safest to take up that 
way which the differing parts agreed on, or which the 
adverse part confessed, men must needs have gone with the 
Donatists against the church. And this must fall out as 
oft as any heretic will cunningly take that way against the 
church which the Donatists did, if this principle shall go for 
current. But in the second instance, concerning the eucha- 
rist, a matter of faith, and so of salvation too, the same pro- 
position is most true. And the reason is, because here the 
matter is true ; namely, the true and real participation of 
the body and blood of Christ in that blessed sacrament. But 
in the former the matter was false ; namely, that rebaptiza- 
tion was necessary for baptism formally given by the church. 
So this proposition In point of faith and salvation it is 
safest for a man to take that way which the differing parties 
agree in, or which the adversary confesses is, you see, both 
true and false, as men have cunning to apply it, and as 
the matter is about which it is conversant : and is therefore 
no proposition able or fit to settle a conclusion in any sober 

e Sect. 35. num. III. 
R 2, 

244 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. man's mind, till the matter contained under it be well scanned 
and examined ? And yet, as much use as you would make of 
this proposition to amaze the weak, yourselves dare not stand 
to it ; no, not where the matter is undeniably true, as shall 
appear in divers particulars beside this of the eucharist. 

A.C.p.65. V- But before I add any other particular instances, I 
must tell you what A. C. says to the two former : for he tells 
us, " These two are nothing like the present case. 11 Nothing ! 
that is strange indeed. Why, in the first of those cases con- 
cerning the Donatists your proposition is false; and so far 
from being safest, that it was no way safe for a man to take 
that way of belief, and so of salvation, which both parts 
agreed on. And is this nothing? nay, is not this full and 
home to the present case ? For the present case is this, and 
no more, That it is safest taking that way of belief which 
the differing parties agree on, or which the adversary con- 
fesses. And in the second of those cases concerning the 
eucharist, your proposition indeed is true ; not by the truth 
which it hath in itself metaphysically and in abstract, but 
only in regard of the matter to which it is applied: yet 
there you desert your own proposition where it is true. And 
is this nothing ? nay, is not this also full and home to the 
present case, since it appears your proposition is such as your- 
selves dare not bide by, either when it is true or when it is 
false ? For in the case of baptism administered by the Donatist, 
the proposition is false, and you dare not bide by it for truth's 
sake. And in the case of the eucharist the proposition is 
true, and yet you dare not bide by it for the church of Rome's 
sake. So that church (with you) cannot err, and yet will not 
suffer you to maintain truth ; which not to do is some degree 
of error, and that no small one. 

A. C. p. 65. VI. Well, A. C. goes on, and gives his reasons why these 
two instances are nothing like the present case. " For in 
these cases," saith he, " there are annexed other reasons of cer- 
tainly known peril of damnable schism and heresy, which we 
should incur by consenting to the Donatists' denial of true 
baptism among catholics, and to the protestants' denial or 
doubting of the true substantial presence of Christ in the 
eucharist ; but in this case of resolving to live and die in the 
catholic Roman church, there is confessedly no such peril of 

Fisher the Jesuit. 245 

any damnable heresy or schism, or any other sin." Here I Sect. 35. 
have many particulars to observe upon A. C., and you shall 
have them as briefly as I can set them down. 

And first, I take A. C. at his word, that in the case of the Punct. i. 
Donatists, should it be followed, there would be known peril 
of damnable schism and heresy by denying true baptism to be 
in the orthodox church. For by this you may see what a sound 
proposition this is, That where two parties are dissenting, it 
is safest believing that in which both parties agree, or which 
the adversary confesses ; for here you may see by the case 
of the Donatist is confessed, it may lead a man that will 
universally lean to it into known and damnable schism and 
heresy. An excellent guide, I promise you, this ; is it not I 

Nor, secondly, are these, though A. C. calls them so, an- Punct. 2. 
nexed reasons ; for he calls them so but to blanch the mat- A * p * 5 * 
ter, as if they fell upon the proposition ab extra, accidentally, 
and from without ; whereas they are not annexed or pinned 
on, but flow naturally out of the proposition itself. For 
the proposition would seem to be metaphysical, and is applia- 
ble indifferently to any common belief of dissenting parties, 
be the point in difference what it will. Therefore if there be 
any thing heretical, schismatical, or any way evil in the point, 
this proposition, being neither universally nor necessarily true, 
must needs cast him that relies upon it upon all these rocks 
of heresy, schism, or whatever else follows the matter of the 

Thirdly, A. 0. doth extremely ill to join these cases of the Punct. 3. 
Donatists for baptism and the protestants for the eucharist At C ' p * 66> 
together, as he doth. For this proposition in the first, con- 
cerning the Donatists, leads a man (as is confessed by him- 
self) into known and damnable schism and heresy ; but, by 
A. O.'s good leave, the latter, concerning the protestants and 
the eucharist, nothing so. For I hope A. C. dare not say, 
that to believe the true, f substantial presence of Christ is 
either known or damnable schism or heresy. Now as many 

f Caeterum his absurditatibus subla- Inst. lib. iv. c. 17. . 19. In coenae 

tis, quicquid ad exprimendam veram mysterio per symbola panis et vini 

substaiitialemque corporis ac sanguinis Christus vere nobis exhibetur, &c. Et 

Domini communicationem, quae sub sa- nos participes substantise ejus facti su- 

cris ccenae symbolis, fidelibus exhibetur, mus. Ibid. . u. 
facere potest, libenter recipio. Calv. 

R 2 

246 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. and as learned gprotestants believe and maintain this, as do 
believe possibility of salvation (as before is limited) in the 
Roman church : therefore they, in that, not guilty of either 
known or damnable schism or heresy, though the Donatists 
were of both. 
Punct. 4. Fourthly, whereas he imposes upon the protestants " the 

A. C. p. 66. jgjjjgj or doubting of the true and real presence of Christ in 
the eucharist," he is a great deal more bold than true in 
that also ; for understand them right, and they certainly nei- 
ther deny nor doubt it. For as for the Lutherans, as they are 
commonly called, their very opinion of consubstantiation 
makes it known to the world, that they neither deny nor 
doubt of his true and real presence there ; and they are pro- 
testants. And for the Calvinists, if they might be rightly 
understood, they also maintain a most true and real presence, 
though they cannot permit their judgment to be transubstan- 
tiated ; and they are protestants too. And this is so known 
a truth that h Bellarmine confesses it; for he saith, " Pro- 
testants do often grant that the true and real body of Christ 
is in the eucharist." But he adds, " That they never say (so 
far as he hath read) that it is there truly and really, unless 
they speak of the supper which shall be in heaven." Well ; 
first, if they grant that the true and real body of Christ is in 
that blessed sacrament, (as Bellarmine confesses they do, and 

A. C. p. 65, it is most true,) then A. C. is false, who charges all the pro- 
testants with denial or doubtfulness in this point. And 
secondly, Bellarmine himself also shews here his ignorance or 
his malice ; ignorance, if he knew it not, malice, if he would 
not know it. For the Calvinists, at least they which follow 
Calvin himself, do not only believe that the true and real 
body of Christ is received in the eucharist, but that it is 
there, and that we partake of it vere et realiter, which are 
i Calvin's own words ; and yet Bellarmine boldly affirms that 
to his reading " no one protestant did ever affirm it. 11 And 

S Sect. 35. num. III. ants under the name of sacramentarii 

h Bellarm. de Euchar. lib. i. c. 2. is plain. For he says the council of 

. Quinto dicit. Sacramentarii saepe Trent opposed this word realiter, fig- 

dicunt reale corpus Christi in coena ad- mento Calvinistico, to the Cavinistical 

esse, sed realiter adesse nunquam di- figment. Ibid. 

cunt, quod legerim, nisi forte loquun- i Calv. in i Cor. x. 3. vere, &c. et in. 

tur de crena quae fit in ccelo, &c. i Cor. xi. 24. realiter. Vide supra 

And that he means to brand protest- num. III. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 247 

I for my part cannot believe but Bellarmine had read Cal- Sect. 35. 
vin, and very carefully, he doth so frequently and so mainly 
oppose him. Nor can that place by any art be shifted, or by 
any violence wrested from Calvin's true meaning of the pre- 
sence of Christ in and at the blessed sacrament of the eucha- 
rist, to any supper in heaven whatsoever. But most manifest it 
is, that quod legerim, " for aught I have read, 1 ' will never serve 
Bellarmine to excuse him: for he himself, but in the very 
k chapter going before, quotes four places out of Calvin, in 
which he says expressly, that we receive in the sacrament the 
body and blood of Christ vere, truly. So Calvin says it four 
times, and Bellarmine quotes the places ; and yet he says in 
the very next chapter, that never any protestant said so, to 
his reading. And for the church of England, nothing is more 
plain than that it believes and teaches the true and real pre- 
sence of Christ in the ^ eucharist, unless A. C. can make a 
body no body, and blood no blood, (as perhaps he can by 
transubstantiation,) as well as bread no bread, and wine no 
wine : and the church of England is protestant too. So pro- 
testants of all sorts maintain a true and real presence of 
Christ in the eucharist ; and then, where is any known or 
damnable heresy here ? As for the learned of those zealous 
men that died in this cause in queen Mary's days, they denied 
not the real presence simply taken, but as their opposites 
forced transubstantiation upon them, as if that and the real 
presence had been all one. Whereas all the ancient Chris- 
tians ever believed the one, and none but modern and super- 
stitious Christians believe the other, if they do believe it ; for 
I doubt, for my part, they do not. And as for the unlearned 
in those times, and all times, their zeal (they holding the 
foundation) may eat out their ignorances and leave them safe. 
Now that the learned protestants in queen Mary's days did 

k Bellarm. de Eucharistia, lib. i. c. I. secration thus : " Grant us, gracious 

. Secundo docet. Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Sou 

1 "The body of Christ is given, taken, Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood," 

and eaten in the supper (of the Lord) &c. And again, in the second prayer, 

only after an heavenly and spiritual or thanksgiving after consecration, 

manner. And the means whereby the thus : " We give thee thanks, for that 

body of Christ is received and eaten is thou dost vouchsafe to feed us, which 

faith." Eccl. Angl.Art.XXVIII. So here have duly received these holy mysteries, 

is the manner of transubstantiation de- with the spiritual food of the most pre- 

nied, but the body of Christ twice af- cious body and blood of thy Son our 

firmed. And in the prayer before con- Saviour, Jesus Christ," &c. 


248 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. not deny, nay, did maintain the real presence, will manifestly 
appear. For when the commissioners obtruded to Jo. Frith 
the presence of Christ's natural body in the sacrament, and 
that without all figure or similitude, Jo. Frith acknowledges, 
" m That the inward man doth as verily receive Christ's body 
as the outward man receives the sacrament with his mouth." 
And he adds, " n That neither side ought to make it a neces- 
sary article of faith, but leave it indifferent." Nay, arch- 
bishop Cranmer comes more plainly and more home to it 
than Frith. " For if you understand," saith he , " by this word 
really, reipsa; that is, in very deed and effectually; so Christ, 
by the grace and efficacy of his passion, is indeed and truly 
present, &c. But if by this word really you understand 
Vcorporaliter, corporally in his natural and organical body, 
under the forms of bread and wine, it is contrary to the holy 
word of God." And so likewise bishop Ridley. Nay, bishop Rid- 
ley adds yet further, and speaks so fully to this point, as I 
think no man can add to his expression : and it is well if 
some protestants except not against it. " Both you and I," 
saith qhe, "agree in this; that in the sacrament is the very 
true and natural body and blood of Christ, even that which 
was born of the Virgin Mary, which ascended into heaven, 
which sits on the right hand of God the Father, which shall 

m Jo. Fox, Martyrolog. torn, ii. Lon- in a notorious contradiction : or else it 

don, 1597. p. 943. will follow plainly out of him, that 

n Fox, ibid. Christ in the sacrament is existent one 

o Cranmer apud Fox, ibid. p. 1301. way and received another, which is a 

I> I say corporaliter, corporally; for gross absurdity. And that corporaliter 

so Bellarmine hath it expressly : Quod was the doctrine of the church of 

autem corporaliter et proprie sumatur Rome, and meant by transubstantia- 

sanguis et caro, &c. probari potest om- tion, is further plain in the book called 

nibus argumentis, &c. Bellarm. de Eu- The Institution of a Christian Man, set 

charist. lib. i. c. 12. . Sed tota. And forth by the bishops in convocation in 

I must be bold to tell you more than Henry the Eighth's time, anno 1534. 

that this is the doctrine of the church chap. Of the Sacrament of the Altar : 

of Rome ; for I must tell you too, that the words are, " Under the form and 

Bellarmine here contradicts himself: figure of bread and wine, the very 

for he that tells us here, that it can be body and blood of Christ is corporally, 

proved by many arguments that we re- really, &c. exhibited and received," &c. 

ceive the flesh and the blood of Christ And Aquinas expresses it tlms : Quia 

in the eucharist corporaliter^ said as tamen substantia corporis Christi reali- 

expressly before, (had he remembered ter non dividitur a sua quantitate di- 

it,) that though Christ be in this blessed mensiva, et ab aliis accidentibus, inde 

sacrament vere et realiter, yet (saith he) est, quod ex vi realis concomitantiae est in 

non dicemus corporaliter, i. e. eo modo hoc sacramento totaquantitasdimensiva 

quo sua natura existunt corpora, &c. corporis Christi, et omnia accidentia 

Bellarm. de Eucharist, lib. i. c. 2. . ejus. Thorn, p. 3. q. 76. Art. 4. C. 

Tertia regula. So Bellarmine here is q Apud Fox, ibid. p. 1 598. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 249 

come from thence to judge the quick and the dead : only we Sect. 35. 
differ in modo, in the way and manner of being. We confess 
all one thing to be in the sacrament, and dissent in the man- 
ner of being there. I confess Christ 1 s natural body to be in 
the sacrament by spirit and grace, &c. You make a grosser 
kind of being, inclosing a natural body under the shape and 
form of bread and wine." So far and more, bishop Ridley. 
And r archbishop Cranmer confesses that he was indeed of 
another opinion, and inclining to that of Zuinglius, till bishop 
Ridley convinced his judgment and settled him in this point. 
And for s Calvin, he comes no whit short of these, against the 
calumny of the Romanists on that behalf. Now after all this, 
with what face can A. C. say (as he doth), that protestants 
deny or doubt of the true and real presence of Christ in the 
sacrament ? I cannot well tell, or am unwilling to utter. 

Fifthly, whereas it is added by A. C., " That in this present Punct. 5. 
case there is no peril of any damnable heresy, schism, or any A ' C -P- 66 - 
other sin, in resolving to live and die in the Roman church," 
that is not so neither ; for he that lives in the Roman 
church with such a resolution, is presumed to believe as that 
church believes. And he that doth so, I will not say is as 
guilty, but guilty he is more or less, of the schism which that 
church first caused by her corruptions, and now continues by 
them and her power together ; and of all her damnable 
opinions too in point of misbelief; though perhaps A. C. will 
not have them called heresies, unless they have been con- 
demned in some general council, and of all other sins also, 
which the doctrine and misbelief of that church leads him 
into. And mark it I pray. For it is one thing to live in a 
schismatical church, and not communicate with it in the 
schism, or in any false worship that attends it. For so e Elias 
lived among the ten tribes and was not schismatical, and 
after him u Elisseus. But then neither of them either coun- 
tenanced the schism, or worshipped the calves in Dan or in 

r Apud Fox, ibid. p. 1 703. nem esse potum. Talibus alimentis 

* Tantum de modo quaestio est, &c. animam illi mearn pascendam offero. 

Et facessat calumnia auferri Christum In S. coana jubet me sub symbolis pa- 

a ccena sua, &c. Calv. Inst. lib. iv. c. nis et vim corpus et sanguinern suum 

J 7- 3 1 - Veritatera Dei in qua ac- sumere, mandxicare et bibere. Nihil 

quiescere tuto licet, sine controversia dubito, quin et ipse vere porrigat: et 

amplectar. Pronunciat ille car nem ego recipiam. Calv. ibid. .32. 

suam esse animee meae cibum, sangui- t 3 Reg. xvii. u 4 Reg. iii. 

250 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. Bethel. And so also, beside these prophets, did those thou- 
sands live in a schismatical church, yet x never bowed their knee 
to Baal. But it is quite another thing to live in a schismati- 
cal church, and communicate with it in the schism and in all the 
superstitions and corruptions which that church teaches, nay, 
to live and die in them. For certainly here no man can so 
live in a schismatical church, but, if he be of capacity enough 
and understand it, he must needs be a formal schismatic, or 
an involved one if he understand it not. And in this case the 
church of Rome is either far worse or more cruel than the 
church of Israel, even under Ahab and Jezebel, was. The 
synagogue indeed was corrupted a long time and in a great 
degree ; but I do not find that this doctrine, You must sacri- 
fice in the high places, or this, You may not go and worship 
at the one altar in Jerusalem, was either taught by the 
priests or maintained by the prophets, or enjoined the people 
by the sanhedrim: nay, can you shew me when any Jew, 
living there devoutly according to the law, was ever punished 
for omitting the one of these or doing the other ? But the 
church of Rome hath solemnly decreed her errors; and 
erring, hath yet decreed withal that she cannot err ; and im- 
posed upon learned men disputed and improbable opinions, 
transubstantiation, purgatory, and forbearance of the cup in 
the blessed eucharist, even against the express command of 
our Saviour, and that for articles of faith. And to keep off 
/ disobedience, whatever the corruption be, she hath bound up 
her decrees upon pain of excommunication and all that fol- 
lows upon it. Nay, this is not enough, unless the fagot be 
kindled to light them the way. This then may be enough for 
us to leave Rome, though the yold prophet forsook not Israel. 
And therefore in this present case there is peril, great peril 
of damnable both schism and heresy, and other sin, by living 
and dying in the Roman faith, tainted with so many super- 
stitions as at this day it is, and their tyranny to boot. So 
that here I may answer A. C. just as z St. Augustine answered 
Petilian the Donatist in the fore-named case of baptism. For 

x 3 Reg- xix. 1 8. dem perire non vultis. Nam ut facile 

y 3 Reg. xiii. u. cognoscatis quod ipsi sunt rei, de fide 

i- Petilianus dixit, Venite ad ecclesiam nostra optime judicant. Ego illorum 

populi, et aufugite traditores (ita or- infectos baptizo. Illi meos (quod absit) 

thodoxos turn appellavit) si cum iis- recipiunt baptizatos, quse omnino non 

Fisher the Jesuit. 251 

when Petilian pleaded the concession of his adversaries, Sect. 35. 
" That baptism, as the Donatists administered it, was good 
and lawful," and thence inferred, (just as the Jesuit doth 
against me,) " that it was better for men to join with his con- 
gregation than with the church ;" St. Augustine answers : 
" We do indeed approve among heretics baptism, but so, not 
as it is the baptism of heretics, but as it is the baptism of 
Christ. Just as we approve the baptism of adulterers, idola- 
ters, witches ; and yet not as it is theirs, but as it is Christ's 
baptism. For none of these, for all their baptism, shall inherit 
the kingdom of God : and the apostle reckons heretics among 
them a ." And again afterwards : " It is not therefore yours, 11 
saith b St. Augustine, " that we fear to destroy, but Christ's ; 
which, even among the sacrilegious, is of and in itself holy." 1 
Now you shall see how full this comes home to our Petilianist, 
A. C., (for he is one of the contractors of the church of Christ to 
Rome, as the Donatists confined it to Afric ;) and he cries out, 
" That a possibility of salvation is a free confession of the A. C. p. 64, 
adversaries, and is of force against them, and to be thought 5 * 
extorted from them by force of truth itself." I answer : I do 
indeed, for my part, (leaving other men free to their own judg- 
ment,) acknowledge a possibility of salvation in the Roman 
church ; but so, as that which I grant to Romanists, is not 
as they are Romanists, but as they are Christians ; that is, 
as they believe the Creed and hold the foundation, Christ 
himself, not as they associate themselves wittingly and know- 
ingly to the gross superstitions .of the Romish church. Nor 
do I fear to destroy quod ipsorum est, that which is theirs ; 
but yet I dare not proceed so roughly as with theirs or for 
theirs to deny or weaken the foundation, which is Christ's, 
even among them, and which is and remains holy, even in 
the midst of their superstitions : and I am willing to hope 
there are many among them which keep within that church, 

facerent, si in baptismo nostro culpas nes enim isti, inter quos et haeretici sunt, 

aliquas agnovissent. Videte ergo quod sicut dicit apostolus, regnum Dei non 

damns, qtiam sanctum sit, quod de- possidebunt, &c. S. August, cont. Lit. 

struere metuit sacrilegus inimicus. S. Petiliani, lib. ii. c. 108. 
August, respondet: Sic approbamus in a Gal. v. 19, 20, 21. 
haereticis baptismum, non haereticorum, b Non ergo vestrum est quod de- 

sed Christi ; sicut in fornicatoribus, ido- struere metuimus, sed Christi ; quod et 

lolatris, veneficis, &c. approbamus bap- in sacrilegis per se sanctum est. S. Au- 

tismum non eorum, sed Christi. Om- gust. ibid. 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. and yet wish the superstitions abolished which they know, 
and which pray to God to forgive their errors in what they 
know not ; and which hold the foundation firm, and live ac- 
cordingly; and which would have all things amended that 
are amiss, were it in their power. And to such I dare not 
deny a possibility of salvation, for that which is Christ's in 
them ; though they hazard themselves extremely by keeping 
so close to that which is superstition, and in the case of 
images comes too near idolatry. Nor can A. C. shift this off 
A. C. p. 66. by adding, " living and dying in the Eoman church." For 
this " living and dying in the Roman church" (as is before 
expressed) cannot take away the possibility of salvation from 
them which believe and repent of whatsoever is error or sin 
in them, be it sin known to them or be it not. But then 
perhaps A. C. will reply, that if this be so, I must then main- 
tain that a Donatist also, living and dying in schism, might 
be saved. To which I answer two ways. First, that a plain 
honest Donatist, having (as is confessed) true baptism, and 
holding the foundation, (as for aught I know the c Donatists 

c For though Prateolus will make 
Donatus, and from him the Donatists, 
to be guilty of an impious heresy (I 
doubt he means Arianism, though he 
name it not) in making the Son of God 
less than the Father, and the Holy 
Ghost less than the Son, De Haeres. 
lib. iv. haer. 14, yet these things are 
most manifest out of St. Augustine con- 
cerning them, who lived with them, 
both in time and place, and understood 
them and their tenets far better than 
Prateolus could. . 

And first, St. Augustine tells us con- 
cerning them, Ariani Patris et Fi- 
lii et Spiritus Sancti diversas sub- 
stantias esse dicunt : Donatistae autem 
imam Trinitatis substantiam confiten- 
tur. So they are no Arians. 

Secondly, Si aliqui eorum minorem 
Filium esse dixerunt quam Pater est, 
ejusdem tamen substantial non nega- 
runt. But this is but si aliqui, if any. 
So it was doubtful, this too, though 
Prateolus delivers it positively. 

Thirdly, Plurimi vero in'iis hoc se 
dicunt, omnino credere de Patre et Fi- 
lio et Spiritu Sancto, quod catholica 
credit ecclesia. Nee ipsa cum illis ver- 
titur quaestio, sed de sola communione 

infoeliciter litigant, &c. De sola, only 
about the union with the church. There- 
fore they erred not in fundamental 
points of faith. And, 

Lastly, all that can further be said 
against them is, that some of them, to 
win the Goths to them when they were 
powerful, said, Hoc se credere quod et 
illi credunt. Now the Goths (for the 
most) were Arians : but then, saith St. 
Augustine, they were but nonnulli, 
some of them. And of this some it 
was no more certain than sicut audivi- 
musj as we have heard ; St. Augustine 
knew it not. And then if it were true 
of some, yet majorum suorum authori- 
tate convincuntur; quia nee Donatus 
ipse sic credidisse asseritur, de cujus 
parte se esse gloriantur. S. August. 
Epist. 50. Where Prateolus is again 
deceived; for he says expressly, that 
Donatus affirmed the Son to be less 
than the Father : Impius ille asserebat, 
&c. But then indeed, (and which per- 
chance deceived Prateolus,) beside Do- 
natus, the founder of this heresy, there 
was another Donatus, who succeeded 
Majorinus at Carthage, and he was 
guilty of the heresy which Prateolus 
mentions; Et extant scripta ejus ubi 

Fisher the Jesuit. 253 

did,) and repenting of whatever was sin in him, and would Sect. 35. 
have repented of the schism, had it been known to him, might 
be saved. Secondly, that in this particular, the Romanist 
and the Donatist differ much ; and that therefore it is not of 
necessary consequence, that if a Romanist now (upon the con- 
ditions before expressed) may be saved, therefore a Donatist 
heretofore might : for in regard of the schism, the Donatist 
was in one respect worse and in greater danger of damnation 
than the Romanist now is, and in another respect better and 
in less danger. The Donatist was in greater danger of dam- 
nation, if you consider the schism itself then ; for they brake 
from the orthodox church without any cause given them. 
And here it doth not follow, if the Romanist have a possibility of 
salvation, therefore a Donatist hath. But if you consider the 
cause of the schism now, then the Donatist was in less danger 
of damnation than the Romanist is ; because the church of 
Rome gave the first and the greatest cause of the schism, (as 
is proved d before.) And therefore here it doth not follow, 
that if a Donatist have possibility of salvation, therefore a 
Romanist hath ; for a lesser offender may have that possibi- 
lity of safety which a greater hath not. 

And last of all ; whereas A. C. adds, that " confessedly Punct. 6. 
there is no such peril," that is a most loud untruth, and an ' p ' 
ingenuous man would never have said it. For in the same 
e place, where I grant a possibility of salvation in the Roman 
church, I presently add, that it is no secure way in regard of 
Roman corruptions. And A. C. cannot plead for himself, 
that he either knew not this, or that he overlooked it ; for 
himself disputes against it as strongly as he can. What mo- 
desty or truth call you this ? for he that confesses a possi- 
bility of salvation, doth not thereby confess no peril of dam- 
nation in the same way. Yea, but if some protestants should 
say there is peril of damnation to live and die in the Roman 
faith, their saying is nothing in comparison of the number 
or worth of those that say there is none. So A. C. again: 
" And beside, they which say it are contradicted by their own 

apparet, as St. Augustine confesses, that this Donatus held that opinion, 

De H seres, lib. i. haer. 69. But then much less did they believe it them- 

St. Augustine adds there also, nee fa- selves. S. August, ibid, 

cile in iis quisquam, that scarce any d Sect. 2 1 . num. I, &c. 

of the Donatists did so much as know e Sect. 35. num. I, II. 

254 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. more learned brethren." Here A. C. speaks very confusedly: but 
A. C. p. 66. w hether he speak of protestants or Romanists, or mixes them, 
the matter is not great ; for as for the number and worth of 
men, they are no necessary concluders of truth. Not num- 
ber : for who would be judged by the many ? The time was 
when the f Arians were too many for the orthodox. Not 
worth simply; for that once s misled, is of all other the greatest 
misleader : and yet God forbid that to worth weaker men 
should not yield in difficult and perplexed questions ; yet so 
as that when matters fundamental in the faith come in ques- 
tion, they finally rest upon a higher and clearer certainty 
than can be found in either number or weight of men. 
Besides, if you mean your own party, you have not yet proved 
your party more worthy for life or learning than the protest- 
ants. Prove that first, and then it will be time to tell you 
how worthy many of your popes have been for either life or 
learning. As for the rest, you may blush to say it : for all 
protestants unanimously agree in this, " That there is great 
peril of damnation for any man to live and die in the Roman 
persuasion ;" and you are not able to produce any one pro- 
testant that ever said the contrary. And therefore that is a 
most notorious slander, where you say, that they which affirm 
A. C. p. 66. this peril of damnation are contradicted by their own more 
learned brethren. 

VII. And thus having cleared the way against the excep- 

f Ingemuit totus orbis, et Arianum propterea causa fidei fit inferior; nam 
se esse miratus est. S. Hier. advers. olirn tres solurn erant reperti, qui regis 
Luciferian. post medium, torn. ii. Aria- mandate resisterent, &c. Theod. Hist. Ec- 
norum venenum non jam portiunculam cles. lib. ii.c. 16. dialogo inter Constant, 
quandam, sed pene orbem totum con- imp. et Liberium papam. So that pope 
tarninaverat, adeo ut prope cunctis La- did not think multitude any great note 
tini sermonis episcopis, partim vi, partim of the true church. Ubi sunt, &c. qui 
fraude deceptis, caligo quaedam menti- ecclesiam multitudine definiunt, et par- 
bus offunderetur, &c. Vin. Lirin. cont. vum gregern aspernantur, &c. Greg. 
Haeres. c. 6. Ecclesia non parietibus Naz. Orat. 25. prin. Nay, the Arians 
consistit, sed in dogmatum veritate. were grown to that boldness, that they 
Ecclesia ibi est, ubi fides vera est. Cae- objected to the catholics of that time 
terum ante annos quindecim, autviginti, paucitatem, the thinness of their num- 
parietes omnes hie ecclesiarum haeretici ber, Greg. Naz.Carm. de Vita sua, p. 24. 
(de Arianis et aliis haereticis loquitur) edit. Paris. 1611. Quum ejecti tamen 
possidebant, &c. Ecclesia autem illic essent de civitatibus, jactabant in de- 
erat, ubi fides vera erat. S. Hier. in sertis suis synagogis illud, Multivocati, 
Psal. cxxxiii. Constantius : Tantane pauci electi. Socrat. Hist. Eccles. lib. i. 
orbis terrae pars, liberi, in te residet, c. 10. 

ut tu solus homini impio (de Athanasio g Error Origenis et Tertulliani magna 

loquitur) subsidio venire, et pacem orbis fuit in ecclesia Dei populi tentatio. Vin. 

ae mundi totius dirimere audeas ? Libe- Lirin. cont. Hsr. c. 23 et 24. 
rius : Esto quod ego solus sim, non tamen 

Fisher the Jesuit. 255 


tions of A. C. to the two former instances, I will now pro- Sect. 35. 
ceed (as I h promised) to make this further appear, that A. C. 
and his fellows dare not stand to that ground which is here 
laid down, namely, " That in point of faith and salvation, 
it is safest for a man to take that way which the adversary 
confesses to be true, or whereon the differing parties agree ;" 
and that if they do stand to it, they must be forced to main- 
tain the church of England in many things against the 
church of Rome. 

And first, I instance in the Article of our Saviour Chrises Punct. i. 
descent into hell. I hope the church of Rome believes this 
article ; and withal, that hell is the place of the damned : so 
doth the church of England. In this then these dissenting 
churches agree ; therefore, according to the former rule, (yea, 
and here in truth too,) it is safest for a man to believe this 
article of the Creed, as both agree ; that is, that Christ 
descended in soul into the place of the damned. But this 
the Romanists will not endure at any hand ; "for the 
school 1 agree in it, that the soul of Christ in the time of his 
death went really no further than in Iwibum patrum ,-" which 
is not the place of the damned, but a region or quarter in 
the upper part of hell (as they call it), built up there by the 
Romanist, without license of either scripture or the primitive 
church. And a man would wonder how those builders iwith 
untempered mortar found light enough in that dark place to 
build as they have done. 

Secondly, I will instance in the institution of the sacrament Punct. 2. 
in both kinds. That Christ instituted it so, is confessed by 
both churches ; that the ancient churches received it so, is 
agreed by both churches : therefore, according to the former 
rule, (and here in truth too,) it is safest for a man to receive 
this sacrament in both kinds. And yet here this ground of 
A. C. must not stand for good ; no, not at Rome ; but to 
receive in one kind is enough for the laity. And the poor 

Bohemians k must have a dispensation, that it may be lawful 


h Sect. 35. num. IV. k Basiliense concilium concessit Bohe- 
i Sequuntur enim Thorn, p. 3. q. 52. mis utriusque speciei usum : modo fate- 
Art. 2. c. Verha ejus sunt. Anima rentur id sibi concedi ah ecclesia, non 
Christi per suam essentiam descendit autem ad hoc teneri divino jure. Bel- 
solum ad locum inferni, in quo justi larm. de Sacrament, in genere, lib. i. 
detinebantur, &c. c. 2. . 2. 
i Ezech. xiii. 10. 

256 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. for them to receive the sacrament as Christ commanded 
them. And this must not be granted to them neither, unless 
they will acknowledge (most opposite to truth) that they are 
not bound by divine law to receive it in both kinds. And 
here their building with untempered mortar appears most 
manifestly : for they have no show to maintain this but the 
fiction of Thomas of Aquin, " That he which receives the 
body of Christ receives also his blood per concomitantiam, by 
concomitancy ; because the blood goes always with the body :" 
of which term 'Thomas was the first author I can yet find. 
First then, if this be true, I hope Christ knew it ; and then, 
why did he so unusefully institute it in both kinds ? Next, 
if this be true, concomitancy accompanies the priest as well 
as the people ; and then, why may not he receive it in one 
kind also I Thirdly, this is apparently not true : for the 
eucharist is a sacrament sanguinis efusi, of blood shed and 
v poured out ; and blood poured out, and so severed from the 
body, goes not along with the body per concomitantiam. And 
yet Christ must rather err, or proceed I know not how in the 
institution of the sacrament in both kinds, rather than the 
holy, unerring church of Rome may do amiss in the deter- 
mination for it and the administration of it in one kind. Nor 
will the distinction, " That Christ instituted this as a sacri- 
fice, to which both kinds were necessary," serve the turn : for 
i suppose that true, yet he instituted it as a sacrament also, 

f"$V or else that sacrament had no institution from Christ ; which 
I suppose A. C. dares not affirm. And that institution which 
the sacrament had from Christ was in both kinds. 

Punrt. 3. And since here is mention happened of sacrifice, my third 
instance shall be in the sacrifice which is offered up to God 
in that great and high mystery of our redemption by the 
death of Christ. For as Christ offered up m himself once for 

1 Thorn, p. 3. q. 76. Art. 2. C. et alibi which place the school infers, Passionem 

passim. Christi verum sacrificium fuisse. Thorn. 

"' Christ, by his own blood, entered p. 3. q. 48. Art. 3. C. "Christ did suffer 

once into the holy place, and obtained death upon the cross for our redernp- 

eiernal redemption for us, Heb. ix. 12. tion ; and made there, by his one obla- 

And this was done by way of sacrifice, tion of himself once offered, a full, per- 

by the offering of the body of Jesus feet, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, 

Christ once made, Heb. x. 10. Christ and satisfaction for the sins of the 

gave himself for us, to be an offering whole world." Eccles. Angl in Canone 

and a sacrifice of a sweetsmelling sa- Consecrationis Eucharist. 
vour unto God, Ephes. v. 2. Out of 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


all, a full and all-sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the whole Sect. 35. 
world, so did he institute and command a "memory of this 
sacrifice in a sacrament, even till his coming again. For at 
and in the eucharist we offer up to God three sacrifices : 
one by the priest only ; that is the commemorative sacrifice 
of Christ's death, represented in bread broken and wine poured 
out ; another by the P priest and the people jointly, and that 
is the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving for all the benefits 
and graces we receive by the precious death of Christ ; the 
third, q by every particular man for himself only ; and that is 

n " And Christ did institute, and in 
his holy gospel command us to continue, 
a perpetual memory of that his precious 
death until his coming again." Eccles. 
Angl. Ibid. 

o Sacramentum hoc est commemora- 
tivum Dominicae passionis, quae fuit 
verum sacrificium ; et sic nominator 
sacrificium. Thorn, p. 3. q. 73. Art. 4. C. 
" Christ being offered up once for all in 
his own proper person, is yet said to be 
offered up, &c. in the celebration of the 
sacrament ; because his oblation once 
for ever made is thereby represented." 
Lambert in Fox his Martyrology, vol. 
ii. edit. Lond. 1579. P- TO 33- Et postea. 
" It is a memorial or representation there- 
of." Ibid. The master of the sentences 
judged truly in this point, saying, " That 
which is offered and consecrated of the 
priest is called a sacrifice and oblation, 
because it is a memory and represent- 
ation of the true sacrifice and holy obla- 
tion made on the altar of the cross." 
Archbishop Cranmer, in his Answer to 
Bishop Gardiner, concerning the most 
holy Sacrament, lib. v. p. 377. And 
again, this shortly is the mind of Lom- 
bardus, " That the thing which is done 
at God's board is a sacrifice, and so is 
that also which was made upon the 
cross, but not after one manner of un- 
derstanding : for this was the thing 
indeed, and that is the commemoration 
of the thing." Ibid. So likewise bishop 
Jewel acknowledgeth incruentum et ra- 
tionabile sacrificium, spoken of by Euse- 
bius de Demonstrat. Evang. lib. i. 
Jeivel's Reply against Harding, Art. 7. 
Divis. 9. Again, the ministration of 
the holy communion is sometimes of 
the ancient Fathers called an unbloody 
sacrifice ; not in respect of any corporal 
or fleshly presence that is imagined to 
be there without blood -shed ding, but 
for that it representeth and reporteth 

to OTir minds that one and everlasting 
sacrifice that Christ made in his body 
upon the cross. This bishop Jewel 
disliketh not in his Answer to Harding, 
Art. 17. Divis. 14. Patres coenam Do- 
minicam duplici de causa vocarunt sa- 
crificium incruentum. Turn quod sit 
imago et solennis repraesentatio illius 
sacrificii /Actcm/coD quod Christus cum 
sanguinis effusione obtulit in cruce : 
turn quod sit etiam eucharisticum sacri- 
ficium, id est, sacrificium laudis et gra- 
tiarum actionis, cum pro beneficiis om- 
nibus, turn pro redemptione imprimis 
per Christi mortem peracta. Zanch. in 
2. Praecept. Decal. torn. iv. pag. 459. 
And Dr. Fulk also acknowledges a sa- 
crifice in the eucharist, in St. Matth. 
xxvi. 26. Non dissimulaverint Chris- 
tiani in ccena Domini, sive ut ipsi loque- 
bantur, in sacrificio altaris peculiar! 
quodam modo praesentem se venerari 
Deum Christianorum, sed quae esset 
forma ejus sacrificii quod per symbola 
panis et vini peragitur, hoc veteres prae 
se non ferebant. Isa. Casaub. Exercit. 
1 6. ad Annal. Baron. . 43. p. 560. 

P In the Liturgy of the church of 
England, we pray to God, immediately 
after the reception of the sacrament, that 
he would be pleased to accept this our 
" sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving," 
&c. And Heb. xiii. 15. " The sacrifice 
propitiatory was made by Christ him- 
self only, but the sacrifice commemora- 
tive and gratulatory is made by the 
priest and the people." Archbishop 
Cranmer in his Answer to Bishop Gardi- 
ner, lib. v. p. 377. 

<l / beseech you, brethren, by the 
mercies of God, that you give up your 
bodies a living sacrifice, holy, and ac- 
ceptable unto God. Rom. xii. i. " We 
offer, and present unto thee, O Lord, 
ourselves, our souls and bodies, to be a 
reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice 

258 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. the sacrifice of every man's body and soul, to serve him in 
both all the rest of his life for this blessing thus bestowed on 
him. Now thus far these dissenting churches agree, that 
in the eucharist there is a sacrifice of duty, and a sacrifice 
of praise, and a sacrifice of commemoration of Christ. There- 
fore, according to the former rule, (and here in truth too,) 
it is safest for a man to believe the commemorative, the 
praising, and the performing sacrifice; and to offer them 
duly to Grod, and leave the church of Rome in this particular 
to her superstitions, that I may say no more. And would 
the church of Rome stand to A. C.'s rule, and believe dissent- 
ing parties where they agree, were it but in this and that 
before of the real presence, it would work far toward the 
peace of Christendom. But the truth is, they pretend the 
peace of Christendom, but care no more for it, than as it may 
uphold at least, if not increase their own greatness. 
Punct. 4. My fourth instance shall be in the sacrament of baptism, 
and the things required as necessary to make it effectual to 
the receiver. They, in the common received doctrine of the 
church of Rome, are three ; the matter, the form, and the 
intention of the priest to do that which the church doth and 
intends he should do. Now all other divines, as well ancient 
as modern, and both the dissenting churches also, agree in 
the two former ; but many deny that the intention of the 
priest is necessary. Will A. C. hold his rule, " That it is 
safest to believe, in a controverted point of faith, that which 
the dissenting parties agree on, or which the adverse part 
confesses T If he will not, then why should he press that 
as a rule to direct others, which he will not be guided by 
himself? And if he will, then he must go professedly against 
the r council of Trent, which hath determined it as de fide, 
as a point of faith, that the intention of the priest is neces- 
sary to make the baptism true and valid. Though in the 
history 8 of that council, it is most apparent the bishops and 
other divines there could not tell what to answer to the 
bishop of Minors, a Neapolitan, who declared his judgment 
openly against it in the face of that council. 

unto thee." So the Church of England, r Concil. Trid. Sess. 7. Can. n. 

in the prayer after the receiving of the s Hist. Concil. Trid. lib. ii. p. 277. 

blessed sacrament. edit. Lat. Leyda?, 1622. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 259 

My fifth instance is, We say. and can easily prove, there Sect. 35. 
are divers errors, and some gross ones, in the Roman Missal. p unct . 5 . 
But I myself have heard some Jesuits confess, that in the 
Liturgy of the church of England there is no positive error ; 
and being pressed why then they refused to come to our 
churches, and serve God with us, they answered, they could 
not do it, because, though our Liturgy had in it nothing ill, 
yet it wanted a great deal of that which was good and was 
in their service. Now here let A. C. consider again, here 
is a plain concession of the adverse part ; and both agree 
there is nothing in our service but that which is holy and 
good. What will the Jesuit or A. C. say to this? If he 
forsake his ground, then it is not safest in point of divine 
worship to join faith, as the dissenting parties agree, or to 
stand to the adversaries' own confession : if he be so hardy as 
to maintain it, then the English Liturgy is better and safer to 
worship God by than the Roman mass; which yet, I pre- 
sume, A. 0. will not confess. 

VIII. In all these instances (the matter so falling out of 
itself, for the argument enforces it not) the thing is true ; 
but not therefore true, because the dissenting parties agree 
in it, or because the adverse part confesses it: yet lest the 
Jesuit, or A. C. for him, further to deceive the weak, should 
infer that this rule in so many instances is true, and false in 
none, but that one concerning baptism among the Donatists, 
and therefore the argument is true ut plerumque, as for the 
most, and that therefore it is the safest way to believe that 
which dissenting parties agree on ; I will lay down some 
other particulars of as great consequence as any can be in 
or about Christian religion. And if in them A. C. or any 
Jesuit dare say, that it is safest to believe as the dissenting 
parties agree, or as the adverse party confesses, I dare say 
he shall be an heretic in the highest degree, if not an infidel. 

And first, where the question was betwixt the orthodox Punct. i. 
and the Arian, whether the Son of God were consubstantiated 
with the Father : the orthodox said he was ojuoowo-to?, of 
the same substance ; the Arian came within a letter of the 
truth, and said he was o/uoiouVto?, of like substance : now he 
that says he is of the same substance, confesses he is of like 
substance and more, that is, identity of substance ; for iden- 

S 2 

260 Archbishop Laud against 

sect. 35. tity contains in it all degrees of likeness, and more : but he 
that acknowledges and believes that he is of like nature and 
no more, denies the identity. Therefore if this rule be true, 
" That it is safest to believe that in which the dissenting 
parties agree, or which the adverse part confesses," (which 
A.c. p.f>4,A. C. makes such great vaunt of,) then it is safest for a 
Christian to believe that Christ is of like nature with God 
the Father, and be free from belief that he is consubstantial 
with him; which yet is concluded by the 'council of Nice 
as necessary to salvation, and the contrary condemned for 
damnable heresy. 

Punct. 2. Secondly, in the question about the resurrection, between 
the orthodox and divers gross u heretics of old, and the 
anabaptists and libertines of late. For all or most of these 
dissenting parties agree, that there ought to be a resurrec- 
tion from sin to a state of grace ; and that this resurrection 
only is meant in divers passages of holy scripture, together 
with the life of the soul, which they are content to say is 
immortal; but x they utterly deny any resurrection of the 
body after death : so with them that article of the Creed is 
gone. Now then, if any man will guide his faith by this rule 
of A. C., the consent of dissenting parties, or the confession 
of the adverse part, he must deny the resurrection of the 
body from the grave to glory, and believe none but that of 
the soul from sin to grace, which the adversaries confess, and 
in which the dissenting parties agree. 

Punct. 3. Thirdly, in the great dispute of all others about the unity 
of the Godhead : all dissenting parties, Jew, Turk, and Chris- 
tian ; among Christians orthodox and antitrinitarian of old ; 
and in these latter times, orthodox and Socinian, (that horrid 
and mighty monster of all heresies ;) agree in this, that there 
is but one God. And I hope it is as necessary to believe 
one God our Father, as one church our mother. Now will 

t Concil. Nicaen. Fides vel Symboluin pectamus, &c. ut homo sciat animara 

in fine Concil. suam spiritum immortalem esse perpe- 

u Saturninus, Basilides, Carpocrates, tuo viventem in coelis, &c. Calv. In- 

Cerinthus, Valentinus, Cerdon, Apelles, structione advers. Libertinos, c. 22. 

&c. Tertull. de Prescript, advers. Hse- princ. Sunt etiam hodie libertini qui 

ret. c. 46, 48, 49, 5 1 , &c. earn irrident, et resurrectionem quae 

x Libertini rident spem omnem quam tractatur in scripturis, tantum ad ani- 

de resurrectione habemus, idque jam mas refenint. Pet. Mart. Loc. Com. 

nobis evenisse dicunt, quod adhuc ex- Class. 3. cap. 15. num. 4. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 261 

A. 0. say here it is safest believing as the dissenting parties Sect. 35. 
agree, or as the adverse parties confess, namely, that there is 
but one God, and so deny the Trinity, and therewith the Son 
of God the Saviour of the world ? 

Fourthly, in a point as fundamental in the faith as this ; Punct. 4- 
namely, whether Christ be true and very God. For which 
very point most of the y martyrs in the primitive church laid 
down their lives. The dissenting parties here were the ortho- 
dox believers, who affirm he is both God and man ; for so our 
Creed teaches us : and all those heretics, which affirm Christ 
to be man, but deny him to be God ; as the z Arians, and 
a Carpocratians, and b Cerinthus, and c Hebion, with others; 
and at this day the d Socinians. These dissenting parties 
agree fully and clearly that Christ is man. Well then, dare 
A. C. stick to his rule here, and say, it is safest for a Chris- 
tian, in this great point of faith, to govern his belief by " the 
consent of these dissenting parties," or " the confession and 
acknowledgment of the adverse party;" and so settle his 
belief that Christ is a mere man, and not God? I hope he 
dares not. So then this rule, " To resolve a man's faith into 
that in which the dissenting parties agree, or which the ad- 
verse part confesses," is as often false as true ; and false in as 
great, if not greater matters, than those in which it is true. 
And where it is true, A. C. and his fellows dare not govern 
themselves by it, the church of Rome condemning those 
things which that rule proves. And yet while they talk of 
certainty, nay, of infallibility, (less will not serve their turns,) 
they are driven to make use of such poor shifts as these, 
which have no certainty at all of truth in them, but infer 
falsehood and truth alike. And yet for this also men will be 
so weak or so wilful as to be seduced by them. 

IX. I told you e before, that the force of the preceding 
argument lies upon two things : the one expressed, and that 

y Heb. xi. 37. Cyrillus Alexandrinus b Tertul. ibid. 

male audivit, quod Ammonium mar- c Tertul. lib. de Carne Christi, 0.14. 
tyrem appellavit, quern constitit teme- d Si ad Jesu Christi respicias essen- 

ritatis poenas dedisse, et non necessitate tiam atque naturam, non nisi homi- 

negandi Christi in tormentis esse mor- nem eum fuisse constanter affirmamus. 

tuurn. Socr. Hist. Eccl. lib. vii. c. 14. Volkelius, lib. iii, de Religione Christia- 

z Optatus, lib. iv. cont. Parmen. na, c. i. 

a Tertul. lib. de Prescript, c. 48. e Sect. 35. num. II. fine. 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35. is past; the other upon the by, which comes now to be 
handled. And that is your continual poor outcry against 
us, " That we cannot be saved, because we are out of the 
church." Sure, if I thought I were out, I would get in as 
fast as I could. For we confess, as well as you, that " f out 
of the catholic church of Christ there is no salvation." But 
what do you mean by " out of the church T Sure out of the 
s Roman church. Why, but the Roman church and the 
church of England are but two distinct members of that 
catholic church which is spread over the face of the earth. 
Therefore Rome is not the house where the church dwells, 
but Rome itself, as well as other particular churches, dwells 
in this great universal house ; unless you will shut up the 
church in Rome, as the Donatist did in Afric. I come a 
little lower : Rome and other national churches are in this 
universal catholic house as so many h daughters, to whom 
(under Christ) the care of the household is committed by God 
the Father, and the catholic church the mother of all Chris- 
tians. Rome, as an elder sister, J but not the eldest neither, 

f Extra ecclesiam neminem vivificat 
Spiritus Sanctus. S. August. Epist. 50. 
ad finem. Field, de Eccles. lib. i. c. 13. 
Una est fidelium universalis ecclesia 
extra quara nullus salvatur. Cone. La- 
teran. Can. i. And yet even there, 
there is no mention of the Roman 

g And so doth A. C. too, " Out of 
the catholic Roman church there is no 
possibility of salvation." A. C. p. 65. 

h And daughter Sion was God's own 
phrase of old of the church, Isa. i. 8. o& 
yap TTfpl TUIV 'Iou5o/a>y TOVTOV rbv \6yov 
irpovirf(f)-r]vev ov5e irepl rys ^,iwv TTJS 
T($Aea>s, aAAa irepl TTJS e/c/cATjcr/as. Hyp- 
pol. Orat. de Consum. Mundi. Et 
omnis ecclesia virgo appellata est. S. 
August. Tract. 13 in S. Joh. 

i For Christ was to be preached to 
all nations, but that preaching was to 
begin at Jerusalem, Luke xxiv. 47, 
according to the prophecy, Mic. iv. 2. 
And the disciples were first called 
Christians at Antioch, Acts xi. 26. 
And therefore there was a church there 
before ever St. Peter came thence to 
settle one at Rome. Nor is it an 
opinion destitute either of authority or 
probability, that the faith of Christ was 
preached and the sacraments adminis- 

tered here in England, before any set- 
tlement of a church in Rome. For St. 
Gildas, the ancientest monument we 
have, and whom the Romanists them- 
selves reverence, says expressly, that the 
religion of Christ was received inBrittany, 
tempore (ut scimus) summo Tiberii Cae- 
saris, &c. in the latter time of Tibe- 
rius Caesar, Gildas de Excid. Brit. ; 
whereas St. Peter kept in Jewry long 
after Tiberius his death. Therefore 
the first conversion of this island to the 
faith was not by St. Peter ; nor from 
Rome, which was not then a church. 
Against this Rich. Broughton, in his 
Ecclesiastical History of Great Britain, 
centur. i. c. 8. . 4, says expressly, 
" That the protestants do freely ac- 
knowledge, that this clause of the time 
of Tiberius (tempore summo Tiberii 
CcBsaris) is wanting in other copies of 
that holy writer, arid namely, in that 
which was set forth by Pol. Virgil and 
others." Whereas first these words are 
express in a most fair and ancient ma- 
nuscript of Gildas, to be seen in sir 
Rob. Cotton's study, if any doubt it. 
Secondly, these words are as express in 
the printed edition of Gildas by Polyd. 
Virg., which edition was printed at 
London, anno 1525, and was never re- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 263 

had a great care committed unto her, in and from the prime Sect. 35. 
times of the church, and to her bishop in her : but at this 
time (to let pass many brawls that have formerly been in the 
house) England, and some other sisters of hers, are fallen out 
in the family. What then 2 Will the Father and the mother, 
God and the church, cast one child out because another is 
angry with it 2 Or when did Christ give that power to an 
elder sister, that she and her steward, the bishop there, 
should thrust out what child she pleased? especially when 
she herself is justly accused to have given the offence that is 
taken in the house. Or will not both Father and mother be 
sharper to her, for this unjust and unnatural usage of her 
younger sisters, but their dear children 2 Nay, is it not the 
next way to make them turn her out of doors, that is so 
unnatural to the rest 2 It is well for all Christian men and 
churches, that the Father and mother of them are not so 
cursed as some would have them. And salvation need not be 
feared of any dutiful child, nor outing from the church, be- 
cause this elder sister's faults are discovered in the house, 
and she grown frovvard for it against them that complained. 
But as children cry when they are waked out of sleep, so do 
you, and wrangle with all that come near you. And k Staple- 
ton confesses, " That ye were in a dead sleep and overmuch 
rest, when the protestants stole upon you. 1 ' Now if you can 
prove that Rome is properly the ! catholic church itself, (as 

printed since. Thirdly, these words are Jewel, Art. 4. Untruth 105. 
as express in the edition of Gildas by 1 For 1 am sure there is a Roman 
Joh. Joseline, printed at London also, church that is but a particular. Bel- 
anno 1568. And this falsehood of larm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. c. 4. And 
Broughton is so much the more foul, then you must either shew me another 
because he boasts (Prefat, to his Reader, Roman church which is the catholic, 
fine), "That he hath seen and dili- or you must shew how one and the 
gently perused the most and best monu- same Roman church is in different re- 
ments arid antiquities extant," &c. For spects or relations a particular, and yet 
if he did not see and peruse these, he is the catholic. Which is not yet done, 
vainly false to say it : if he did see And I do not say, a particular, and yet 
them, he is most maliciously false to a catholic; but a particular, and yet 
belie them. And lastly, whereas he the catholic church. For so you speak, 
says the protestants themselves con- For that which card. Peroii hath, that 
fess so much, I must believe he is as the Roman church is the catholic cans- 
false in this as in the former, till he ally, because it infuses universality 
name the protestants to me which do into all the whole body of the catholic 
confess it. And when he doth, he shall church, can, I think, satisfy no man 
gain but this from me, that those pro- that reads it ; that a particular should 
testants which confessed it were mis- infuse universality into an universal, 
taken. For the thing is mistaken. Peron's Reply, lib. iv. c. 9. 
k Return of Untruths upon Mr. 


Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 35, 36. you commonly call it,) speak out and prove it. In the mean 
time you may mark this too, if you will, and it seems you do ; 
for here you forget not what the bishop said to you. 

-[p. The lady which doubted (said the bishop to me) may 

be better saved in it than you. 

Sect. 36. 23, I said so indeed. Mark that too. Where yet by the 
way these words, " than you," do not suppose person only. 
For I will judge m no man that hath another master to stand 
or fall to. But they suppose calling and sufficiency in the 
person. " Than you," that is, " than any man of your call- 
ing and knowledge," of whom more is required. And then 
no question of the truth of this speech, " that that person 
may better be saved," that is, easier, " than you," than any 
man that knows so much of truth, and opposes against it, as 
you, and others of your calling do. How far you know truth, 
other men may judge by your proofs, and causes of know- 
ledge ; but how far you oppose truth known to you, that is 
within, and no man can know but God and yourselves. 
Howsoever, where the foundation is but held, " there for 
"ordinary men. it is not the vivacity of understanding, but 
the simplicity of believing, that makes them safe." For St, 
Augustine speaks there of men in the church ; and no man 
can be said simply to be out of the visible church, that is 
baptized, and holds the foundation. And as it is the sim- 
plicity of believing that makes them safe, yea, safest, so is it 
sometimes a quickness of understanding, that, loving itself 
and some by -respects too well, makes men take up an unsafe 

m Rom. xiv. 4. et excommunicationis gladio spirituali- 

n Caeteram turbam non intelligent ter occiditur. Stapl. Controv. i. q. 2. 

vivacitas, sed credendi simplicitas tutis- Art. 3. Notabil. 3. 
simam facit. S. August, cont. Fund. " The apostle pronounces some gone 

c. 4. 2wet 7roAAa/s rbt/ \abv rt aa- out, St. John ii. 19, from the fellowship 

ffaviffTov, Naz. Orat. 21.; omission of of sound believers, when as yet the 

inquiry many times saves the people. Christian religion they had not utterly 

o " Heretics in respect of the profes- cast off. In like sense and meaning, 

sion of sundry divine verities, which throughout all ages, heretics have justly 

they still retain in common with right been hated, as branches cut off from 

believers, &c. do still pertain to the the true vine ; yet only so far forth cut 

church." Field, de Eccles. lib. i. c. 14 off as the heresies have extended. For 

Potest aliquis ecclesiae membrum esse both heresy, and many other crimes 

secundum quid, qui tamen simpliciter which wholly sever from God do sever 

non est. Haereticus recedens a fide non from the church of God but in part 

dimittitur ut paganus, sed propter bap- only." Hooker's Eccles. Pol. b. v. . 68. 
tismi characterem punitur ut transfuga, 

Fisher the Jesuit. 265 

way about the faith. So that there is no question but many Sect. 36. 
were saved in corrupted times of the church, when their 
" Pleaders, unless they repented before death, were lost." 
And ( ) St. Augustine's rule will be true, that in all corruptions 
of the church, " there will ever be a difference between an 
heretic, and a plain well-meaning man that is misled and 
believes an heretic." Yet here let me add this for fuller 
expression : this must be understood of such leaders and 
heretics as r refuse to hear the church's instruction, or to use 
all the means they can to come to the knowledge of the 
truth. For else, if they do this, err they may, but heretics 
they are not, as is most manifest in s St. Cyprian's case of re- 
baptization. For here, though he were a main leader in that 
error, yet all the whole church grant him safe, and his * fol- 
lowers in danger of damnation. But if any man be a leader, 
and a teaching heretic, and will add u schism to heresy, and 
be obstinate in both ; he, without repentance, must needs be 
lost, while many that succeed him in the error only, without 
the obstinacy, may be saved : for they which are misled, and 
swayed with the current of the time, hold the same errors with 
their misleaders, yet not supinely, but with all sober dili- 
gence to find out the truth ; not pertinaciously, but with all 
readiness to submit to truth so soon as it shall be found ; not 
uncharitably, but retaining an internal communion with the 
whole visible church of Christ in the fundamental points of 
faith, and the performance of acts of charity ; not factiously, 
but with an earnest desire and a sincere endeavour (as their 
place and calling gives them means) for a perfect union and 
communion of all Christians in truth as well as peace. I say, 

P Ipsis magistris pereuntibus ; nisi t Donatistae vero (qui de Cypriani 

forte ante mortem resipuerint. Luth. authoritate sibi carnaliter blandiuntur, 

de Serv. Arbit. S. August, de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. i. 

Haeresiarchae plus peccant, quam alii c. 18.) nimium miseri, et, nisi se corri- 

qui haeresin aliquam sunt secuti. Sup- gant, a semetipsis omnino damnati, qui 

plem. Tho. 99. A. 4. C. hoc in tan to viro eligunt imitari. Ibid. 

<i Si mihi videretur unus et idem c. 19. 

haereticus et hsereticis credens homo, u Rei falsitatis (circa accusatum Gee- 
Ac. S. August, de Util. Cred. lib. i. cilianum) deprehensi Donatistae, perti- 
c. i. et Kpist. 162. ad Donatist. Episc. naci dissensione firmata, schisma in hae- 

r S. Matt, xviii. 1 7. Qui oppugnant resin veterunt. S. August, lib. de Haeres. 

regulam veritatis. S. August, lib. de haer. 69. Et tales, sub vocabulo Chris- 

Haeresibus, versus finem. tiano, doctrines resistant Christianas. S. 

s Cyprianus beatus, et martyr. S.Au- August, de Civ. Dei, lib. xviii. 0.51. 

gust, de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. i. c. 18. prin. 

ArcJibishop Laud against 

Sect. 36, 3 7. these, however misled, are neither heretics nor schismatics 
in the sight of God, and are therefore in a state of salvation. 
And were not this true divinity, it would go very hard with 
many poor Christian souls, that have been and are misled on 
all sides, in these and other distracted times of the church of 
Christ ; whereas, thus habituated in themselves, they are, by 
God's mercy, safe in the midst of those waves in which their 
misleaders perish. I pray you mark this ; and so, by God's 
grace, will I : for our x reckoning will be heavier, if we thus 
mislead on either side, than theirs that follow us. But I see 
I must look to myself, for you are secure ; for, 

Jp, Dr. White (said I) hath secured me, that none of our 
errors be damnable, so long as we hold them not against 
our conscience. And I hold none against my conscience. 
Sect. 37. 33. I. It seems then you have two securities, Dr. White's 
assertion and your conscience. What assurance Dr. White 
gave you I cannot tell of myself; nor, as things stand, may 
I rest upon your relation. It may be you use him no better 
than you do me. And sure it is so ; for I have since spoken 
with Dr. White, the late reverend bishop of Ely, and he 
avows this, and no other answer. He was asked, in the 
conference between you, whether popish errors were funda- 
mental. To this he gave an answer, by distinction of the per- 
sons which held and professed the errors ; namely, that the 
errors were fundamental reductive, by a reducement, if they 
which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them, hav- 
ing sufficient means to be better informed. Nay, further, 
that they were materially, and in the very kind and nature 
of them, leaven, dross, hay, and stubbleY. Yet he thought 
withal that such as were misled by education, or long custom, 
or overvaluing the sovereignty of the Roman church, and did 
in simplicity of heart embrace them, might by their general 
repentance and faith in the merit of Christ, attended with 
charity and other virtues, find mercy at God's hands. But 
that he should say signanter, and expressly, That none either 

x Qui etsi ipsi postmodum ad eccle- pace perierunt, quorum animae in die 

siam redeunt, restituere taraen eos, et judicii de ipsorum manibus expetentur, 

secum revocare non possunt, qui ab qui perditionis authores et duces exsti- 

iis seducti sunt, et foris morte prreventi terurit. S. Cypr. lib. ii. epist. i< 
extra ecclesiam sine communicatione ct y i Cor. iii. 12. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 267 

of yours or your fellows' errors were damnable, so long as you Sect. 37. 
hold them not against conscience, that he utterly disavows. 
You delivered nothing to extort such a confession from him : 
and for yourself, he could observe but small love of truth, few 
signs of grace in you, (as he told me :) yet he will not presume 
to judge you, or your salvation; it is the z word of Christ 
that must judge you at the latter day. For your conscience, 
you are the happier in your error that you hold nothing 
against it ; especially if you speak not against it while you 
say so. But this no man can know but yourself; *for no 
man 'knows the thoughts of a man, but the spirit of a man that is 
within him : to which I leave you. 

II. To this A. C. replies. And first he grants, " that Dr. A. C. p. 67. 
White did not signanter and expressly say these precise 
words. So then here is his plain confession : " not these precise 
words." Secondly, he saith, " that neither did Dr. White sig- 
nanter and expressly make the answer above mentioned." But 
to this I can make no answer, since I was not present at the 
first or second conference. Thirdly, he saith, " that the reason 
which moved the Jesuit to say Dr. White had secured him, 
was because the said doctor had granted, in his first confer- 
ence with the Jesuit, these things following : first, that there 
must be one or other church continually visible." Though Dr. 
White, late bishop of Ely, was more able to answer for him- 
self, yet since he is now dead, and is thus drawn into this 
discourse, I shall, as well as I can, do him the right which 
his learning and pains for the church deserved. And to this 
first, I grant, as well as he, " that there must be some one 
church or other continually visible :" or that the militant 
church of Christ must always be visible in some particulars, 
or particular at least, (express it as you please.) For if this 
be not so, then there may be a time in which there shall not 
anywhere be a visible profession of the name of Christ ; 
which is contrary to the whole scope and promise of the 

III. Well, what then ? Why then A. C. adds, " that Dr. A. C. p. 67. 
White confessed, that this visible church had in all ages 
taught that unchanged faith of Christ in all points funda- 
mental." Dr. White had reason to say that the visible church 

1 Joh. xii. 48. a i Cor. ii. n. 

268 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 37. taught so ; but that this or that particular visible church did 
so teach, sure Dr. White affirmed not, unless in case the 
whole visible church of Christ were reduced to one particular 

A.C.p.6;. IV. But suppose this; what then? Why then A. C. tells 
us, that " Dr. White being urged to assign such a church, ex- 
pressly granted he could assign none different from the Roman, 
which held, in all ages, all points fundamental." Now here I 
would fain know what A. C. means by " a church different from 
the Roman." For if he mean different in place, it is easy to 
affirm the Greek church, which (as hath b before been proved) 
hath ever held and taught the foundation in the midst of all 
her pressures. And if he mean different in doctrinal things, 
and those about the faith, he cannot assign the church of 
Rome for holding them in all ages. But if he mean different 
in the foundation itself, the Creed, then his urging to assign a 
church is void, be it Rome, or any other : for if any other 
church shall thus differ from Rome, or Rome from itself, as 
to deny this foundation, it doth not, it cannot remain a differ- 
ing church, sed transit in non ecclesiam, but passes away into 
no church, upon the denial of the Creed. 

V. Now what A. C. means, he expresses not, nor can I 
tell ; but I may, peradventure, guess near it, by that which 

A. C. p. 67. out of these premises he would infer. For hence, he tells us, 
" he gathered, that Dr. White's opinion was, that the Roman 
church held and taught in all ages unchanged faith in all 
fundamental points, and did not in any age err in any point 
fundamental." This is very well; for A. C. confesses, he did 
but gather that this was Doctor White's opinion. And what 
if he gathered that which grew not there, nor thence ? For 
suppose all the premises true, yet no cart-rope can draw this 
conclusion out of them : and then all A. C.'s labour is lost. 
For grant some one church or other must still be visible; 
and grant that this visible church held all fundamentals of 
the faith in all ages ; and grant again, that Dr. White could 
not assign any church differing from the Roman that did 
this ; yet this will not follow, that therefore the Roman did it : 
and that because there is no more in the conclusion than in 

A. C. p. 6 7 . the premises. For A. C.'s conclusion is, " That in Dr. White's 

b Sect. 9. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 269 

opinion, the Roman church held and taught in all ages un- Sect. 37. 
changed faith in all fundamental points. 11 And so far, perhaps, 
the conclusion may stand, taking fundamental points in their 
literal sense, as they are expressed in creeds and approved 
councils. But then he adds : " and did not, in any age, err 
in any point fundamental." Now this can never follow out of 
the premises before laid down. For say, some one church or 
other may still be visible, and that visible church hold all 
fundamental points in all ages, and no man be able to name 
another church different from the church of Rome, that hath 
done this ; yet it follows not therefore, " That the church of 
Rome did not err, in any age, in any point fundamental." 
For a church may hold the fundamental point literally, and, 
as long as it stays there, be without control; and yet err 
grossly, dangerously, nay damnably, in the exposition of it. 
And this is the church of Rome's case. For most true it is, 
it hath in all ages maintained the faith unchanged in the ex- 
pression of the articles themselves ; but it hath, in the expo- 
sition both of creeds and councils, quite changed and lost the 
sense and the meaning of some of them. So the faith is in 
many things changed, both for life and belief, and yet seems 
the same. Now that which deceives the world is, that 
because the bark is the same, men think this old decayed 
tree is as sound as it was at first, and not weather-beaten in 
any age. But when they can make me believe that painting 
is true beauty, I will believe too, that Rome is not only sound, 
but beautiful. 

VI. But A. 0. goes on, and tells us, " That hereupon theA.C. p. 67. 
Jesuit asked, whether errors in points not fundamental were 
damnable: and that Dr. White answered, They were not, 
unless they were held against conscience." It is true, that 
error in points not fundamental is the more damnable, the 
more it is held against conscience : but it is true too, that 
error in points not fundamental may be damnable to some 
men, though they hold it not against their conscience. As 
namely, when they hold an error in some dangerous points, 
which grate upon the foundation ; and yet will neither seek 
the means to know the truth, nor accept and believe truth 
when it is known ; especially being men able to judge, which, 
I fear, is the case of too many at this day in the Roman 

270 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 37. church. Out of all which, A. C. tells us, " the Jesuit collected, 
A. C. p. 68. that Dr. Whitens opinion was, that the Roman church held 
all points fundamental, and only erred in points not funda- 
mental ; which he accounted not damnable, so long as he did 
not hold them against his conscience. And that thereupon 
he said Dr. White had secured him, since he held no faith 
different from the Roman, nor contrary to his conscience." 
Here again we have but A. C.'s and the Jesuits collection ; 
but if the Jesuit or A. C. will collect amiss, who can help it ? 

VII. I have spoken before in this very paragraph to all 
the passages of A. C., as supposing them true, and set down 
what is to be answered to them in case they prove so. But 
now it is most apparent by Dr. White's answer, set down 
before c at large, that he never said, that the church of Rome 
erred only in points not fundamental, as A. C. would have it ; 
but that he said the contrary ; namely, " That some errors of 
the church were fundamental reductive, by a reducement, if 
they which embraced them did pertinaciously adhere to them, 
having sufficient means of information." And again expressly, 
" That he did not say, that none were damnable, so long as 
they were not held against conscience." Now where is A. C.'s 
collection ? For if a Jesuit, or any other, may collect proposi- 
tions which are not granted him, nay, contrary to those 
which are granted him, he may infer what he please. And 
he is much to blame, that will not infer a strong conclusion 
for himself, that may frame his own premises, say his adver- 
sary what he will. And just so doth A. C. bring in his con- 
clusion, to secure himself of salvation, " because he holds no 
faith but the Roman, nor that contrary to his conscience :" 
presupposing it granted, that the church of Rome errs only in 
not fundamentals, and such errors not damnable, which is 
A. C. p. 67. absolutely and clearly denied by Dr. White. To this A. C. 
says nothing, but " that Dr. White did not give this answer 
at the conference." I was not present at the conference 
between them, so to that I can say nothing as a witness : 
but I think all that knew Dr. White will believe his affirma- 
tion as soon as the Jesuit's, to say no more. And whereas 
A. C. p. 67. A. C. refers to the relation of the conference between Dr. 

c Sect. 37. num. I. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 271 

White and Mr. Fisher, most true it is, there d Dr. White is Sect. 37. 
charged to have made the answer twice. But all this rests 
upon the credit of A. C. only; (for e he is said to have made 
that relation too, as well as this :) and against his credit I 
must engage Dr. White's, who hath avowed another answer, 
as f before is set down. 

VIII. And since A. C. relates to that conference, which, 
it seems, he makes some good account of, I shall here, once 
for all, take occasion to assure the reader, that most of the 
points of moment in that conference with Dr. White are 
repeated again and again, and urged in this conference, or 
the relation of A. C., and are here answered by me. For 
instance : (i) In the relation of the first conference, the Jesuit 
takes on him to prove the unwritten word of God out of 
1 Thes. ii., page 15. And so he doth in the relation of this 
conference with me, page 50. (2) In the first, he stands upon 
it, " That the protestants, upon their principles, cannot hold 
that all fundamental points of faith are contained in the 
Creed," page 19. And so he doth in this, page 46. (3) In 
the first, he would fain, through Master Rogers his sides, 
wound the church of England, as if she were unsettled in the 
article of Christ's descent into hell, page 2 1 . And he endea- 
vours the same in this, page 46. (4) In the first, he is very 
earnest to prove, " That the schism was made by the protest- 
ants," page 23. And he is as earnest for it in this, page 55. 
(5) In the first, he lays it for a ground, " That corruption of 
manners is no just cause of separation from faith or church, 11 
page 24. And the same ground he lays in this, p. 55. (6) In 
the first, he will have it, " That the Holy Ghost gives con- 
tinual and infallible assistance to the church," page 24. And 
just so will he have it in this, page 53. (7) In the first, he 
makes much ado about the " erring of the Greek church," 
page 28. And as much makes he in this, page 44. (8) In the 
first, he makes a great noise about the place in St. Augustine, 
Ferendus est disputator errans, &c., pages 18. and 24. And 
so doth he here also, page 45. (9) In the first, he would make 
his proselytes believe, that he and his cause have mighty ad- 

d A. C. in his relation of that con- e For so it is said in the title page, 
ference, p. 26. by A. C. 

f Sect. 37. num. I. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 37. vantage by that sentence of St. Bernard, " It is intolerable 
pride," and that of St. Augustine, " It is insolent madness, 
to oppose the doctrine or practice of the catholic church," 
page 25. And twice he is at the same art in this, pages 56. 
and 73. (10) In the first he tells us, that s Calvin confesses, 
" that in the reformation there was a departure from the 
whole world," page 25. And though I conceive Calvin spake 
this but of the Roman world, and of no voluntary, but a forced 
departure, and wrote this to Melancthon, to work unity among 
the reformers, not any way to blast the reformation ; yet we 
must hear of it again in this, page 56. (n) But over and 
above the rest, one place with his own gloss upon it pleases 
him extremely ; it is out of Athanasius his Creed : " That 
whosoever doth not hold it entire ; that is, saith he, " in all 
points, and inviolate, that is, saith he, " in the true, unchanged, 
and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the pastors of his 
catholic church, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." 
This he hath almost verbatim in the first, page 20. And in 
the epistle of the publisher of that relation to the reader, 
under the name of W. I., and then again the very same in 
this, if not with some more disadvantage to himself, page 70. 
And perhaps (had I leisure to search after them) more points 
than these. Now the reasons which moved me to set down 
these particulars thus distinctly are two. The one, that 
whereas the h Jesuit affirms, that in a second conference all 
the speech was about particular matters, and little or nothing 
about the main and great general point of a continual, infal- 
lible, visible church, in which that lady required satisfaction, 
and that therefore this third conference was held ; it may 
hereby appear that the most material both points and proofs 
are upon the matter the very same in all the three conferences, 
though little be related of the second conference by A. C., as 
appears in the preface of the publisher, W. I., to the reader. 
So this tends to nothing but ostentation and show. The 
other is, that whereas the men boast so much of their cause 
and their ability to defend it ; it cannot but appear by this, 
and their handling of other points in divinity, that they labour 

S Postquam discessionem a toto h In the beginning of the conference 
mundo facere coacti siunus. Calv. set out by A. C. 
Epist. 141. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 273 

indeed, but no otherwise than like a horse in a mill, round Sect. 37,38. 
about in the same circle, no further at night than at noon ; 
the same thing over and over again ; from Tu es Petrus to 
Pasce oves; from Thou art Peter, to Do thou feed my sheep ; and 
back again the same way. 

$. The lady asked, whether she might be saved in the 
protestant faith? Upon my soul, (said the bishop,) you 
may. Upon my soul, (said I,) there is but one saving 
faith, and that is the Roman. 

33. I. So (it seems) I was confident for the faith professed Sect. 38. 
in the church of England, else I would not have taken the 
salvation of another upon my soul. And sure I had reason 
of this my confidence. For to believe the scripture and the 
creeds; to believe these in the sense of the ancient primitive 
church; to receive the four great general councils, so much 
magnified by antiquity ; to believe all points of doctrine ge- 
nerally received as fundamental in the church of Christ, is a 
faith, in which to live and die cannot but give salvation. And 
therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my 
soul upon that faith. Besides, in all the points of doctrine 
that are controverted between us, I would fain see any one 
point maintained by the church of England that can be proved 
to depart from the foundation. You have many dangerous 
errors about the very foundation, in that which you call the 
Roman faith ; but there I leave you to look to your own soul 
and theirs whom you seduce. Yet this is true too, that there 
is but one saving faith. But then every thing which you call 
de fide, of the faith, because some council or other hath de- 
fined it, is not such a breach from that one saving faith, as 
that he which expressly believes it not, nay, as that he 
which believes the contrary, is excluded from salvation, so his 
i disobedience therewhile offer no violence to the peace of the 
church, nor the charity which ought to be among Christians. 
And k Bellarmine is forced to grant this; " There are many 
things de fide, which are not absolutely necessary to salva- 
tion." * Therefore there is a latitude in the faith, especially 

i Sect. 32. num. V. larm. de Eccles. Milit. lib. iii. c. 14. . 

k Multa sunt de fide, quae non sunt Quinto, si esset. 
absolute necessaria ad salutem. Bel- l Wald. Doct. Fjd. lib. ii. Ar. i. . 23. 

274 ArMishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. in reference to different men's salvation. To set m bounds to 
this, and strictly to define it for particular men, just thus far 
you must believe in every particular, or incur damnation, is 
no work for my pen. These two things I am sure of. One, 
that your peremptory establishing of so many things, that are 
remote deductions from the foundation, to be believed as 
matters of faith necessary to salvation, hath, with other errors, 
lost the peace and unity of the church, for which you will one 
day answer. And the other, that you of Rome are gone fur- 
ther from the foundation of this one saving faith than can ever 
be proved we of the church of England have done. 

II. But here A. C. bestirs himself, finding that he is come 
upon the point which is indeed most considerable. And first 

A.C. p. 68. he answers, " That it is "not sufficient to beget a confidence 
in this case, to say we believe the scriptures and the Creeds 
in the same sense which the ancient primitive church believed 
them, 11 &c. Most true, if we only say and do not believe. 
And let them which believe not while they say they do, look 
to it on all sides ; for on all sides I doubt not, but such there 
are. But if we do say it, you are bound in charity to believe 
us, (unless you can prove the contrary ;) for I know no other 
proof to men of any point of faith, but confession of it, and 
subscription to it. And for these particulars we have made 
the one and done the other. So it is no bare saying, but you 
have all the proof that can be had, or that ever any church 
required ; for how far that belief or any other sinks into a 
man's heart, is for none to judge but God. 

A.C. p. 68. HI. Next, A. 0. answers, " That if to say this be a suffi- 
cient cause of confidence, he marvels why I make such dif- 
ficulty to be confident of the salvation of Roman catholics, 
who believe all this in a far better manner than protestants 

m Sect. 38. num. VIII. question made or suspicion had of any 

n Pope Pelagius the Second thought man's faith that professed that faith 

it was sufficient. For when the bishops which the apostles delivered, as it is ex- 

of Istria deserted his communion in plicated by those great councils. And 

causa trium capitulorum, he first gives yet now with A. C. it is not sufficient, 

them an account of his faith, that he Or else he holds the faith of our Lord 

embraced that faith which the apostles Jesus Christ in such respect of persons, 

had delivered and the four synods ex- (contrary to the apostle's rule, James 

plicated. And then he adds: Ubi ergo ii. 12,) as that profession of it which 

de fidei firmitate nulla vobis potent was sufficient for pope Pelagius, shall 

quaestio vel suspicio generari, &c. Con- not be sufficient for the poor protest- 

cil. torn. iv. p. 473. edit. Paris. So then ants, 
that pope thought there could be no 

Fisher the Jesuit. 


do." Truly, to say this, is not a sufficient cause, but to say Sect. 38. 
and believe it, is. And to take off A. C.'s wonder why I 
make difficulty, great difficulty, of the salvation of Roman 
catholics, who, he says, u believe all this, and in a far better 
manner than protestants do," I must be bold to tell him, 
that Romanists are so far from believing this in a better man- 
ner than we do, that, under favour, they believe not part of 
this at all. And this is most manifest ; for the Romanists 
dare not believe but as the Roman church believes : and the 
Roman church at this day doth not believe the scripture and 
the Creeds in the sense in the which the ancient primitive 
church received them ; for the primitive church never inter- 
preted Christ's descent into hell to be no lower than limbus 
patrum ; nor did it acknowledge a purgatory in a side-part 
of hell : nor did it ever interpret away half the sacrament 
from Christ's own institution ; which to break, Stapleton con- 
fesses expressly, is a damnable error : nor make the intention 
of the priest of the essence of baptism ; nor believe worship 
due to images ; nor dream of a transubstantiation, which the 
learned of the Roman party dare not understand properly for 
a change of one substance into another ; for then they must 
grant that Christ's real and true body is made of the bread, 
and the bread changed into it, which is properly transubstan- 
tiation : nor yet can they express it in a credible way, as 
appears by PBellarmine's struggle about it, which yet in the 

o Stapleton's Return of Untruths 
upon Bishop Jewel, Art. 2. Untruth 49. 
fol. 44. 

P Est totalis conversio substantiae pa- 
nis et vini in corpus et sanguinem Do- 
mini. Bellarm. de Euchar. lib. iii. c. 18. 
. i. Substantial conversio, seu tran- 
substantiatio, sicut ecclesia appellat. 
Greg, de Valen. torn. iv. Disp. 6. q. 3. 
punct. 3. Now you shall see what 
stuff Bellarmine makes of this. Con- 
versio panis in corpus Domini, nee est 
productiva, nee conservativa, sed ad- 
ductiva. Nam corpus Domini praeex- 
istit ante conversionern, sed non sub 
speciebus panis. Conversio igitur non 
facit, ut corpus Christi simpliciter esse 
incipiat, sed ut incipiat esse sub spe- 
ciebus panis, &c. Bellarm. de Euchar. 
lib. iii. c. 1 8. . Ex his colligimus. So 
upon the whole matter, there shall be 
a total conversion of the bread into the 

body of Christ; and yet there shall be 
no conversion at all, but a bringing of 
the body of Christ, before preexistent, 
to be now under the species of bread, 
where before it was not. Now this is 
merely translocation, it is not transub- 
stantiation ; and I would have Bellar- 
mine, or any Jesuit for him, shew 
where conversio adductiva is read in 
any good author. But when Bellar- 
mine comes to the recognition of his 
works, upon this place he tells us, that 
some excepted against him, as if this 
were translocation, rather than trail- 
substantiation. So in this charge upon 
him I am not alone. And fain would 
he shift off this, but it will not be. But 
while he is at it he runs into two pretty 
errors, beside the main one; the first 
is, that the body of Christ in the sacra- 
ment begins to be, non ut in loco, sed 
ut substantia sub accidentibus. Now 

276 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. end cannot be or be called tramubstantiation, and is that 
which at this day is a q scandal to both Jew and Gentile, and 
the church of God. 

A. C. p. 69. IV. For alHhis, A. C. goes on, and tells us, " That they (of 
Rome) cannot be proved to depart from the foundation so 
much as protestants do." So then we have at last a confes- 
sion here that they may be proved to depart from the founda- 
tion, though not so much or so far as the protestants do. 
I do not mean to answer this, and prove that the Romanists 
do depart as far or further from the foundation than the pro- 
testants, for then A. C. would take me at the same lift, and 
say I granted a departure too. Briefly therefore I have 
named here more instances than one ; in some of which they 
have erred in the foundation, or very near it. But for the 
church of England, let A. C. instance, if he can, in any one 
point in which she hath departed from the foundation. Well, 

A.C. p. 69. that A. C. will do ; for he says, " The protestants err against 
the foundation by denying infallible authority to a general 
council, for that is in effect to deny infallibility to the whole 
catholic church." r No, there is a great deal of difference 
between a general council and the whole body of the church. 
And when a general council errs, as the second of Ephesus 

let Bellarmine, or A. C. for him, give this gross opinion was but confirmed in 
me any one instance, that a bodily sub- the council of Lateran : it had got some 
stance tinder accidents is or can be any footing in the church the two blind 
where, and not ut in loco, as in some ages before. For Berengarius was made 
place, and he says somewhat. The recant in such terms as the Romanists 
second is, that some Fathers and others are put to their shifts to excuse. Bel- 
seem (he says, but I see it not) to ap- larm. de Euchar. lib. iii. c. 24. . Quar- 
prove of his manner of speech of con- turn argumentum. For he says ex- 
version by adduction. And he tells us pressly, Corpus Christi posse in sacra- 
for this, that Bonaventure says ex- mento sensualiter manibus sacerdotum 
pressly, In transubstantiatione fit, ut tractari, et frangi, et fidelium dentibus 
quod erat alicubi, sine sui mutatione atteri. Deer, de Consecratione, par. 3. 
sit alibi. Now first, here is nothing Dist. 2. C. Ego Berengarius. Now this 
that can be drawn with cart-ropes to recantation was made about the year 
prove conversion by adduction. For if 1050; and the council of Lateran was 
there be conversion, there must be in the year 1215. Between this gross 
change : and this is sine mutatione sui. recantation of Berengarius and that 
And secondly, I would fain know how council, the great learned physician and 
a body that is alicubi shall be alibi, philosopher Averroes lived, and took 
without change of itself, and yet that scandal at the whole body of Christian 
this shall be rather transubstantiation religion for this. And thus he saith ; 
than translocation ; besides, it is a Mundum peragravi, &c. et non vidi 
phrase of very sour consequence, sectam deteriorem aut magis fatuam 
(should a man squeeze it,) which Bel- Christiana, quia Deum, quern colunt, 
lannirie uses there even in his Recogni- dentibus devorant. Espencaeus de Eu- 
tion; Panis transit in corpus Christi. char. Adoratione, lib. iv. c. 3. 
q A scandal, and a grievous one. For r Sect. ^3. consid. 4. num. I. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 277 

did, out of that great catholic body another may be gathered, Sect. 38. 
as was then that of Chalcedon, to do the truth of Christ that 
right which belongs unto it. Now if it were all one in effect 
to say a general council can erf, and that the whole church 
can err, there were no remedy left against a general council 
erring; s which is your case now at Rome, and which hath 
thrust the church of Christ into more straits than any one 
thing besides. But I know where you would be. A general 
council is infallible, if it be confirmed by the pope ; and the 
pope he is infallible, else he could not make the council so. 
And they which deny the council's infallibility deny the 
pope's, which confirms it. And then indeed the protestants 
depart a mighty way from this great foundation of faith, the 
pope's infallibility. But God be thanked this is only from 
the foundation of the present Roman faith, (as A. C. and the A. C. p. 68. 
Jesuit call it,) not from any foundation of the Christian faith, 
to which this infallibility was ever a stranger. 

V. From answering, A.C. falls to asking questions. I think 
he means to try whether he can win any thing upon me by 
the cunning way, a multis interrogationibus simul, by asking 
many things at once, to see if any one may make me slip into 
a confession inconvenient. And first he asks, "How pro- A. C. p. 69. 
testants, admitting no infallible rule of faith but scripture 
only, can be infallibly sure that they believe the same entire 
scripture and Creed, and the four first general councils, and 
in the same incorrupted sense in which the primitive church 
believed f It is just as I said ; here are many questions in 
one, and I might easily be caught, would I answer in gross to 
them all together: but I shall go more distinctly to work. 
Well then, I admit no ordinary rule left in the church of 
divine and infallible verity, and so of faith, but the scripture. 
And I believe the entire scripture, first, by the tradition of 
the church, then by all other credible motives, as is before 
expressed, and last of all by the light which shines in the 
scripture itself, kindled in believers by the Spirit of God. 
Then I believe the entire scripture infallibly, and by a divine 
infallibility am sure of my object : then am I as sure of my 
believing, which is the act of my faith conversant about this 
object ; for no man believes, but he must needs know in him- 

* Sect. 33. consid. 7. num. IV. 

278 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. self whether he believes or no, and wherein and how far he 
doubts. Then I am infallibly assured of my creed, the tradi- 
tion of the church inducing and the scripture confirming it. 
And I believe both scripture and Creed in the same uncor- 
rupted sense which the primitive church believed them ; and 
am sure that I do so believe them, because I cross not in my 
belief any thing delivered by the primitive church ; and this 
again I am sure of, because I take the belief of the primitive 
church as it is expressed and delivered by the councils and 
ancient Fathers of those times. As for the four councils, if 
A. C. ask how I have them, that is, their true and entire 
copies, I answer, I have them from the church tradition only ; 
and that is assurance enough for this : and so I am fully as 
sure as A. C. is, or can make me. But if he ask how I know 
infallibly I believe them in their true and uncorrupted sense, 
then I answer, there is no man of knowledge but he can 
understand the plain and simple decision expressed in the 
canon of the council, where it is necessary to salvation. And 
for all other debates in the councils, or decisions of it in 
things of less moment, it is not necessary that I or any man 
else have infallible assurance of them ; though I think it is 
possible to attain, even in these things, as much infallible 
assurance of the uncorrupted sense of them as A. C. or any 
other Jesuits have. 

A. C. p. 69. VI. A. C. asks again, " What text of scripture tells that 
protestants now living do believe all this, or that all this is 
expressed in those particular Bibles, or in the writings of 
the Fathers and councils, which now are in the protestants 1 
hands f Good God ! whither will not a strong bias carry even 
a learned judgment ! Why, what consequence is there in this ? 
The scripture now is the only ordinary infallible rule of divine 
faith ; therefore the protestants cannot believe all this before 
mentioned, unless a particular text of scripture can be shewed 
for it : is it not made plain before how we believe scripture to 
be scripture, and by divine and infallible faith too, and yet 
we can shew no particular text for it ? Beside, were a text of 
scripture necessary, yet that is for the object and the thing 
which we are to believe, not for the act of our believing, 
which is merely from God, and in ourselves, and for which 
we cannot have any warrant from or by scripture more than 

Fisher the Jesuit. 279 

that we ought to believe, but not that we in our particular Sect. 38. 
do believe. The rest of the question is far more inconsequent, 
" Whether all this be expressed in the Bibles which are in 
protestants' hands?" For first, we have the same Bibles in 
our hands which the Romanists have in theirs ; therefore, 
either we are infallibly sure of ours, or they are not infallibly 
sure of theirs; for we have the same book, and delivered 
unto us by the same hands ; and all is expressed in ours that 
is in theirs. Nor is it of moment in this argument that we 
account more apocryphal than they do ; for I will acknow- 
ledge every fundamental point of faith as proveable out of 
the canon, as we account it, as if the apocryphal were added 
unto it. Secondly, A. C. is here extremely out of himself 
and his way, for his question is, " Whether all this be ex- 
pressed in the Bibles which we have?" All this? All what? 
Why, before there is mention of the four general councils ; 
and in this question here is mention of the writings of the 
Fathers and the councils. And what ! will A. C. look that 
we must shew a text of scripture for all this, and an express 
one too ! I thought, and do so still, it is enough to ground 
belief upon * necessary consequence out of scripture, as well as 
upon express text. And this I am sure of, that neither I 
nor any man else is bound to believe any thing as necessary 
to salvation, be it found in councils, or Fathers, or where you 
will, u if it be contrary to express scripture, or necessary con- 
sequence from it. And for the copies of the councils and 
Fathers which are in our hands, they are the same that are 
in the hands of the Romanists, and delivered to posterity by 
tradition of the church, which is abundantly sufficient to war- 
rant that. So we are as infallibly sure of this as it is possible 
for any of you to be ; nay, are we not more sure ? for we 

t Non potest aliquid certum esse cer- lib. iii. c. 14. Testimonia diviria in 

titudine fidei, nisi aut immediate conti- fundamento ponenda sunt. S. Aug. de 

neatur in verbo Dei, aut ex verbo Dei Civ. Dei, lib. xx. c. I. Quia principia 

per evidentem consequentiam deduca- hujus doctrinae per revelationem ha- 

tur. Bellarm. de Justif. lib. iii. c. 8. bentur, &c. Thorn, p. i.q. i. A. 8. ad 2. 

.2. Solis scripturarum libris canonicis didici 

u Nee ego Nicaenum, nee tu debes hunc honorem deferre, ut nullum au- 

Ariminense tanquam praejudicaturus thorem eorum in scribendo errasse ali- 

proferre concilium. Nee ego hujus au- quid firmissime credam. Alios autem 

thoritate, nee tu illius detineris. Scrip- ita lego, ut quantalibet sanctitate, doc- 

turarum authoritatibus, &c. res cum trinaque praepolleant, non ideo verum 

re, causa cum causa, ratio cum ratione putem, quod ipsi ita senserunt, vel 

concerted S. Aug. cont. Maximinum, scripserunt. S. August. Epist. 19. 


280 ArchUshop Laud against 

Sect. 38. have used no index expurgatorius upon the writings of the 
Fathers x , as you have done : so that posterity hereafter 
must thank us for true copies both of councils and Fathers, 
and not you. 

A. C. p. 69. VII. But A. C. goes on, and asks still, " Whether pro- 
testants be infallibly sure that they rightly understand the 
sense of all which is expressed in their books, according to that 
which was understood by the primitive church, and the Fathers 
which were present at the four first general councils ?" A. C. 
may ask everlastingly, if he will ask the same over and over 
again. For, I pray, wherein doth this differ from his first Y ques- 
tion, save only that here scripture is not named ? For there 
the question was of our assurance of the incorrupted sense : 
and therefore thither I refer you for answer, with this, that it 
is not required, either of us or of them, that there should be 
had an infallible assurance that we rightly understand the 
sense of all that is expressed in our books. And I think I 
may believe without sin that there are many things expressed 
in these books (for they are theirs as well as ours) which 
A. C. and his fellows have not infallible assurance that they 
rightly understand in the sense of the primitive church, or the 
Fathers present in those councils. And if they say, Yes, they 
can, because when a difficulty crosses them, they believe them 
in the church's sense ; yet that dry shift will not serve. For 
belief of them in the church's sense is an implicit faith ; but 
it works nothing distinctly upon the understanding. For by 
an implicit faith no man can be infallibly assured that he 
doth rightly understand the sense, (which is A. C.'s question,) 
whatever perhaps he may rightly believe. And an implicit 
faith and an infallible understanding of the same thing under 
the same considerations, cannot possibly stand together in 
the same man at the same time. 

A.C. P .6 9 . VIII. A. C. hath not done asking yet; but he would 
further know, " Whether protestants can be infallibly sure, 
that all and only those points which protestants account fun- 
damental, and necessary to be expressly known by all, were 
so accounted by the primitive church T Truly unity, in the 
faith is very considerable in the church. And in this the 

* Sixtus Senens. in Epist. ad Pium Quintum. y Sect. 38. num. V. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 281 

protestants agree, and as uniformly as you, and have as infal- Sect. 38. 
lible assurance as you can have of all points which they 
account fundamental, yea, and of all which were so accounted 
by the primitive church. And these are but the Creed, and 
some few, and those immediate deductions from it. And 
z Tertullian and a Rufinus upon the very clause of the catholic 
church, to decipher it, make a recital only of the fundamental 
points of faith. And for the first of these, the Creed, you see 
what the sense of the primitive church was by that famous 
and known place of b Irenaeus ; where, after he had recited 
the Creed as the epitome or brief of the faith, he adds, " That 
none of the governors of the church, be they never so potent 
to express themselves, can say alia ab his, other things from 
these : nor none so weak in expression as to diminish this 
tradition. For since the faith is one and the same, he that 
can say much of it says no more than he ought ; nor doth 
he diminish it that can say but little.'" And in this the pro- 
testants all agree. And for the second, the immediate 
deductions, they are not formally fundamental for all men, but 
for such c as are able to make or understand them. And for 
others, it is enough if they do not obstinately or schismati- 
cally refuse them, after they are once revealed. Indeed you 
account many things fundamental, which were never so 
accounted in any sense by the primitive church ; such as are 
all the decrees of general councils, which may be all true, but 
can never be all fundamental in the faith. For it is not in the 
power of d the whole church, much less of a general council, to 
make any thing fundamental in the faith that is not con- 
tained in the letter or sense of that common faith which was 

z Tertull. Prescript, adversus Haeres. cite credere, sicut et tenetur habere fi- 

c. 13, &c. dem. Quantum autem ad alia credi- 

a Rufin. in Symb. bilia, &c. non tenetur explicite credere, 

b Et neque qui valde potens est in nisi quando hoc ei constiterit in doc- 

dicendo ex ecclesiae praefectis alia ab his trina fidei contineri. Thorn. 2. 2. q. 2. 

dicet, &c. Neque debilis in dicendo A. 5. C. Potest quis errare credendo 

hanc traditionem imminuet. Quum oppositum alicui articulo subtili, ad cu- 

enim una et eadem fides sit, neque is, jusfidemexplicitamnon omnes tenentur. 

qui multum de ea dicere potest, plus- Holkot. in i. sent. q. i. ad quartum. 
quam oportet, dicit, neque qui parum, d Resolutio Occhami est, Quod nee 

ipsam imminuit. Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. tota ecclesia, nee concilium generale, nee 

lib. i. c. 2. et 3. Et S. Basil. Serm. sumrnus pontifex potest facere articu- 

de Fide, tom.ii. p. 195. edit. Basil. 150:;. lum quod non fuit articulus. Articulus 

Una etim mobilis regula, &c. Tertull. enim est ex eo solo, qui a Deo reve- 

de Veland. Virg. c i. latus est. Almain. in 3. Sent. D. 15. 

c Quantum ad prima credibilia, quae q. unica. Conclus. 4. Dub. 3. 
stint articuli fidei, tenetur homo expli- 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. once given (and but once for all) to the saints e . But if it be 
A. C.'s meaning to call for an infallible assurance of all such 
points of faith as are decreed by general councils, then I must 
be bold to tell him, all those decrees are not necessary to 
all men's salvation. Neither do the Romanists themselves 
agree in all such determined points of faith, be they deter- 
mined by councils or by popes. For instance : after those 
books (which we account apocryphal) were f defined to be 
canonical, and an anathema pronounced in the case, sSixtus 
Senensis makes scruple of some of them. And after h pope 
Leo X. had defined the pope to be above a general council, 
yet many Roman catholics defend the contrary ; and so do all 
the Sorbonnists at this very day. Therefore, if these be funda- 
mental in the faith, the Romanists differ one from another in 
the faith, nay, in the fundamentals of the faith, and there- 
fore cannot have infallible assurance of them. Nor is there 
that unity in the faith amongst them, which they so much 
and so often boast of. For what scripture is canonical is a 
great point of faith. And I believe they will not now confess 
that the pope's power over a general council is a small one. 
And so let A. C. look to his own infallible assurance of funda- 
mentals in the faith ; for ours, God be thanked, is well. And 
since he is pleased to call for a particular text of scripture to 
prove all and every thing of this nature, which is ridiculous in 
itself, and unreasonable to demand, (as hath been shewed 1 ;) 
yet when he shall be pleased to bring forth but a particular 
known tradition, to prove all and every thing of this on their 
side, it will then be, perhaps, time for him to call for and for 
us to give further answer about particular texts of scripture. 
A.C.p.69. IX. After all this questioning, A. C. infers, "That I 
had need seek out some other infallible rule and means by 
which I may know these things infallibly ; or else that I have 
no reason to be so confident as to adventure my soul that 
one may be saved living and dying in the protestant faith." 
How weak this inference is, will easily appear by that which 
I have already said to the premises : and yet I have some- 

e Jude 3. terminates per sum. pontificem, &c. 

Concil. Trid. Sess. 4. Alraain. in T,. Sent. D. 24. q. unica. Con- 

8 Six. Senens. Biblioth. Sanct. lib. i. clus. 6. Dubit. 6. fine, 

h Non est necessario credendum de- i Sect. 38. num. VI. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 283 

what left to say to this inference also. And first, I have Sect. 38. 
lived, and shall, God willing, die in the faith of Christ, as it 
was professed in the ancient primitive church, and as it is pro- 
fessed in the present church of England. And for the rule 
which governs me herein, if I cannot be confident for my soul 
upon the scripture, and the primitive church expounding and 
declaring it, I will be confident upon no other. And secondly, 
I have all the reason in the world to be confident upon this 
rule ; for this can never deceive me : another, (that very other 
which A. C. proposes,) namely, the faith of the Roman church, A. c. p. 72. 
may. Therefore, with A. C.'s leave, I will venture my salva- 
tion upon the rule aforesaid, and not trouble myself to seek 
another of man's making, to the forsaking and weakening of 
this which God hath given me. For I know they committed 
two evils, which forsook the fountain of living waters, to hew out 
to themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water k . 
For here is the evil of desertion of that which was right, and 
the evil of a bad choice of that which is hewed out with much 
pains and care, and is after useless and unprofitable. But 
then, thirdly, I find that a Romanist may make use of an 
implicit faith at his pleasure, but a protestant must know all 
these things infallibly ; that is A. C.'s word, " know these 
things." Why, but is it not enough to believe them ? Now 
God forbid it should. Else what shall become of millions of 
poor Christians in the world, which cannot know all these 
things, much less know them infallibly \ Well, I would not 
have A. C. weaken the belief of poor Christians in this fashion. 
But for things that may be known as well as believed, nor I 
nor any other shall need forsake the scripture, to seek another 
rule to direct either our conscience or our confidence. 

X. In the next place A.C. observes, " That the Jesuit was A c. p> 6 9 . 
as confident for his part, with this difference, that he had suffi- 
cient reason of his confidence, but I had not for mine." This 
is said with the confidence of a Jesuit, but as yet, but said. 
Therefore he goes on, and tells us, "That the Jesuit had A. C. p. 70. 
reason of his confidence out of express scriptures, and 
Fathers, and the infallible authority of the church." Now 
truly, express scriptures, with A. C.'s patience, he hath not 
named one that is express, nor can he. And the few scrip- 

k Jer. ii. 13. 

284 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. tures which he hath alleged I have } answered, and so have 
others. As for Fathers, he hath named very few, and with 
what success I leave to the reader's judgment. And for the 
authority of the catholic church, I hold it m as infallible as he, 
and upon better grounds ; but not so of a general council, 
which he here means, as appears "after. And, for my part, 
I must yet think (and I doubt A. C. will not be able to dis- 
prove it) that express scripture, and Fathers, and the autho- 
rity of the church, will rather be found proofs to warrant my 

A. C. p. 70. confidence than his. Yea, but A. C. saith, " That I did not 
then tax the Jesuit with any rashness. 11 It may be so : nor 
did he me. So there we parted even. Yea, but he saith 
again, " That I acknowledge there is but one saving faith, and 
that the lady might be saved in the Roman faith, which was 
all the Jesuit took upon his soul." Why, but if this be all, I 
will confess it again. The first, that there is but one faith, I 
confess with St. Paul . And the other, that the lady might 
be saved in the Roman faith, or p church, I confess, with that 
charity which St. Paul teacheth me, namely, to leave all men, 
especially the weaker both sex and sort, which hold the 
foundation, to stand or fall to their own master 3. And this is 
no mistaken charity. As for the inference which you would 
draw out of it, that is answered at large r already. But then 

A. C. p. 70. A. C. adds, " That I say, but without any proof, that the 
Romanists have many dangerous errors ; but that I neither 
tell them which they be, nor why I think them dangerous, 
but that I leave them to look to their own souls ; which," he 
says, "they do, and have no cause to doubt." How much 
the Jesuit and A. C. have said in this conference without any 
solid proof, I again submit to judgment ; as also what proofs 
I have made. If in this very place I have added none, it is 
because I had made proof enough of the selfsame thing 
before 8 . Where, lest he should want, and call for proof again, 
I have plainly laid together some of the many dangerous 
errors which are charged upon them. So I tell you which, at 
least some of which, they be : and their very naming will 

1 Sect. 25. num. V. Sect. 33. consid. P Sect. num. I. 
3- num. I. q R om ; xiv . 4 . 

beet. 21 . num. V. r Sect. 35. num. II. 

o 'i?' P -' 71 ' s Sect> 33- num. XII. Sect. 35- 

v. 5. num . V II. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 285 

shew their danger. And if I did remit you to look to your Sect. 38. 
own souls, I hope there was no offence in that, if you do it, 
and do it so, that you have no cause to doubt. And the 
reason why you doubt not, A. C. tells us, is, "Because youA.C. p. 70. 
had no new device of your own, or any other men's, nor any 
thing contrary to scripture ; but all most conformable to 
scriptures interpreted by union, consent of Fathers, and defi- 
nitions of councils." Indeed, if this were true, you had little 
cause to doubt in point of your belief. But the truth is, you 
do hold new devices of your own, which the primitive church 
was never acquainted with : and some of those, so far from 
being conformable, as that they are little less than contradic- 
tory to scripture. In which particulars, and divers others, the 
scriptures are not interpreted by union, or consent of Fathers, 
or definitions of councils ; unless perhaps by some late coun- 
cils packed of purpose to do that ill service. I have given 
^stances enough "before ; yet some you shall have here, lest 
you should say again that I affirm without proof or instance. 
I x pray then, whose device was transubstantiation ? 7 And 
whose, communion under one kind? z And whose, depo- 
sition and unthroning, nay, killing of princes, and the like, 
if they were not yours ? For I dare say, and am able 
to prove, there is none of these but are rather contrary, 
than conformable to scripture. Neither is A. C. or any 

u Sect. 33. num. XII. Sect. 35. num. that speaks it out. Rex debet occidi, si 

VII. solicitet populum colere idola, vel de- 

x Condi. Lateran. Can. i. serere legem Dei. Tostat. in 2 Sam. 

y Concil. Const. Sess. 13. c. u. q. 17. And he makes bold with 

z Propter haeresin rex non solum scripture to prove it, Deut. xiii. And 

regno privatur, sed et filii ejus a regni Emanuel Sa in his Aphorisms, verbo 

successione pelluntnr. Simanca, Cathol. Tyrannus ; yet he is so moderate, that 

Tnstit. tit. 9. . 259. Absoluti sunt sub- he would not have this done till he be 

diti a debito fidelitatis : et custodes Ar- sentenced ; but then, Quisquis potest 

cium, &c. Ibid. tit. 46. .37. It was fieri executor. Mariana is far worse; 

stiffly avowed not long since by for he says it is lawful to kill him, post- 

" That no man could shew any one Ro- quam a paucis seditiosis sed doctis coe- 

man catholic of note and learning, that perit tyrannus appellari. De Rege et 

affirmed it lawful to kill kings upon any Reg. Tnstitutione, lib. i. cap. 6. Yea, 

pretext whatsoever." Now surely he but Mariana was disclaimed for this by 

that says (as Romanists do) that it is the Jesuits. Yea, but for all that, there 

lawful to depose a king, says upon the was an apology printed in Italy, anno 

matter, it is lawful to kill him. For 1610, permissu superiorum. And there 

kings do not use to be long lived after it is said, " They were all enemies of 

their deposition : and they seldom stay the holy name of Jesus, that condemned 

till grief breaks their hearts : they have Mariana for any such doctrine. As for 

assassinates ready to make shorter work. Tostatus, no sentence hath touched upon 

But since he is so confident, I will give him at all for it. 
him an author of note, and very learned, 


286 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. Jesuit able to shew any a scripture interpreted by union, or 
b consent of the Fathers of the primitive church, to prove any 
one of these ; nor any definition of ancient councils, but only 
c Lateran, for transubstantiation, and that of d Constance for 
the eucharist in one kind. Which two are modern, at least, 
far downward from the primitive church ; and have done 
more mischief to the church by those their determinations, 
than will be cured, I fear, in many generations. So whatever 
A. C. thinks, yet I had reason enough to leave the Jesuit to 
look to his own soul. 

A. C. p. 70. XI. But A. C., having, as it seems, little new matter, is at 
the same again, and over and over it must go, that there is 
but one saving faith ; that this one faith was once the Ro- 
man ; and that I granted one might be saved in the Roman 
faith. To all which I have abundantly answered e before. 
Marry then he infers, that he sees not how we can have our 
souls saved without we entirely hold this faith, being the 
catholic faith, which, St. Athanasius saith, " unless a man hold 
entirely, he cannot be saved." Now here again is more in 
the conclusion than in the premises, and so the inference fails. 
For say there was a time in which the catholic and the Ro- 
man faith were one; and such a time there was when the 
Roman faith was catholic and famous through the world f : 
yet it doth not follow, since the council of Trent hath added 
a new Creed, that this Roman faith is now the catholic ; for 
it hath added extranea, things without the foundation, dis- 
putable, if not false conclusions to the faith. So that now a 
man may believe the whole and entire catholic faith, even as 
St. Athanasius requires, and yet justly refuse for dross a great 
part of that which is now h the Roman faith. And Athana- 

a Corpus Christ! veraciter esse in f Rom. i. 8. 

eucharistia ex evangelio habemus : con- g Concil. Trident. Bulla Pii 4. super 
versionem vero panis in corpus Christi forma juramenti professionis fidei ad fi- 
evangelium non explicavit, sed expresse nem. Cone. Trident, 
ab ecclesia accepimus. Cajetan. in h And this is so much the more re- 
Thorn. 3 q. 75. Art. I. markable, if it be true which Thomas 

b De transubstantiatione panis in hath. S. Athanasium non composuisse 

corpus Christi rara est in antiquis scrip- hanc manifestationem fidei per modum 

toribus mentio. Alph. a Castro, lib. viii. symboli, sed per modum doctrinae, &c. 

advers. Haer. verbo Indulgentia. El deinde authoritate summi pontificis 

c Concil. Lateran. Can. i. receptam esse, ut quasi regula fidei ha- 

d Concil. Const. Sess. 13. beatur. Thorn. 2. 232. q. i. A. 10. ad 3. 

e Sect. 35. num. I. and Sect. 38. Symbolo apostolorum addita sunt duo 

num. X. a li a? scilicet symbolum Nicaenum, et 

Fisher the Jesuit. 287 

sius himself, as if he meant to arm the catholic faith against Sect. 38. 
all corrupting additions, hath, in the beginning of his 'Creed, 
these words, " This is the catholic faith ;" this, and no other; 
this and no other than here follows. And again, at the end 
of his Creed, " k This is the catholic faith;" ^his, and no more 
than is here delivered, (always presupposing the Apostles' 
Creed, as Athanasius did,) and this is the largest of all Creeds. 
So that if A. C. would wipe his eyes from the mist which rises 
about Tiber, he might see how our souls may be saved, be- 
lieving the catholic faith, and that entire, without the addi- 
tion of Roman leaven. But if he cannot, or, I doubt, will not 
see it, it is enough that by God's grace we see it. And 
therefore once more I leave him and his to look to their own 

XII. After, this A. C. is busy in unfolding the meaning A. C. p. 70. 
of this great Father of the church, St. Athanasius. And he 
tells us, " that he says in his Creed, that without doubt every 
man shall perish that holds not the catholic faith entire 11 
(that is," saith A. C., " in every point of it) and inviolate 
(that is, in the right sense), and for the true formal reason of 
divine revelation, sufficiently applied to our understanding by 
the infallible authority of the catholic church, proposing to 
us by her pastors this revelation." Well, we shall not differ 
much from A. C. in expounding the meaning of St. Athana- 
sius ; yet some few things I shall here observe. And first, I 
agree, that he which hopes for salvation, must believe the 
catholic faith whole and entire in every point. Next, I agree, 
that he must likewise hold it inviolate if to believe it in the 
right sense be to hold it inviolate. But by A. C.'s leave, the 
believing of the Creed in the right sense is comprehended in 
the first branch, the keeping of it whole and entire. For no 
man can properly be said to believe the whole Creed, that 
believes not the whole sense as well as the letter of it, and as 
entirely. But thirdly, for the word inviolate, it is indeed used 
by him that translated Athanasius; but the Father's own 

S. Athanasii, ad majorem fidei expla- des, extra quam nemo salvus esse pot- 

nationem. Biel. in 3 Sent. D. 25. q. est, &c. Bulla Pii 4. super forma jura- 

unica. A. i. D. menti professionis fidei. In fine Con- 

i S. Athanas. in Symb. cil. Trident. 

fc And yet the council of Trent, having 1 Integram fidei veritatem ejus 

added twelve new articles, says thus of doctrina breviter continet. Thorn. 2. 

them also : Haec est vera catholica fi- 2ae. q. i. A. 10. ad 3. 

288 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. words, following the common edition, are, " that he that will 
be saved, must keep the faith vytrj KOL a/xw/xor." Now vyirjs is 
the sound and entire faith : and it cannot be a sound faith 
unless the sense be as whole and entire as the letter of the 
Creed. And ajuco/xos is compounded of the privative particle 
a and /uw/xo?, which is reproach, or infamy. So that ajucojutos 
signifies the holding of the entire faith in such holiness of life 
and conversation, as is without all infamy and reproach. 
That is, as our English renders that Creed exceeding well : 
" Which faith unless a man do keep whole and n undefiled," 
even with such a life as Momus himself shall not be able to 
carp at. So Athanasius (who, certainly, was passing able to 
express himself in his own language) in the beginning of that 
his Creed requires, that we keep it entire, without diminu- 
tion ; and undefined, without blame ; and at the end, that we 
believe it faithfully without wavering. But inviolate is the 
mistaken word of the old interpreter, and with no great know- 
ledge made use of by A. C. And then fourthly, though this 
be true divinity, that he which hopes for salvation must be- 
lieve the whole Creed, and in the right sense too, (if he be 
able to comprehend it,) yet I take the true and first meaning 
of inviolate (could Athanasius's word ajuta>//o? have signified 
so) not to be the holding of the true sense, but not to offer 
violence, or a forced sense or meaning upon the Creed, which 
every man doth not, that yet believes it not in a true sense. 
For not to believe the true sense of the Creed is one thing ; 
but it is quite another to force a wrong sense upon it. Fifthly, 
a reason would be given also why A. C. is so earnest for the 
whole faith, and baulks the word which goes with it, which 
is, holy, or undefiled. For Athanasius doth alike exclude 
from salvation those which keep not the catholic faith holy, 
as well as these which keep it not whole. I doubt, this was 
to spare many of his holy Fathers, the popes, who were as 
far as any (the very lewdest among men, without exception) 
from keeping the catholic faith holy. Sixthly, I agree to the 
next part of his exposition, that a man that will be saved 
must believe the whole Creed, for the true formal reason of 
divine revelation. For upon the truth of God thus revealed 

n Sic ecclesia dicitur fyio^os, Eph. v. 27. et in veteri glossario, immaculatus, 
o Sect. 33. num. VI. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 289 

by himself, lies the infallible certainty of the Christian faith. Sect. 38. 
But I do not grant that this is within the compass of St. 
Athanasius his word a/otw/xoj, nor of the word inviolate. But in 
that respect, it is a mere strain of A. C. And then lastly, 
though the whole catholic church be sufficient in applying 
this to us and our belief, not our understanding, which A. C. A. C. p. 70. 
is at again, yet infallible she is not in the proposal of this 
revelation to us by every of her pastors ; some whereof 
amongst you, as well as others, neglect or forget, at least, to 
feed Christ's sheep, as Christ and his church hath fed them. 

XIII. But now that A. C. hath taught us (as you see) A. C. p. 70. 
the meaning of St. Athanasius, in the next place he tells us, 
" That if we did believe any one article, we (finding the same 
formal reason in all, and applied sufficiently by the same 
means to all) would easily believe all." Why surely we do 
not believe any one article only, but all the articles of the 
Christian faith: and we believe them for the same formal 
reason in all ; namely, because they are revealed from and by 
God, and sufficiently applied in his word and by his church's 
ministration. " But so long as they do not believe all in this 
sort, 11 saith A. C. Look you, he tells us we do not believe A. C. p. 70. 
all, when we profess we do. Is this man become as God, that 
he can better tell what we believe than we ourselves ? Surely 
we do believe all, and in that sort too: though I believe, 
were St. Athanasius himself alive again, and a plain man 
should come to him and tell him he believed his Creed in all 
and every particular, he would admit him for a good catholic 
Christian, though he were not able to express to him the 
formal reason of that his belief. " Yea, but, 11 saith A. C., " while A. C. p. 70. 
they will, as all heretics do, make choice of what they will 
and what they will not believe, without relying upon the infal- 
lible authority of the catholic church, they cannot have that 
one saving faith in any one article. 11 Why, but whatsoever 
heretics do, we are not such, nor do we so. For they which 
believe all the articles (as once again I tell you we do) make 
no choice : and we do rely upon the infallible authority of the 
word of God and the whole catholic church : and therefore 
we both can have, and have that one saving faith, which be- 
lieves all the articles entirely, though we cannot believe that 
any particular church is infallible. 

290 Ar Mishap Laud against 

Sect. 38. XIV. And yet again, A. C. will not thus be satisfied, but 
A. C. p. 71. on he goes, and adds, " That although we believe the same 
truth which other good catholics do in some articles, yet not 
believing them for the same formal reason of divine revela- 
tion, sufficiently applied by infallible church-authority, &c. 
we cannot be said to have one and the same infallible and 
divine faith which other good catholic Christians have, who 
believe the articles for this formal reason, sufficiently made 
known unto them, not by their own fancy nor the fallible 
authority of human deductions, but by the infallible authority 
of the church of God." If A. C. will still say the same thing, 
I must still give the same answer. First, he confesses we 
believe the same truth in some articles, (I pray mark his 
phrase,) " the same truth in some articles," with other good 
catholic Christians. So far his pen hath told truth against his 
will : for he doth not (I wot well) intend to call us catholics, 
and yet his pen being truer than himself, hath let it fall. For 
the word other cannot be so used as here it is, but that we as 
well as they must be good catholics ; for he that shall say, 
The old Romans were valiant as well as other men, supposes 
the Eomans to be valiant men ; and he that shall say, The 
protestants believe some articles as well as other good catho- 
lics, must, in propriety of speech, suppose them to be good 
catholics. Secondly, as we do believe those some articles, so 
do we believe them and all other articles of faith for the same 
formal reason, and so applied, as but just P before I have 
expressed. Nor do we believe any one article of faith by our 
own fancy, or by fallible authority of human deductions ; but, 
next to the infallible authority of God's word, we are guided 
by his church. But then A. C. steps into a conclusion, whi- 
A. C. p. yi.ther we cannot follow him : for he says, " That the article to 
be believed must be sufficiently made known unto us by the 
infallible authority of the church of God ; that is, of men in- 
fallibly assisted by the Spirit of God, as all lawfully called, 
continued, and confirmed general councils are assisted." That 
the q whole church of God is infallibly assisted by the Spirit 
of God, so that it cannot by any error fall away totally from 
Christ the foundation, I make no doubt : for if it could, the 

P Sect. 38. num. XIII. q Sect. 21. num. V. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 291 

gates of hell had prevailed against it; which our Saviour as- Sect. 38. 
sures me r they shall never be able to do. But that all general 
councils, be they never so lawfully called, continued, and con- 
firmed, have infallible assistance, I utterly deny. It is true, 
that a general council de post facto, after it is ended, and ad- 
mitted by the whole church, is then infallible ; for it cannot 
err in that which it hath already clearly and truly determined 
without error. But that a general council a parte ante, when 
it first sits down and continues to deliberate, may truly be 
said to be infallible in all its after-determinations, whatsoever 
they shall be, I utterly deny. And it may be, it was not with- 
out cunning that A. C. shuffled these words together, called, 
continued, and confirmed : for be it never so lawfully called and 
continued, it may err. But after it is confirmed, that is, ad- 
mitted by the whole church, then being found true, it is also 
infallible ; that is, it deceives no man. For so all truth is, 
and is to us, when it is once known to be truth. But then, 
many times that truth, which being known is necessary and 
infallible, was before both contingent and fallible in the way 
of proving it, and to us. And so here, a general council is a 
most probable, but yet a fallible way of inducing truth, though 
the truth once induced may be (after it is found) necessary 
and infallible. And so likewise the very council itself, for that 
particular in which it hath concluded truth : but A. C. must 
both speak and mean of a council set down to deliberate, or 
else he says nothing. 

XV. Now hence A.C. gathers, " That though every thing de- A. C. p. 71 . 
fined to be a divine truth, in general councils, is not absolutely 
necessary to be expressly known and actually believed (as 
some other truths are) by all sorts ; yet no man may (after 
knowledge that they are thus defined) doubt deliberately, 
much less obstinately deny, the truth of any thing so defined." 
Well, in this collection of A. C., first, we have this granted, 
that every thing defined in general councils is not absolutely 
necessary to be expressly known and actually believed by all 
sorts of men: and this no protestant, that I know, denies. 
Secondly, it is affirmed, that after knowledge that these truths 
are thus defined, no man may doubt deliberately, much less 

r Matt. xvi. 18. 
U 2 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. obstinately deny any of them. Truly, obstinately (as the 
word is now in common use) carries a fault along with it : 
and it ought to be far from the temper of a Christian to be 
obstinate against the definitions of a general council. But 
that he may not, upon very probable grounds, in an humble 
and peaceable manner, deliberately doubt, yea, and upon 
demonstrative grounds, constantly deny even such definitions, 
yet submitting himself and his grounds to the church, in that 
or another council, is that which was never till now imposed 
upon believers. For it is one thing for a man deliberately to 
doubt, and modestly to propose his doubt for satisfaction, 
which was ever lawful and is many times necessary; and 
quite another thing for a man, upon the pride of his own judg- 
ment, s to refuse external obedience to the council ; which to 
do was never lawful, nor can ever stand with any government : 
for there is all the reason in the world the council should be 
heard for itself, as well as any such recusant whatsoever, and 
that before a judge as good as itself at least. And to what 
end did t St. Augustine say " that one general council might 
be amended by another, the former by the latter," if men 
might neither deny, nor so much as deliberately doubt of any 
of these truths defined in a general council ? And A. C. 
should have done well to have named but one ancient Father 
of the primitive church that ever affirmed this. u For the 
assistance which God gives to the whole church in general, 
is but in things simply necessary to eternal salvation ; there- 
fore more than this cannot be given to a general council; 
no, nor so much. But then, if a general council shall for- 
get itself, and take upon it to define things not absolutely 
necessary to be expressly known or actually believed, (which 
are the things which A. C. here speaks of;) in these, as 
neither general council, nor the whole church have infal- 
lible assistance, so have Christians liberty, modestly and 
peaceably, and upon just grounds, both deliberately to doubt 
and constantly to deny such the council's definitions. For 
instance ; the council of Florence first defined purgatory to be 

s Sect. 32. num. V. rioribus emendari. 

t De Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. ii. cap. 3. u Sect. 21. num. V. 
Ipsaque plenaria, saepe priora a paste- 

Fisher the Jesuit. 293 

believed as a divine truth and matter of faith, ( x if that council sect. 38 
had consent enough so to define it:) this was afterwards 
deliberately doubted of by the protestants ; after this as con- 
stantly denied, then confirmed by the 7 council of Trent, and 
an anathema set upon the head of every man that denies it. 
And yet scarce any Father within the first three hundred 
years ever thought of it. 

XVI. I know 7 Bellarmine affirms it boldly, " That all the 
Fathers, both Greek and Latin, did constantly teach purgatory 
from the very apostles 1 times. 11 And where he brings his proofs 
out of the Fathers for this point, he divides them into two ranks. 
In the first, a he reckons them which affirm prayer for the 
dead, as if that must necessarily infer purgatory ; whereas 
most certain it is, that the ancients had and gave other rea- 
sons of prayer for the dead, than freeing them out of any 
purgatory : and this is very learnedly and at large set down 
by the now learned b primate of Armagh. But then in the 
second, he says, " there are c most manifest places in the 
Fathers in which they affirm purgatory. 11 And he names 
there no fewer than two and twenty of the Fathers. A great 
jury certainly, did they give their verdict with him. But first, 
within the three hundred years after Christ, he names none 
but Tertullian, Cyprian, and Origen. And d Tertullian speaks 
expressly of hell, not of purgatory. e St. Cyprian of a purging 
to amendment, which cannot be after this life. As for 
f Origen, he, I think, indeed was the first founder of purgatory; 

x I know the Greeks subscribed that sionis fidei. 

council. Sed in illo concilio Graeca z Omnes veteres Graeci et Latini ab 

ecclesia diu restitit. Pet. Mart. Loc. ipso tempore apostolorum constanter 

Com. classe tertia, cap. 9. num. 13 Et docnerunt purgatorium esse. Bellarm. 

in ultima sessione istius concilii Grseci de Purg. lib. i. cap. n. . De tertio 

dixerunt se sine authoritate totius ec- modo. 

clesiae orientaJis quaestionem aliam trac- a Bellarm. de Purg. lib. i. cap. 6. . i . 
tare non posse, praeter illam de proces- b Jac. Usher Armachan. in his An- 

sione Spiritus Sancti. Postea vero, swer to the Jesuit's Challenge, cap. 7. 

consentiente imperatore, tractarunt de p. 194. 

aliis, &c. Florent. Cone. Sess. ult. apud c Sunt apertissima loca in Patribus, 

Nicolinum, torn. iv. p. 894, &c. This ubi asserunt purgatorium. Bellarm. de 

savours of some art to bring in the Purg. lib.i. cap. 6. . Deinde sunt. 
Greeks. Howsoever, this shews enough d Tertull. lib. de Anim. cap. 1 7. 

against Bellarmine, that all the Greeks infer. 

did not constantly teach purgatory, as e Cypr. lib. iv. ep. 2. Emendari igne. 
he affirms, de Purgat. lib. i. c. n. . De f Origen. irepl apx&v, lib. i. cap. 6. 

tertio modo. S. Hieron. in Jonaeiii. Bellarm. de Purg 

y Concil. Trid. Sess. 25, et in Bulla lib. i. cap. 2. . Porro non. S. August. 

Pii IV. super forma juramenti profes- Civ. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. 1 7. 


294 A rcJibishop Laud against 


Sect. 38. but of such an one as, I believe, Bellarmine dares not affirm. 
" For he thought there was no punishment after this life but 
purgatory ; and that not only the most impious men, but even 
the devils themselves should be saved, after they had suffered 
and been purged enough." Which is directly contrary to the 
word of God expounded by his s church. In the fourth and 
fifth (the great and learned ages of the church) he names 
more, as h St. Ambrose : but St. Ambrose says, That some 
shall be saved quasi per ignem, as it were by fire; leaving it as 
doubtful what was meant by that fire, as the place itself doth 
whence it is taken, M Cor. iii. k St. Hierome indeed names a 
purging by fire ; but it is not very plain that he means it after 
this life. And howsoever, this is most plain, that St. Hierome 
is at Credimus, we believe eternal punishment; but he goes 
no further than Arbitramur, we think there is a purging. So 
with him it was arbitrary, and therefore sure no matter of 
faith then. And again ] he saith, that some Christians may 
be saved post poenas, after some punishments endured, but he 
neither tells us where nor when. m St. Basil names indeed 
purgatory fire; but he relates as uncertainly to that in 
i Cor. iii. as St. Ambrose doth. As for "Paulinus, he 
speaks for prayer for the dead, but not a word of purgatory. 
And the place in St. Gregory Nazianzen is far from a mani- 
fest place. For he speaks there of baptism by fire, which is 
no P usual phrase to signify purgatory. But yet say that here 
he doth, there is a Tvy6v, a fortassis, a peradventure in the 
words, which Bellarmine cunningly leaves out ; and if it be 
a peradventure ye shall then be baptized with fire, why then 
it is at a peradventure too that ye shall not. Now such 
casual stuff as this, peradventure you shall, and peradventure 
you shall not, is no expression for things which are valued to 
be dejide, and to be believed as matters of faith. Bellarmine 
goes on with q Lactantius, but with no better success : for he 

S August. Civ. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. 17. o Greg. Naz. Orat. 39. fine. 

h S. Ambros. in Psal. xxxvi. 14. P I think the first that ever used that 

i I Cor. iii. 15. phrase, baptism by jire^ was Origen. 

k S. Hieron. in Ixvi. Isai. fine. And he used it for martyrdom, as 

1 S. Hieron. cont. Pelag. lib. iv. ultra clearly appears by a passage of his in 

medium. Euseb. Hist. lib. vi. cap. 4. edit. Graec. 

m S. Basil, in Isai. ix. Lat. Colonise Allob. 1612. 

n Paulin. ep. i. q Lact. lib. vii. cap. ai. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 295 

says indeed that some men perstringentur igne, shall be Sect. 38. 
sharply touched by fire. But he speaks of such, quorum pec- 
cata prcevaluerunt, whose sins have prevailed. And they in 
Bellarmine's doctrine are for hell, not purgatory. As for 
St. Hilary, r he will not come home neither. It is true, he 
speaks of a fire too, and one that must be endured ; but he 
tells us, it is a punishment expiandce a peccatis animce, to 
purge the soul from sins. Now this will not serve Bellar- 
mine's turn : for they of Rome teach, that the sins are for- 
given here, and that the temporal punishment only remains to 
be satisfied in purgatory. And what need is there then of 
purging of sins ? Lest there should not be Fathers enough, 
he reckons in s Boetius too : but he, though not long before a 
convert, yet was so well seen in this point, that he goes no 
further than Puto, I think that after death some souls are 
exercised purgatoria dementia, with a purgative clemency. 
But Puto, I think it is so, is no expression for matter of faith. 
The two pregnant authorities which seem to come home are 
those of Gregory Nyssen and Theodoret : but for l Theodoret 
in Scholiis Grsecis, (which is the place Bellarmine quotes,) 
I can find no such thing ; and manifest it is, Bellarmine u him- 
self took it but upon trust. And for x St. Gregory Nyssen ? 
it is true, some places in him seem plain ; but then they are 
made so doubtful by other places in him, that I dare not say 
simply and roundly what his judgment was: for he says, 
" Men must be purged from perturbations, and either by 
prayers and philosophy, or the study of wisdom, or by the 
furnace of purgatory fire after this life." And again, " That 
a man cannot be partaker tfeio'rrjros, of the divine nature, unless 
the purging fire doth take away the stains that are in his soul." 
And again, " That after this life a purgatory fire takes away 
the blots and propensity to evil." And I deny not, divers 
other like places are in him. But first, this is quite another 
thing from the Roman purgatory. For St. Gregory tells us 
here, that the purgatory he means purges perturbations, and 

r S. Hilar. in Psal. cxviii. 20. p. 1066. edit. Paris. 1615. torn. ii. Aia 

s Boetius, lib. iv. Pros. 4. irpotrevx^s re Kal <pt\0(ro<pias e/c/ca0ap0els 

t Theod in I Cor. iii. /) fj-erct. T^]V, &c. TV f^i^eevTa rfj 

Bellarm. de Purgat. lib. i. cap. 4. tyvxf; pvirbv, &c. ibid. p. 1067. 'Ev ry 

. Ex Graecis habemns. Ka6ap<ricp irvpl airofta\\6i^Twv, &c. ibid, 

x S. Greg. Nyss. Orat. de Mortuis. p. 1068. 


996 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. stains, and blots, and propensity to evil: whereas the pur- 
gatory which Rome now teaches purges not sin, " ybut is 
only satisfactory by way of punishment for sins already for- 
given, but for which satisfaction was not made before their 
death." Secondly, St. Gregory Nyssen himself seems not ob- 
scurely to relate to some other fire: z for he says expressly, 
" That the soul is to be punished, till the vitiosity of it be 
consumed purgatorio igne ,-" so the translation renders it ; but 
in the original it is ro> aKoijur/ra) Trupl, that is, in a fire that 
sleeps not ; which, for aught appears, may be understood of a 
fire that is eternal : whereas the fire assigned to purgatory 
shall cease. Besides, St. Gregory says plainly, " The soul can- 
not suffer by fire but in the body ; and the body cannot be 
with it till the resurrection/ 1 Therefore a he must needs speak 
of a fire after the resurrection, which must be either the fire 
of the general conflagration, or hell: purgatory he cannot 
mean ; where, according to the Romish tenet, the soul suffers 
without the body. The truth is, divers of the ancients, 
especially Greeks, which were a little too much acquainted 
with Plato's school, b philosophized and disputed upon this 
and some other points with much obscurity, and as little cer- 
tainty. So upon the whole matter, in the fourth and fifth 
hundred year, you see here is none that constantly and per- 
spicuously affirm it. And as for St. Augustine, he c said and 
d unsaid it, and e at the last left it doubtful; which, had it 
then been received as a point of faith, he durst not have done. 
Indeed then, in St. Gregory the Great's time, in the beginning 
of the sixth age, purgatory was grown to some perfection. 
For f St. Gregory himself is at Scio, (it was but at Puto a 

y Item definimus, si vere pcenitentes post mortem, sed desinunt. Et anima 

in Dei charitate decesserint, antequam mox in paradisum, &c. S. August, 

dignis poenitentiae fructibus de commissis cont. Foelicianum, cap. 15. Et duo 

et omissis satisfecerint, pcenis purga- tantum loca esse, &c. S. August. Serm. 

toriis post mortem purgari. Concil. Flo- 19. de Verb. Apost. cap. 15. Et de Civ. 

rent, circa prin. per Bin. edit. Colon. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. 16. fine, negat, nisi 

1618. sit ignis ille in consummatione saeculi. 

z S. Greg. Nyss. de Anima et Resur. e Quaeri potest, &c. S. Aug. in En- 

tom. ii. p. 658. chirid. cap. 69. Forsitan verum est, &c. 

a S. Greg. Orat. 3. de Resurrect. S. August, de Civit. Dei, lib. xxi. cap. 

Chmti. 26. Quid S. Paulus senserit, I Cor. iii. 

b Non expedit philosophari altius, de igne illo, malo intelligentiores, et 

&c. Orig. cont. Celsum, lib. vi. doctiores audire. S. August, lib. de 

c Constat animas purgari post hanc Fide et Oper. cap. 16. 

vitam. S. August. Civit. Dei, lib. xxi. f S. Greg, in Psal. iii. Pcenitentialem 

cap. 24. vide. princ. 

d Justorum flagella non incipiunt 

Fisher the Jesuit. 297 

little before,) I know that some shall be expiated in purgatory Sect. 38. 
flames. And therefore I will easily give Bellarmine all that 
follow : for after this time purgatory was found too warm a 
business to be suffered to cool again. And in the afterages, 
more were frighted than led by proof into the belief of it. 

XVII. Now by this we see also that it could not be a 
tradition, for then we might have traced it by the smoke 
to the apostles 1 times. Indeed Bellarmine would have it such 
a tradition: for he tells us out of sSt. Augustine, "That 
that is rightly believed to be delivered by apostolical au- 
thority which the whole church holds, and hath ever held, 
and yet is not instituted by any council." And he adds, 
that purgatory is such a tradition, so constantly held in the 
whole church, Greek and Latin; and " h that we do not find 
any beginning of this belief." Where I shall take the bold- 
ness to observe these three things. First, that the doctrine 
of purgatory was not held ever in the whole catholic church 
of Christ. And this appears by the proofs of 'Bellarmine 
himself produced, and I have k before examined. For there 
it is manifest that scarce two Fathers directly affirm the 
belief of purgatory for full six hundred years after Christ, 
Therefore purgatory is no matter of faith, nor to be believed, 
as descending from apostolical authority, by St. Augustine's 
rule. Secondly, that we can find a beginning of this doctrine, 
and a beginner too, namely Origen. And neither Bellarmine 
nor any other is able to shew any one Father of the church 
that said it before him. Therefore purgatory is not to be 
believed as a doctrine delivered by apostolical authority, by 
Bellarmine^s own rule ; for it hath a beginning. Thirdly, I 
observe too, that Beliarmine cannot well tell where to lay 
the foundation of purgatory, that it may be safe : for first? 
he labours to found it upon scripture. To that end ] he 
brings no fewer than ten places out of the Old Testament, 
and nine out of the New, to prove it : and yet, fearing lest 

g Quod universa tenet ecclesia, nee h Non invenimus initium hujus dog- 

conciliis institutum, sed semper reten- mads, sed omnes veteres Graeci et La- 

tum est, non nisi authoritate apostolica tini, &c. Bellarm. de Purg. lib. i. c. n. 

traditum rectissime creditur. S.August. . De tertio modo. 

de Bapt. cont. Donat. lib. iv. c. 24 i De Purg. lib. i. c. 6. 

Nee ad summos pontifices referri pot- k Sect. 38. num. XVI. 

est, addit Melch. Canus de Locis, * Bellarm. de Purgat. lib. i. c. 3, 4. 

lib. iii. c. 4. prin. 

298 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. these places be strained, (as indeed they are,) and so too 
weak to be laid under such a vast pile of building as purga- 
tory is m , he flies to unwritten tradition. And by this word of 
God unwritten, he says, it is manifest that the doctrine of 
purgatory was delivered by the apostles. Sure, if nineteen 
places of scripture cannot prove it, I would be loath to fly to 
tradition. And if recourse to tradition be necessary, then 
certainly those places of scripture made not the proof they 
were brought for. And once more ; how can Bellarmine say 
here, that we find not the beginning hujus dogmatis, of this 
article, when he had said before, that he had found it in the 
" nineteen places of scripture f For if in these places he 
could not find the beginning of the doctrine of purgatory, he 
is false while he says he did. And if he did find it there, 
then he is false here in saying we find no beginning of it. 
And for all his brags of n Omnes veteres, "All the ancient 
Greek and Latin do constantly teach purgatory ;" yet Al- 
phonsus a Castro deals honestly and plainly, and tells us, 
u That the mention of purgatory in ancient writers is fere 
nulla, almost none at all, especially in the Greeks." 

And he adds, " That hereupon purgatory is not believed 
by the Grecians to this very day." And what now, I pray, 
after all this, may I not so much as deliberately doubt of 
this because it is now defined ? and but now in a manner ? 
and thus ? No, sure. So A. C. tells you. Doubt ! No. 
For when you had fooled the archbishop of Spalatro back to 
Rome, there you either made him say, or said it for him, (Pfor 
in print it is, and under his name,) that since it is now de- 
fined by the church, a man is as much bound to believe there 
is a purgatory, as that there is a trinity of persons in the 

HI De tertio modo perspicuum est, P Purgatorium nullura esse, est mani- 

&c. Bellar. de Purg. lib. i. c. n. . Ter- festa hreresis, &c. M. Anton, de Do- 

tio ex verbo, &c. et . De tertio modo, minis sui reditus ex Anglia consilium 

&c. exponit. Paris. 1623. p. 17 Merita, 

n Omnes veteres Graeci et Latini, indulgentiae, et reliqua, quae sxiperius ut 

&c. Bellarm. de Purgat. lib. i. c. u. in ecclesia definita commemoravi, sunt 

. De tertio modo. omnes articuli fundamentales, quia non 

De purgatorio in antiquis scrip- minus nituntur :-evelationi quam priora 

toribus potissimum Graecis fere nulla de Trinitate. Ibid. p. 32. And so 

mentio est. Qua de causa usque in much A. C. himself says of all points, 

hodiernum diem purgatorium non est in which, in the doctrine of the faith, 

a Graecis creditum. Alphonsus a Castro protestants differ from them, in his 

advers. Hares, lib. viii. verbo Indulgentia. Relation of the first Conference, p. 28. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 299 

Godhead. How far comes this short of blasphemy, to make Sect. 38. 
the Trinity and purgatory things alike and equally credible ? 

XVIII. Yea, but A. C. will give you a reason why no 
man may deliberately doubt, much less deny, any thing that 
is defined by a general council. And his reason is, " Because A. C. p. 71. 
every such doubt and denial is a breach from the one saving 
faith." This is a very good reason, if it be true. But how 
appears it to be true ? How ! Why, " It takes away," saith 
A. C., " infallible credit from the church; and so the divine A. C. p. 71. 
revelation not being sufficiently applied, it cannot, according 
to the ordinary course of God's providence, breed infallible 
belief in us." Why, but deliberately to doubt and constantly 
to deny, upon the grounds and in the manner q aforesaid, 
doth not take away infallible credit from the whole church, 
but only from the definition of a general council, some way 
or other misled ; and that in things not absolutely necessary 
to all men's salvation; for of such things r A. C. here speaks 
expressly. Now to take away the infallible credit from some 
definitions of general councils, in things not absolutely neces- 
sary to salvation, is no breach upon the one saving faith 
which is necessary, nor upon the credit of the catholic church 
of Christ in things absolutely necessary ; for which only it 
had infallible assistance promised. So that no breach being 
made upon the faith, nor no credit which ever it had being 
taken from the church, the divine revelation may be and 
is as sufficiently applied as ever it was ; and in the ordinary 
course of God's providence may breed as infallible belief in 
things necessary to salvation as ever it did. 

XIX. But A. C. will prove his reason before given, and 
therefore he asks out of St. Paul, iis How shall men believe unless A. C. p. 71. 
they hear? how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall 
they preach, (to wit, infallibly,) unless they be sent; that is, 
from God, and infallibly assisted by his Spirit ?" Here is that 
which I have twice at least spoken to already, namely, that 
A. C. by this will make every priest in the church of Rome 
that hath learning enough to preach, and dissents not from 
that church, an infallible preacher ; which no Father of the 

Q Sect. 38. num. V. known and actually believed by all 

r " Though every thing denned to be sorts," &c. A. C. p. 71. 

a divine truth in general councils is s Rom. x. 14, 15. 
not absolutely necessary to be expressly 

300 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. primitive church did ever assume to himself nor the church 
give him : and yet the Fathers of the primitive church were 
sent, and from God ; were assisted, and by God ; and did 
sufficiently propose to men the divine revelation, and did by 
it beget and breed up faith, saving faith, in the souls of men ; 
thought no one among them, since the apostles, was an in- 
fallible preacher. And A. C. should have done very well here 
to have made it manifest that this scripture, How shall they 
preach, (to wit, infallibly,) is so interpreted by union, consent 

A C. P. 70. f Fathers, and definitions of councils, as he u bragged before 
that they use to interpret scripture : for I do not find, How 
shall they preach, (to wit, x infallibly,) to be the comment of any 
one of the Fathers, or any other approved author ; and let 
him shew it if he can. 

XX. After this (for I see the good man is troubled, and 
forward and backward he goes) he falls immediately upon this 

A. C. p. 71. question : " If a whole general council, defining what is divine 
truth, be not believed to be sent and assisted by God's Spirit, 
and consequently of infallible credit, what man in the world 
can be said to be of infallible credit f ' Well, first, A. C. hath 
very ill luck in*fitting his conclusion to his premises, and his 
consequent to his antecedent: and so it is here with him. 
For a general council may be assisted by God's Spirit, and in 
a great measure too, and in a greater than any private man, 
not inspired, and yet not consequently be of infallible credit : 

t Alios (ab authoribus canonicae scrip- alicui, nisi quern scit posse falli et fal- 

turae) ita lege, ut quantalibet sanctitate lere, licet credat eura non velle fallere. 

doctrinaque praepolleant, non ideo ve- Scotus in 3. Sent. D. 23. q. unica. 

rum putem, quod ipsi ita senserunt, Therefore, in the judgment of your 

vel scripserunt. Thorn, p. i. q. i. Art. own school, your preachers can both 

8. ad 2. ex S. August, epist. 19. deceive and be deceived ; and therefore 

Mihi non credas, nisi demonstrationem certainly are not infallible. And M. 

accipias ex sacris literis. S. Cyril. Hie- Canus very expressly makes this but an 

rosol. Cat. 4. introduction to infallible faith : Primum 

u A. C. p. 70. ergo id statuo juxta communem legem 

31 Verba haec apostoli non possunt aliqua exteriora et humana incitamenta 

intelligi de fide infusa, ilia enim imme- necessaria esse, quibus ad evangelii 

diate a Deo creata est, et non est ex fidem inducamur. Quomodo enim cre- 

auditu ut hsec. Apertissime colligitur dent ei, quern non audierunt? etc. Canus 

ex Biel. in 3. Sent. D. 23. q. 2. A. 2. deLocis, lib. ii.c. 8. . Primum ergo Et 

Cone. i. Ergo fides acquisita necessaria iterum : Si fides infusa ita fidei acqui- 

est. Ibid Sed praeter acquisitam, in- sitae niteretur, tanquam suo funda- 

fusa etiam requiritur, et non solum mento ; ipsum fundamentum fidei nos- 

propter intentionem actus, sed etiam trae non esset divina, sed humana veritas. 

propter assensum et certitudinem. Quia Ibid. . Cui et tertium. Therefore 

non potest esse firmus assensus a fide surely A. C. abuses this place of the 

acquisita. Quia per earn nullus credit apostle very boldly. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 301 

for all assistance of God's Spirit reaches not up to infallibility. Sect. 38. 
I hope the ancient bishops and Fathers of the primitive 
church were assisted by God's Spirit, and in a plentiful mea- 
sure too, and yet A. C. himself will not say they were infal- 
lible. And, secondly, for the question itself; " If a general 
council be not, what man in the world can be said to be of 
infallible credit f Truly, I will make you a ready answer : No 
man. Not the pope himself I No : let God and Ms word be 
true, and every man a liarY; for so, more or less, every man 
will be found to be. And this is neither damage to the 
church, nor wrong to the person of any. 

XXI. But then A. C. asks a shrewder question than this. A. C. p. 71. 
" If such a council lawfully called, continued, and confirmed, 
may err in defining any one divine truth, how can we be 
infallibly certain of any other truth defined by it ? z for if it 
may err in one, why not in another, and another, and so in 
all?" It is most true, if such a council may err in one, it 
may in another, and another, and so in all of like nature : I 
say, in all of like nature. And A. C. may remember he ex- 
pressed himself a little before, to speak of the defining of A. C. p. 71. 
such divine truths, as are not absolutely necessary to be 
expressly known and actually believed of all sorts of men. 
Now there is, there can be no necessity of an infallible cer- 
tainty in the whole catholic church, and much less in a 
general council, of things not a absolutely necessary in them- 
selves. For Christ did not intend to leave an infallible cer- 
tainty in his church, to satisfy either contentious, or curious, 
or presumptuous spirits. And therefore, in things not funda- 
mental, not necessary, it is no matter if councils err in one, 
and another, and a third; the whole church having power 
and means enough to see that no council err in necessary 
things, and this is certainty enough for the church to have, 
or for Christians to expect; especially since the foundation 
is so strongly and so plainly laid down in scripture and 
the Creed, that a modest man might justly wonder why any 
man should run to any later council, at least for any infallible 

XXII. Yet A. C. hath more questions to ask; and his A. C.p. 72. 

y Romans iii. 4. a Sect. 21. num. V. z Sect. ro. num. XV. 

302 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. next is, " How we can (according to the ordinary course) be 
infallibly assured that it errs in one and not in another, when 
it equally by one and the same authority defines both to be 
divine truth?" A. C., taking here upon him to defend Mr. 
Fisher the Jesuit, could not but see what I had formerly 
written concerning this difficult question about general coun- 
cils. And to all that (being large) he replied little or 
nothing. Now, when he thinks that may be forgotten, or as 
if it did not at all lie in his way, he here turns questionist, 
to disturb that business, and indeed the church, as much as 
he can. But to this question also I answer again, Tf any 
general council do now err, either it errs in things absolutely 
necessary to salvation, or in things not necessary. If it err in 
things necessary, we can be infallibly assured by the scripture, 
the Creeds, the four first councils, and the whole church, 
where it errs in one, and not in another. If it be in non 
necessariis, in things not necessary, it is not requisite that we 
should have for them an infallible assurance. As for that 
which follows, it is notoriously both cunning and false. It is 
false to suppose that a general council, defining two things 
for divine truths, and erring in one, but not erring in another, 
doth define both equally by one and the same authority. 
And it is cunning, because these words, " by the same author- 
ity," are equivocal, and must be distinguished, that the truth, 
which A. C. would hide, may appear. Thus then, suppose a 
general council, erring in one point, and not in another; it 
doth define both and equally by the same delegated authority 
which that council hath received from the catholic church. 
But it doth not define both, and much less equally, by the 
same authority of the scripture, (which must be the council's 
rule, as well as private men's ;) no, nor by the same authority 
of the whole catholic church, (who did not intentionally give 
them equal power to define truth, and error for truth.) And 
I hope A. C. dares not say the scripture (according to which 
all councils that will uphold divine truth must determine) 
doth equally give either ground or power to define error and 

i.e. p. 72. XXIII. To his former questions A. C. adds, " That if 
we leave this to be examined by any private man, this exa- 
mination not being infallible had need to be examined by 

Fisher the Jesuit. 303 

another, and this by another, without end, or ever coming to Sect. 38. 
infallible certainty, necessarily required in that one faith 
which is necessary to salvation, and to that peace and unity 
which ought to be in the church." Will this inculcating the 
same thing never be left ? I told the Jesuit b before, that I 
give no way to any private man to be judge of a general 
council: and there also I shewed the way how an erring 
council might be rectified, and the peace of the church either 
preserved or restored, without lifting any private spirit above 
a council, and without this process in infinitum (which A. C. 
so much urges, and which is so much declined in all c sciences) . 
For as the understanding of a man must always have some- 
what to rest upon, so must his faith. But a d private man, 
first for his own satisfaction, and after for the church's, if he 
have just cause, may consider of and examine, by the e judg- 
ment of discretion, though not of power, even the definitions 
of a general council. But A. C. concludes well, " That an 
infallible certainty is necessary for that one faith which is 
necessary to salvation." And of that (as I expressed f before) 
a most infallible certainty we have already in the scripture, 
the Creeds, and the four first general councils, to which, for 
things necessary and fundamental in the faith, we need no 
assistance from other general councils. And some of your 
Sown, very honest and very learned, were of the same opinion 
with me. And for the peace and unity of the church in 
things absolutely necessary, we have the same infallible direc- 
tion that we have for faith. But in things not necessary, 
(though they be divine truths also,) if about them Chris- 
tian men do differ, it is no more than they have done, more 
or less, in all ages of the church : and they may differ, and 
yet preserve the h one necessary faith, and ' charity too, entire, 

b Sect 32. num. V. Sect. 33. con- centes, omnia bene a patribus nostris 

sid. 7. num. IV. ordinata ac constituta, modo ab omni- 

c Arist. I. Post. Tex. 6. et 4. Me- bus legitime et fideliter servarentur. 

taph. T. 14. Faternur equidem id ipsum esse verissi- 

d Sect. 38. num. XV. mum. Tamen cum nihil fere servetur, 

e Hie non loquimur de decisione, seu &c. Pet de Aliaco, lib. de Reformat, 

determinatione doctrinali, qua ad unum- Eccles. fine. So that after-councils are 

quemque virum peritum spectare di- rather to decree for observance, than 

gnoscitur ; sed de authoritativa et judi- to make any new determinations of the 

ciali, &c. Jac. Almain. lib. de Author, faith. 
Eccles. c. 10. prin. h Non omnis error in his quae fidei 

f Sect. 38. num. I. sunt, est aut irifidelitas, aut haeresis. 

g Sunt qui nescio qua ducti ratione Holkot. in i Sent. q. i. ad 4. K. 
sentiunt non esse opus general! con- i Scimus quosdam quod semel imbi- 

cilio (de Constantiensi loquitur) di- berint nolle deponere, nee propositum 

304 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. if they be so well minded. I confess it were heartily to be 
wished, that in these things also, men might be all of one 
mind and one judgment ; to which the apostle exhorts, 
k l Cor. i. But this cannot be hoped for till the church be 
triumphant over all human frailties, which here hang thick 
and close about her ; the want both of unity and peace pro- 
ceeding too often, even where religion is pretended, from men 
and their humours, rather than from things, and errors to be 
found in them. 

A. C. p. 72. XXIV. And so A. C. tells me, " That it is not therefore 
(as I would persuade) the fault of councils 1 definitions, but the 
pride of such as will prefer, and not submit their private 
judgments, that lost, and continues the loss of peace and 
unity of the church, and the want of certainty in that one 
aforesaid soul-saving faith. Once again, I am bold to tell 
A. C., there is no want of certainty, most infallible certainty, 
of that one soul-saving faith. And if, for other opinions 
which flutter about it, there be a difference, a dangerous dif- 
ference, as at this day there is ; yet necessary it is not, that 
therefore, or for prevention thereof, there should be such a 
certainty, an infallible certainty, in these things. For he 
understood himself well that said, Oportet esse hcereses^, 
There must, there will be heresies. And wheresoever that 
necessity lies, it is out of doubt enough to prove, that Christ 
never left such an infallible assurance as is able to prevent 
them, or such a mastering power in his church, as is able to 
overawe them ; but they come with their oportet about them, 
and they rise and spring in all ages very strangely. But in 
particular, for that which first caused and now continues the 
loss of unity in the church of Christ; as I make no doubt 
but that the pride of men is one cause, so yet can I not think 
that pride is the adequate and sole cause thereof. But in 
part pride caused it, and pride on all sides: pride in some 
that would not at first, nor will not since, submit their private 
judgments, where with good conscience they may and ought ; 

suum facile mutare, sed salvo inter sentio de minimis, et de opinionibus re- 

collegas pads et concordiae vinculo, pugnat quidem paci perfects, in qua 

qiifedam propria quae apud se semel plene veritas cognoscetur, et omnis ap- 

sint usurpata, retinere. Qua in re nee petitus complebitur. Non tamen re- 

nos vim cuiquam facimus, aut legem pugnat paci imperfectae, qualis habetur 

damus, &c. S. Cypr. lib. ii. epist. i. in via. Thorn. 2. 233. q. 29. Art. 3. 

Concordia quae est charitatis effectus, ad 2. 

est unio voluntatum, non opinionum. k i Cor. i. 10. Phil. ii. 2. 
Thorn. 2. 2ae. q. 37. Art. i. C. Dis- 1 i Cor. xi. 19. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 305 

and pride in others, that would not first, nor will not yet Sect. 38. 
mend manifest, great, and dangerous errors ; which with all 
good conscience they ought to do. But it is not pride not to 
submit to known and gross errors : and the definitions of 
some councils (perhaps the Lateran, Constance, and Trent) 
have been greater and more urgent causes of breach of unity 
than the pride of men hath been ; which yet I shall never 
excuse, wherever it is. 

XXV. How far this one soul-saving faith extends, A. C. A. C. p. 72. 
tells me I have confessed it not a work for my pen : " but, " 
he says, " it is to be learned from that one, holy, catholic, 
apostolic, always visible, and infallible Roman church; of 
which the lady, once doubting, is now fully satisfied," &c. 
Indeed (though A. C. sets this down with some scorn, which 
I can easily pass over) it is true that thus m I said : There is 
a latitude in faith, especially in reference to different men's 
salvation ; but to set a bound to this, and strictly to define 
it, Just thus far you must believe in every particular, or incur 
damnation, is no work for my pen. Thus I said, and thus I 
say still. For though the foundation be one and the same in 
all, yet a "latitude there is, and a large one too, when you 
come to consider, not the foundation common to all, but 
things necessary to many particular men's salvation : for to 
whomsoever God hath given more, of him shall more be re- 
quired ', as well in belief, as in obedience and performance. 
And the gifts of God, both ordinary and extraordinary, 
to particular men, are so various, as that, for my part, I hold 
it impossible for the ablest pen that is to express it. And in 
this respect I Psaid it with humility and reason, that to set 
these bounds was no work for my pen ; nor will I ever 
take upon me to express that tenet or opinion (the denial 
of the foundation only excepted) which may shut any Christian 

m Sect. 38. num. I. which are not so for a poor ignorant 
n Sect 38. num. VIII. soul. Si quis de antecessorihus nos- 
o Luke xii. 48. Unicuique secun- tris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non 
dum proportionem suam, secundum hoc observavit, et tenuit, quod nos 
differentiam scientiae vel ignorantise, Dominus facere exemplo et magisterio 
&c. Et postea : Extenditur doctrina suo doeuit, potest simplicitati ejus de 
haec, non solum ad donum scientiae, indulgentia Domini venia concedi. No- 
Ac. Cajetan. in S. Luc. xii. Ecce quo- bis vero non poterit ignosci, qui nunc a 
modo scientia aggravat culpam. Unde Domino admoniti et instruct! sumus. 
Gregorius, &c. Gorran. in S. Luc. xii. S. Cypr. lib. ii. epist. 3. 
Therefore many things may be neces- P Sect. 38. num. I. 
sary for a knowing man's salvation, 

306 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. out of heaven. And, A. C., I believe you know very well, to 
what a narrow scantling some 9 learned of your own side bring 
the very foundation itself, rather than they will lose any that 
lay hold on Christ the Son of God, the Redeemer of the 
world. And as Christ epitomises the whole law of obedience 
into these two great commandments, r the love of God and our 
neighbour ; so the apostle epitomises the whole law of belief 
into these two great assents, s that God is, and that he is a re- 
warder of them that seek him, that seek him in Christ. And 
St. Peter was full of the Holy Ghost when he expressed it, 
That there is no salvation to them that seek it in or by an- 
other name 1 . 

XXVI. But since this is no work for my pen, it seems A. C. 
will not say it is a work u for his. But he x tells us, " It is to 
be learned of the one, holy, catholic, apostolic, always visible, 
and infallible Roman church.'" Titles enough given to the 
Roman church : and I wish she deserved them all, for then 
we should have peace ; but it is far otherwise. One she is, as 
a particular church, but not the one. Holy she would be 
counted ; but the world may see, if it will not blind itself, of 
what value holiness is in that court and country. Catholic 
she is not, in any sense of the word ; for she is not the y uni- 
versal, and so not catholic in extent : nor is she sound in 
doctrine, and in things which come near upon the foundation 
too ; so not z catholic in belief. Nor is she the prime mother- 

q Articuli fidei stint sicut principia larm. de Rom. Pont. lib. iv. cap. 4. . r. 

per se nota. Et sicut quaedam eomm Catholica autem est ilia quae diffusa est 

in aliis implicite continentur, ita omnes per universum orbem. S. Cyril. Hierosol. 

articuli implicite continentur in aliqui- Catech. 18. 

bus primis credibilibus, &c. secundum z Catholica enim dicitur ecclesia ilia 

illud ad Heb. xi. Thorn. 2. 233. q. i. Art. quae universaliter docet sine ullo defectu, 

10. b. In absolute nobis et facili est vel differentia dogmatum. S. Cyril. 

seternitas: Jesum suscitatum a mortuis Hierosol. Catech. 18. UndeAugustinus 

per Deum credere, et ipsum esse Domi- subscripsit se episcopum catholicae ec- 

num confiteri, &c. S. Hilar. de Trin. clesiae Hipponiregiensis. De Actis cum 

lib. x. ad finem. Fcelice Manich. lib. i. cap. 20. et lib. ii. 

r Matth. xxii. 37. cap. i. Et catholica Alexandrinorum. 

s Heb. xi. 6. Soz. Hist. lib. i. 9. et lib. ii. cap. 3. And 

t Acts iv. 1 2. so every particular church is or may be 

u And yet before, in this conference, called catholic, and that truly, so long 

et apud A. C. p. 42, the Jesuit whom he as it teaches catholic doctrine. In which 

defends hath said it expressly, " That sense the particular Roman church was 

all those are fundamental which are ne- called catholic, so long as it taught all 

cessary to salvation." and only those things to be de fide, 

x A. C. p. 72. which the catholic church itself main- 

y Romana ecclesia particularis. Bel- tained. But now Rome doth not so. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 307 

church of Christianity, a Jerusalem was that; and so not Sect. 38. 
catholic as a fountain or original, or as the head or root of 
the catholic. 

XXVII. And because many Romanists object here, (though 
A.C. doth it not,) that St. Cyprian called the " b Roman church, 
the root and matrix of the catholic church of Christ ;" I hope 
I shall have leave to explain that difficult place also. First 
then, St. Cyprian names not Rome ; that stands only in the 
margin, and was placed there as his particular judgment led 
him c that set out St. Cyprian. Secondly, the true story of 
that epistle, and that which led St. Cyprian into this ex- 
pression, was this. Cornelius, then chosen pope, expostulates 
with St. Cyprian, that his letters to Rome were directed only 
to the clergy there, and not to him ; and takes it ill, as if 
St. Cyprian had thereby seemed to disapprove his election. 
St. Cyprian replies, that by reason of the schism moved then 
by Novatian, it was uncertain in Afric which of the two had 
the more canonical right to the see of Rome, and that there- 
fore he named him not : but yet that during this uncertainty, 
he exhorted all that sailed thither, ut ecclesicc catholicce 
radicem et matricem agnoscerent et tenerent ; that in all their 
carriage they should acknowledge, and so hold themselves 
unto, the unity of the catholic church, which is the root and 
matrix of it, and the only way to avoid participation in the 
schism. And that this must be St. Cyprian's meaning, I 
shall thus prove. First, because this could not be his mean- 
ing or intention, that the see of Rome was the root or matrix 
of the catholic church. For if he had told them so, he had 
left them in as great or greater difficulty than he found 
them. For there was then an open and an apparent schism 
in the church of Rome ; two bishops, Cornelius and Novatian ; 

a Supra .35. num.IX. Other churches That is, not simply of all churches, but 

beside the Roman are called matres of all in that patriarchate. And so 

and originates ecclesice, as in Tertull. Rome is the head of all in the Roman 

de Prescript, advers. Haeres. cap, 21. patriarchate. 

Etecclesia Hierosolymitana quse aliarum b Et ecclesiae catholicae radicem et 

omnium mater : TTJS Se ye /xTjrpo's, &c. matricem agnoscerent et tenerent. S. 

Theodoret, Hist. Eccles. lib. v. cap. 9. Cypr. lib. iv. epist. 8. 
ex libello synodico a Concil. Constan- c Edit. Basiliens. 1530. AndSimanca 

tinopol. 2. transmisse ad concilium sub also applies this speech of St. Cyprian to 

Damaso turn Romae coactum. Et Con- Rome, tit. 24. . 17. And so also Pame- 

stantinopolitanaecclesia dicitur omnium lius upon St. Cyprian. But they wrong 

aliarum caput. Cod. lib i. tit. 2. leg. 24. him. 

X 2 

308 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. two congregations, which respectively attended and observed 
them. So that a perplexed question must needs have divided 
their thoughts, which of these two had been that root and 
matrix of the catholic church. Therefore, had St. Cyprian 
meant to pronounce Rome the root and matrix of the catholic 
church, he would never have done it at such a time, when 
Rome itself was in schism. Whereas in the other sense, the 
counsel is good and plain ; namely, that they should hold 
themselves to the unity and communion of the catholic church, 
which is the root of it. And then necessarily they were to 
suspend their communion there, till they saw how the catholic 
church did incline, to approve or disapprove the election of 
the one or the other. And thus St. Cyprian frees himself to 
Cornelius from the very least touch of schism. Secondly, 
because this sense comes home to d Baronius : for he affirms, 
that St. Cyprian and his colleagues the African bishops did 
communionem suspender e, suspend their communion, until they 
heard by Caldonius and Fortunatus whose the undoubted 
right was. So it seems St. Cyprian gave that counsel to these 
travellers which himself followed. For if Rome, during the 
schism, and in so great uncertainty, had yet been radix ec- 
clesice catholica?, root of the catholic church of Christ, I would 
fain know how St. Cyprian, so great and famous an assertor of 
the churches unity, durst once so much as think of suspending 
communion with her. Thirdly, because this sense will be 
plain also by other passages out of other epistles of St. Cyprian. 
For writing to Jubaianus an African bishop against the 
Novatians, who then infested those parts, and durst rebap- 
tize catholic Christians, he saith thus: " e But we, who hold 
the head and root of one church, do know for certain, and 
believe, that nothing of this is lawful out of the catholic 
church ; and that of baptism, which is but one, we are the 
head, where he himself was at first baptized, when he held the 
ground and verity of divine unity/ 1 Now I conceive it is all 
one, or at least as argumentative to all purposes, to be caput 
or radix baptismatis, head or root of baptism, as head or root 

d Baron. Annal. 254. num. 64, where et baptismatis quod est unum caput nos 

he cites this epistle. esse ubi et ipse baptizatus prius fuerat, 

e Nos autem qui ecclesiae unius caput quando divinae unitatis, et rationem et 

et radicem tenemus, pro certo scimus, veritatem tenebat. S. Cypr. ad Jubaian. 

et credimus, nihil extra ecclesiam licere, epist. 73. edit. Pamel. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 309 

of the church ; for there is but one baptism, as well as but Sect. 38. 
one church, and that is the entrance into this. And St. 
Cyprian affirms and includes himself, nos esse caput, that we 
are the head of baptism. Where yet (I pray observe it) he 
cannot by nos, we, mean his own person, (though if he did, he 
were the more opposite to Rome;) much less can he mean the 
Roman church, as it is a particular, and stands separate from 
others: for then how could he say nos esse caput, that we 
are the head ? Therefore he must needs mean the unity and 
society of the church catholic, which the Novatians had then 
left, and whereof he and his church were still members. Be- 
sides, most manifest it is, that he calls that church caput bap- 
tismatis, the head of baptism, where Novatian was baptized ; 
(they are his own words ;) and probable it is that was Rome, 
because that schismatic was a Roman priest. And yet for all 
this St. Cyprian says, Nos esse caput baptismatis, that we are 
the head of baptism, though he were at Carthage. By which 
it is plain, that as caput is parallel to radix and matrix, so 
also that by caput, the head of baptism, he includes, together 
with Rome, all the other members of the church universal. 
Again : St. f Cyprian writes to Cornelius and censures the schis- 
matical carriage of the Novatians at Rome. And tells him 
further, that he had sent Caldonius and Fortunatus to " labour 
peace in that church, that so they might be reduced to, and 
composed in the unity of the catholic church. But because 
the obstinate and inflexible pertinacy of the other party had 
not only refused radicis et matris sinum, the bosom of their 
mother and embracings of their root, but the schism increasing 
and growing raw to the worse, hath set up a bishop to itself," 
&c. Where it is observable, and I think plain, that St. Cy- 
prian employed his legates, not to bring the catholic church to 
the communion of Rome, but Rome to the catholic church. 
Or to bring the Novatians not only to communicate with 
Cornelius, but with the church universal, which was therefore 
head and root in St. Cyprian's judgment, even to Rome itself, 
as well as to all other, great, ancient, or even apostolical 

f Elaborarent ut ad catholicae ec- pertinacia non tantum radicis et matris 

clesiae unitatem scissi corporis membra sinum atque complexum recusavit, sed 

componerent, et Christianae charitatis etiam gliscente et in pejus recrudescente 

vinculum copularent. Sed quoniam discordia, episcopum sibi constituit, &c. 

diversae partis obstinata et inflexibilis S. Cypr. lib. ii. epist. 10. 

310 Archbishop Laud against 

churches. And this is yet more plain by the sequel; for 
when those his legates had laboured to bring those schismatics 
to the unity of the catholic church, yet he complains their 
labour was lost. And why ? Why ! because recusabant radicis 
et matris sinum, they refused the bosom of the root and the 
mother. Therefore it must needs be, that in St. Cyprian's 
sense these two, unitas catholics ecclesice, the unity of the 
catholic church, and radicis, or matricis sinus, or complexus, 
the bosom, or embracing of the root or the mother, are all 
one. And then radix and matrix are not words by which he 
expresses the Roman see in particular, but he denotes by 
them the unity of the church catholic. Fourthly, because 
Tertullian s seems to me to agree in the same sense. For, 
saith he, " these so many and great churches founded by 
the apostles, taken all of them together, are that one church 
from the apostles, out of which are all. So all are first, and 
all apostolic, while they all allow and prove unam unitatem, 
one unity." Nor can any possibly understand this of any par- 
ticular church, but subordinately. As St. Gregory Nazianzen 
says the church of Csesarea was h mater, the mother of almost 
all churches ; which must needs be understood of some neigh- 
bouring churches, not of the whole catholic church. And 
where 'Pamelius speaks of original and mother-churches, he 
names six and others, and Borne in the last place. Therefore 
certainly no particular church can be the root or matrix of 
the catholic ; but she is rooted in her own unity, down from 
the apostles, and nowhere else extra Deum. And this is fur- 
ther manifest by the irreligious act of the emperor Adrian. 
For he, intending to root out the faith of Christ, took this 
course : he consecrated simulacJirum Jovis, the image of 
Jupiter in the very place where Christ suffered, and profaned 
Bethlehem with the temple of Adonis: " k to this end, that 

g Tot ac tantae ecclesise, una est ilia upon Rhenanus, printed at Madrid, 

ab apostolis prima, ex qua omnes. Sic anno 1584. 

ornnes primee, et crimes apostolicte, dam h Greg. Nazian. says the church of 

ui:am omnes probant unitatern. Tertull. Caesarea was mater prope omnium er- 

de PHPSC. advers. Haer. cap. 20. Porro clesiarum. Epist. 18. 

unam esse primam apostolicam ; ex i Pamel. in Prescript, ad- 

qua reliqux. Hanc nulli loco affigit vers. Haeres. cap. 21. num. 129. 

B. Rhenanus Annot. in Argumento, k Ut quasi radix et fundameritum 

Tertull. de Prescript. &c. Nulli loco, ecdesife tolleretur, si in iis locis idola 

Therefore not at Rome. But these colerentur in quibus Christus natus est, 

words, Hanc nulli loco affigit, dele- &c. S. Paulinus Epist. 1 1. ad Severum. 
antur, snys the Spanish inquisition 

Fisher the Jesuit. 311 

the root, as it were, and the foundation of the church might Sect. 38. 
be taken away, if in those places idols might be worshipped, 
in which Christ himself was born and suffered," &c. By which 
it is most evident, that either Jerusalem was the root of the 
catholic church, if any particular church were so ; or rather, 
that Adrian was deceived, (as being an heathen he well might,) 
in that he thought the universal church had any particular or 
local root of its being ; or that he could destroy it all by 
laying it waste in any one place whatsoever. And St. Augus- 
tine, I think, is full for this, that the catholic church must have 
a catholic root or matrix too. For 1 he tells us, " That all 
heresies whatsoever went out de ilia, out of the catholic 
church ;" for de ilia there can be out of no other. For all 
heresies did not go out of any one particular church. He 
goes on : " They were cut off de vile, from this catholic vine 
still, as unprofitable branches; ipsa autem, but this catholic 
church remains in radice sua, in its own root, in its own vine, 
in its own charity," which must needs be as ample and as 
catholic as itself. Or else, were it any particular, all heretical 
branches could not be cut off from one root." And St. Augus- 
tine says again, " m That the Donatists did not consider that 
they were cut off from the root of the eastern churches :" 
Where you see again, it is still but one root of many churches : 
and that if any man will have a particular root of the catholic 
church, he must have it in the East, not in the West at 
Rome. And now lastly, besides this out of St. Cyprian to 
prove his own meaning, (and sure he is the best interpreter of 
himself,) and other assisting proofs, it is most evident, that in 
the prime and principal sense, the catholic church and her 
unity is the head, root, or matrix of Rome, and all other par- 
ticular churches ; and not Rome, or any other particular, the 
head, root, or matrix of it. For there is a double root of the 
church, as there is of all things else ; that is, radix essentice, 
the root, head, or matrix of its essence : and this is the prime 
sense ; for essence and being is first in all things. And then 

1 Hajreses omnes de ilia exierunt m Pars Donati non considerat se 

tanquam sarmenta inutilia de vite prae- praecisam esse a radice orientalium ec- 

cisa: ipsa autem manet in radice sua, clesiarum, &c. S.August. Epist. 170. 

&c. S. August, de Symb. ad Catechu- prin. 
men. lib. i. cap. 6. 

Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 38. there is radix existential, the root of its existence and formal 
being, which always presupposes being, and is therefore a 
senseless principal. Now to apply this. The catholic or 
universal church is, and must needs be, the root of essence 
and being to Rome and all other particulars. And this is the 
principal root, head, or matrix, that gives being. And Rome, 
but with all other particular churches, and no more than 
other patriarchal churches, was and is radix existentice, the 
root of the church's existence. And this agrees with that 
known and received rule in art ; That universals give essence 
to their particulars, and particulars supply their universals 
with existence. For as Socrates and every particular man 
borrow their essence from the species and definition of a man, 
which is universal; but this universal nature and being of 
man hath no actual existence, but in Socrates and all other 
particular men ; so the church of Rome, and every other par- 
ticular church in the world, receive their very essence and 
being of a church from the definition of the catholic universal 
church of Christ : but this universal nature and being of the 
church hath no actual existence but in Rome and all other 
particular churches, and equal existence in all her particulars. 
And should all the particular churches in the world fall away 
from Christ, save only one, (which God forbicl ;) yet the nature, 
essence, and being of the universal church, would both exist 
and subsist in that one particular. Out of all which to me 
most clear it is, that for the church's being, the catholic 
church, and that in unity (for ens et unum, being, and being 
one, are convertible) is radix, the root, head, matrix, fountain, 
or original (call it what you will) of Rome and all other par- 
ticular churches. But Rome is no more than other churches 
the root or matrix of the catholic church's existence, or place 
of her actual residence. And this I say for her existence 
only, not the purity or form of her existence, which is not 
here considered. But if the catholic she be not, nor the root 
of the catholic church, yet apostolic I hope she is. Indeed 
apostolic she is, as being the see n of one, and he a prime 

n Not as Bellarmine would have it, Notis Eccl. lib. iv. cap. 8. . J. For by 

with a " Hinc dicitur apostolica, quia in this reason, neither Jerusalem nor An- 

ea successio episcoporum ab apostolis tioch were in their times apostolic 

deducta est usque ad nos." Bellarm. de churches ; because succession of bishops 

Fisher the Jesuit. 313 

apostle : but then not apostolic, as the church is called in the Sect. 38. 
Creed, from all the apostles; no, nor the only apostolic. 
Visible. I may not deny, God hath hitherto preserved her, 
but for a better end, doubtless, than they turn it to ; but in- 
fallible she was never. Yet if that lady did as the Jesuit in 
his close avows, or others will rest satisfied with it, who can 
help it? Sure, none but God. And, by A. C.'s leave, this 
(which I said is no work for my pen) cannot be learned ; no, 
not of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church, much less 
of the Roman. For though the foundation be one and the 
same, and sufficiently known by scripture and the Creeds, yet 
for the building upon the foundation, the adding to it, the 
detracting from it, the joining other things with it, the grating 
upon it, each of these may be damnable to some and not to 
others, according to the knowledge, wisdom, means of infor- 
tnation, which some have and others want ; and according to 
the ignorance, simplicity, and want of information, which some 
others have and cannot help ; and according to the negli- 
gence, contempt, wilfulness, and malice, with obstinacy, which 
some have against the known truth. And all, or some of 
these, in different degrees, in every particular man ; and that 
in the whole latitude of mankind, from the most wise and 
learned in the school of Christ, to the simplest idiot, that hath 
been so happy as to be initiated into the faith by baptism. 
Now the church hath not this knowledge of all particulars, 
men, and conditions ; nor can she apply the conditions to the 
men, and therefore cannot teach just how far every man must 
believe, as it relates to the possibility or impossibility of his 
salvation in every particular. And that which the church 

hath not succeeded in them to this day. et reliquae ab apostolis fundatse. Tertull. 

De collegis agebatur qui possent, &c. de Prescript, advers. Haeret. cap. 32. 

judicio apostolicarum ecclesiarum cau- Percurre ecclesias apostolicas, &c. 

sam suam integram reservare. S.August. Habes Corinthum, Philippos, Thessa- 

Epist. 162. Jo. de Turrecrem. enumerat lonicenses, Ephesum, Romam. Ibid. cap. 

sex verbi hujus significationes. Quarum 32. Et Pamelius enumerat Hieroso- 

prima est : Apostolica dicitur quia in lymitanam, Antiochenam, Corinthiam, 

apostolis, &c. initiata est. Hos enim in- Philippensem, Ephesinam, Rornanam. 

stituit quasi fundamentum ecclesiae, &c. Pamel. ibid. cap. 21. num. 129. And it 

Jo. de Turrecrem. Summae lib. i. cap. may be observed, that so long ago Ter- 

18. Et quia originem sumpsit ab apo- tullian, and so lately Pamelius, should 

stolis, &c. Ibid. Ubi dicit etiam S. reckon Rome last. Quin et alia? ec- 

patres apposuisse hanc vocem aposto- clesiae quye ab his apostolic* etiam depu- 

licam in symbolo suo, supra symbolum tantur, ut soboles ecclesiarum aposto 

apostolorum. Ibid. licarum, &c. Tertull. ibid. cap. 20. 
o Ecclesiae apostolicae,utSmyrnaeorum, 

314 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect 38, 39. cannot teach, men cannot learn of her. She can teach the 
foundation, and men were happy if they would learn it, and 
the church more happy would she teach nothing but that as 
necessary to salvation; for certainly, nothing but that is 
necessary. Now then, whereas, after all this, the Jesuit tells 
us, that, 

$. Upon this and the precedent conferences, the lady 
rested in judgment fully satisfied (as she told a confi- 
dent friend) of the truth of the Roman church's faith : 
yet, upon frailty, and fear to offend the king, she yielded 
to go to church ; for which she was after very sorry, as 
some of her friends can testify. 

Sect. 39. i$, I. This is all personal. And how that honourable lady 
was then settled in conscience, how in judgment, I know not. 
This, I think, is made clear enough, that that which you said 
in this and the precedent conferences could settle neither, 
unless in some that were settled or settling before. As little 
do I know what she told any confident friend of her approv- 
A. C. p. 73. ing the Roman cause ; no more whether it were frailty or 
fear, or other motive, that made her yield to go to church; 
nor how sorry she was for it, nor who can testify that sorrow. 
This I am sure of, if she repent, and God forgive her other 
sins, she will more easily be able to answer for her coming to 
church, than for her leaving of the church of England, and 
following the superstitions and errors which the Roman church 
hath added in point of faith and the worship of God. For 
the lady was then living when I answered thus. 

II. Now whereas I said, the lady would far more easily 
be able to answer for her coming to church than for her leav- 
A. C. p. 73. ing the church of England ; to this A. C. excepts, and says, 
" That I neither prove nor can prove, that it is lawful for one 
(persuaded especially as the lady was) to go to the protestant 
church." There is a great deal of cunning and as much 
malice in this passage, but I shall easily pluck the sting out of 
the tail of this wasp. And first, I have proved it already 
through this whole discourse, and therefore can prove it, that 
the church of England is an orthodox church ; and therefore 
with the same labour it is proved, that men may lawfully go 
unto it and communicate with it ; for so a man not only may 

Fislier the Jesuit. 315 

but ought to do with an orthodox church. And a Romanist Sect. 39. 
may communicate with the church of England without any 
offence in the nature of the thing thereby incurred. But if 
his conscience through misinformation check it, he should do 
well in that case rather to inform his conscience than forsake 
any orthodox church whatsoever. Secondly, A. C. tells me 
plainly, " That I cannot prove that a man so persuaded as 
the lady was may go to the protestant church ;" that is, that 
a Roman catholic may not go to the protestant church. Why, 
I never went about to prove that a Roman catholic, being and 
continuing such, might, against his conscience, go to the pro- 
testant church. For these words, " a man persuaded as the 
lady is, 11 are A. C.'s words, they are not mine. Mine are not 
simply that the lady might, or that she might not ; but com- 
parative they are, that she might more easily answer to God 
for coming to than for going from the church of England. 
And that is every way most true. For in this doubtful time 
of hers, when, upon my reasons given, she went again to 
church ; when yet soon after (as you say, at least) she was 
sorry for it ; I say, at this time she was in heart and re- 
solution a Roman catholic, or she was not : if she were not, 
(as it seems by her doubting she was not then fully resolved,) 
then my speech is most true, that she might more easily 
answer to God for coming to service in the church of England 
than for leaving it ; for a protestant she had been, and for 
aught I knew, at the end of this conference so she was ; and 
then it was no sin in itself to come to an orthodox church ; 
nor no sin against her conscience, she continuing a protestant, 
for aught which then appeared to me. But if she then were 
a Roman catholic, (as the Jesuit and A. C. seem confident she 
was,) yet my speech is true too. For then she might more 
easily answer to God for coining to the church of England, 
which is orthodox, and leaving the church of Rome, which is. 
superstitious, than by leaving the church of England, commu- 
nicate with all the superstitions of Rome. Now the cunning 
and the malignity of A. C. lies in this : he would fain have 
the world think that I am so indifferent in religion as that I 
did maintain, the lady, being conscientiously persuaded of the 
truth of the Romish doctrine, might yet, against both her 

316 Archbishop Laud against 

Sect. 39. conscience and against open and avowed profession, come to 
the protestant church. 

HI. Nevertheless, in hope his cunning malice would not 
be discovered, against this (his own sense that is, and not mine) 
he brings divers reasons. As first, it is not lawful for one 
affected as that lady was ; that is, for one that is resolved 
of the truth of the Roman church, to go to the church of 
England, there and in that manner to serve and worship 

. c. p. 73. God ; " because, 11 saith A. 0., " that were to halt on both 
sides, to serve two masters, and to dissemble with God and 
the world." Truly, I say the same thing with him, and that 
therefore neither may a protestant, that is resolved in con- 
science that the profession of the true faith is in the church of 
England, go to the Romish church, there and in that manner 
to serve and worship God. Neither need I give other answer, 
because A.C. urges this against his own fiction, not my asser- 
tion. Yet since he will so do, I shall give a particular 
answer to each of them. And to this first reason of his I 
say thus, That to believe religion after one sort and to prac- 
tise it after another, and that in the main points of worship, 
the sacrament and invocation, is to halt on both sides, to serve 
two masters, and to dissemble with God and the world. And 
other than this I never taught, nor ever said that which 
might infer the contrary. But, A. C., give me leave to tell 
you, your fellow Jesuit P Azorius affirms this in express 
terms ; and what do you think, can he prove it ? Nay, not 
Azorius only, but other priests and Jesuits here in England, 
either teach some of their proselytes, or else some of them 
learn it without teaching, that though they be persuaded 
as this lady was, that is, though they be Roman catholics, yet 

P Quinto quaeritur, An ubi catholici tholicis facere: quia praestant solum 

una cum haereticis versantur, licitum sit obedientiae officium. Sin jubeat, ut eo 

catholico adire templa ad quae haeretici symbolo simul religionem haereticam 

conveniunt, eorum interesse conventi- profiteantur, parere non debent. Qua>- 

bus, &c. Respondeo : Si rei naturam res iterum, An liceat catholico obedire, 

spectemus, non est per se malum, sed modo publice asseverat se id efficere, so- 

sua natura indifferens, &c. Et postea : him nt principi suo obediat, non ut 

Si princeps haeresi laboret, et jubeat sectam haereticam profiteatur? Re- 

subditos catholicos sub pcena mortis, vel spondeo : Quidam id licere arbitrantur, 

contiscationis bonorum frequentare tern- ne bona ejus publicentur, vel vita eri- 

pla haereticorum, quid turn faciendum ? piatur. Quod sane probabiliter dici vi- 

Respondeo : Si jubeat tantum, ut omnes detur. Azorius Instit. Moral, p. i. lib. 

mandato suo obediant, licitum est ca- viii. c. 27. p. 1299. edit. Paris. 1616. 

Fisher the Jesuit. 317 

either to gain honour or save their purse, they may go to the Sect. 39. 
protestant cluirch, just as the Jesuit here says " the lady did 
out of frailty and fear to offend the king." Therefore I pray 
A. C., if this be gross dissimulation both with God